Representatives of the Navajo Nation are asking NASA to delay an upcoming lunar launch after the space agency failed to consult them over plans to send human remains to the moon.
On January 8th, the Pittsburgh-based aerospace company Astrobiotic is set to launch the Peregrine lunar lander, which will deliver payloads from both Celestis and Elysium Space, companies which "bury" cremated human remains in space.
Now, the Navajo Nation is imploring NASA to stop the upcoming launch due to the fact that the moon is a sacred place in their – and many other – Indigenous cultures.
Navajo representatives say that dumping human remains on the moon amounts to nothing less than the desecration of a holy site.
The Moon as a Holy Site
In Navajo mythology, the moon, known as "Tł'éhonaa'éí," plays a significant role in their creation stories and cosmology.
According to Navajo beliefs, the moon, along with the sun, is seen as a pivotal figure in the creation and ordering of the universe. The moon is often personified and is believed to be a protector and guide. It's seen as a symbol of change, growth, and the passage of time, reflecting the natural cycles of life and the universe.
The history behind this belief is rooted in the Navajo creation stories, where celestial bodies like the sun and moon are not just inanimate objects in the sky but are imbued with spiritual significance. These stories depict the journey of the Navajo people through different worlds and highlight the moon's role in guiding and protecting them during these journeys.
"Sacred Desecration"
Navajo Nation president Buu Nygren recently sent off an urgent letter to NASA and the U.S. Department of Transportation, pleading with them to cease the cremation payload at once.
“We believe that both NASA and the USDOT should have engaged in consultation with us before agreeing to contract with a company that transports human remains to the Moon or authorizing a launch carrying such payloads,” wrote Nygren in his letter.
“It is crucial to emphasize that the moon holds a sacred position in many Indigenous cultures, including ours,” he explained. “We view it as a part of our spiritual heritage, an object of reverence and respect. The act of depositing human remains and other materials, which could be perceived as discards in any other location, on the Moon is tantamount to desecration of this sacred space.”
Broken Promises?
Numerous memorandums and executive orders have been issued in recent years promising to consult with tribal leaders on issues that impact them, most recently the “Memorandum on Tribal Consultation and Strengthening Nation-to-Nation Relationships,” issued by President Biden in 2021.
That memorandum pledged to more fully involve Tribal communities in policy matters that might affect them, and another 2021 memorandum promised to “ improve the protection of, and tribal access to, Indian sacred sites.”
Just a few years later, Navajo leaders say the federal government isn’t holding to their agreement. President Nygren believes that the upcoming lunar launch – and the lack of communication with Tribal leaders about them – explicitly violates these memorandums.
Sacred sites are defined as "places that afford views of important areas of land, water, or,” he says, “of the sky and celestial bodies."
Dark Side of the Moon
The Navajo and NASA have had a complicated relationship. While lunar missions have obviously been a key aspect of the agency mission since its inception, NASA has had to reckon with Indigenous groups' beliefs about the moon as a sacred site.
In 1998, the two groups butted heads over the lunar burial of scientist Eugene Shoemaker, an incident which President Nygren cited in his recent letter.
“At the time, Navajo Nation President Albert Hale voiced our objections regarding this action,” Nygren wrote. “In response, NASA issued a formal apology and promised consultation with tribes before authorizing any further missions carrying human remains to the Moon.”
“The moon is revered, and it regulates life cycles, according to Navajo traditions and stories,” wrote Hale at the time. “To send something like that over there is sacrilege.”
A Frayed Relationship
Since then, NASA has done some work to recognize Navajo beliefs.
They even produced a short film a few years back sharing perspectives of Navajo elders on space and lunar exploration:
And yet, despite these efforts, a similar conflict is playing out again.
What do you make of the situation? It seems highly unlikely that NASA will stop the upcoming launch, but did they break their pledge to the Navajo Nation by failing to consult them beforehand?
Is this just another broken promise on behalf of the United States government to Indigenous communities?
Many Indigenous groups apply religious significance to the moon; should NASA better take this into account when planning missions?
167 comments
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James Mounts
You would think by now an American Indian would have learned not to take the word of the U.S.government.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
The modern US government has been fairly decent, all told, to the modern Native Americans. We white devils have come a long way. Now you need to start posting about how we "owe" black people reparations for slavery and we "owe" Native Americans money for mistreatment. Right? Only problem is that no living "black" American was ever a slave and no living "white" American was ever a slave-owner or slave-trader. We were all born here, all the same, in the same effed up situation. Same with Native Americans. Their ancestors are all dead and our ancestors are all dead. HEY! I HAVE A PERFECT SOLUTION TO THIS IDIOTIC LINE OF LIBERAL BRAIN-DEAD REASONING THAT LIVING PEOPLE OWE SOMEBODY FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO ANOTHER GENERATION ENTIRELY! Let's dig up their ancestors and dig up our ancestors and let 'em all FIGHT IT OUT! Winner gets a billion trillion sextillion dollars!
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Robert James Ruhnke
Ah. More ignorant and bigoted bluster from a conservative “spiritual” secularist lol. Wage slavery is still alive and well, people are still being red lined into poverty. Billionaires make their money from no hard work, and have fanboys like yourself cheering them on. Leave it to conservatives to aim for the moon but blowing up before they even get off the ground. Calm down boomer.
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Pastor Jody S.
I'm a proud Native American. All I can say is - what else is new?
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Linda M T Mary Teressa Edwards
I totally agree with the Navajo It's bad enough the damage that has been done to our planet Earth and the debris that is scattered through out the Universe, This get rich quick schemes is typical.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
As am I. I was born here, sport, same as you. My ancestors have been here since the 1500s. Yes, your ancestors have been here much longer, but that makes us different only in degree NOT in kind.
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Kilted Minister
If you're in the United States or Canada, which I suspect you are, I'll bite...If your ancestors come from Wales like you claim, then unless they were members of the Lost Colony of Roanoke and you've managed to somehow trace your genealogy directly to them which no scientist has been able to do, then you sir, are a bald faced liar. The first permanent English settlement in North American was Jamestown, VA in 1607.
I'm eagerly awaiting your next fallacy that I can scientifically debunk.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
LOL nope. I meant to type 1600s. 1500s is a typo I didn't see until you pointed it out. I no longer recall the exact date, but I do recall it was the late 1600s. My eldest sister did the genealogical work 25 years ago when I was a fairly young man of 45. She also discovered that we are descendants of Saint John Thwing, of Wales. We're not Catholics, but I seem to recall he is the patron saint of pregnant women or women in labor. We are also descendants of the poor sap who quarried the rock for the first Mormon temple in Ohio. He was a very early convert to the nonsense, but he managed to awaken from his religion induced stupor and return to normalcy. Religion is mythology plus superstition. Not my cuppa tea.
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Russel A. Kester
What I find interesting about this article is the thinking of the American Indian tribe(s) that made this request to not bury human ashes on the moon based on the tribes' beliefs as to the sacredness of the moon. How incredibly self-centered. For example, if I think Mount Everest is sacred does that give me the right to demand that no one climb Mount Everest? I don't think it does. Many people believe that the Holy Land is sacred. Does that mean that it is in fact sacred? The thinking behind such statements as this or that a thing, an object, or a place is sacred is interesting to contemplate and consider. It says much more about the person's making the statement then it does about the actual item or place in question. What does make a person, a place, or an object sacred?
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
How marvelous to read the writings of someone who gives reason, facts, and logical arguments the top shelf! I look forward to reading more of same.
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Rev. Elizabeth
I feel that if there is more than one indigenous culture who feel about the moon being holy to them, it is worth listening to what they have to say. Personally I don’t understand why you would want to scatter a person’s ashes on the moon. What significance is it to the United Stares and is it worth hurting these cultures here on earth? They will lose a lot of backing for future endeavors if they don’t take into consideration on what they are doing are hurting many people in their hearts, mind and soul. I say leave them in the space capsule. They flew to the moon but don’t let them exit the cabin. They can fly back home and find them another place to rest in peace.
Thank you, Rev. Elizabeth S. Arsenault 5 Jan 2024-
Paul
The United States doesn't control the Moon. And the rest of the World doesn't do what Americans want. No-one owns or controls the Moon. The Europeans, Russians, Chinese, in fact any private organisation that is developing space flight can and will provide the service if there is the demand. And has no obligation to consult with any group with religious based objections.
I can't see the point myself but it's up to others what they want to do. What if I say the Moon is sacred to me and vital that my remains rest on the Moon when it is technically possible. Does my belief have less impact than a Navajo belief? Not at all. Or are we into picking and choosing which beliefs are valid and which are not, and who then decides.
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Emma La Grutta De Santis
"human remains"
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Leave it to a female to emote rather than think. Rev. Elizabeth, we need brain power to solve probs not heartstrings. The Moon belongs to NO ONE and NO ONE NATION. It belongs to the PEOPLE OF THE EARTH. It doesn't matter what ANY religion sez or believes about the Moon. It is what it is. What is it? A ball of dead rock 1,079 miles in diameter, hurtling through space as it orbits the earth. It isn't a deity even if the whole universe of sentient beings worship it as a god. Mythology + superstition = religion. Reason + intuition = spirituality.
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Stacey Owens
If NASA start to bury people on one the moon, it will cause an affect to the moon surface, not to shine its light. It will effect the earth in many ways and the people on the earth. Please understand, I don't worship the moon, but I do believe it has a cause and affect on the earth. Just like the sun.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, and it really uck fup the green cheese, too.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
The moon in absolutely no way produces its own light....
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Kilted Minister
Scientifically speaking, the Moon has no source of self-illumination. The "shine" you speak of is the Sun's light reflecting off the Moon. The phases of the Moon are determined by the corresponding positions of the Earth and Moon, and how much of the Moon is blocked by Earth's shadow.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
To be this dazzlingly ignorant you must be a millennial! The Moon is small, only 1,079 miles in diameter. That's 1,164,241 miles² (1 million, 164 thousand, 241 miles SQUARED! That's SQUARED not square miles. I'm guessing higher math is not one of your strong points.) It would take millions of years to cover the surface of the Earth with bones if we put them on the surface. We can cover the far side first. (We don't see the far side of the Moon. Have you ever noticed the Moon always presents the same side to our view?)
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Oopsers I mean "cover the surface of the Moon with bones" not da Urf. ;-)
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LB
Nathaniel, what is your reason for being demeaning and use word calling of another? Can you not just state your facts?
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Parson Golden
Seems simple enough to me. Space is a big place, we have no need to litter the moon with human remains, we are already littering it enough with requisite science experiments. I have faith that one day technology will allow us to retrieve what has been left on the moon by the Apollo missions and place it into a museum where it belong. Though they are rapidly deteriorating and would like not survive a trip back to earth, perhaps the museum will be on the moon.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ahhh, garbage to house and memorialize garbage?
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DubSpell
AKA: Earth.
We don't need a second one. The fact that we've utterly trashed this planet points to the obvious fact that we have no business spreading it elsewhere.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Correct. We have no such NEED. But some of us have a DESIRE or WISH to do so. I would myself like to be buried on the Moon and NO RELIGION (and NO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE) has the RIGHT to tell me I cannot do so "because the Moon is holy to us and we believe it is a god." Jeez, kid. If we find out that the Moon will blow up and kill us all if we place human remains on it, okay. We shouldn't do it. But because of some religious people believe thus-and-so? NO! Should we teach Creation Science in public schools because millions of 'Mericans believe in it? No? Why? It's the same reasoning. Unga bunga wooi wooi wunga! Unga bunga BOO!
Mythology + superstition = religion. Reason = intuition = spirituality.
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Parson Golden
The fact that you simply think your “desire or wish” is more important than anyone else’s is just a blatant demonstration of white privilege.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
I do not think so. I think one person gets one vote. That's fine by me but I suspect it is not fine by a bleeding-heart liberal who thinks we "owe" something to people who were never slaves or never had their land stolen from them. You know anyone like that, sport? If so, tell 'em I said they're a Loser. Thanks bro! :-)
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LB
Nathaniel, again you turn to child-like actions to make your assumptions.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
The landers and rovers are not deteriorating on the Moon. There is no wind or rain to cause erosion or rust. These artifacts will be just fine for...oh...a couple more years anyway.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
All superstition-based religions, are at best, attempts to personify nature; hence, the only religion, that’s in no way supernatural, and, the only known religion able to actually prove the existence, of what’s so far, the only demonstrable provable God — is Secular Humanist Pantheism, which, in a nutshell, means that God and the Cosmos (as well as nature) are all various versions of the same thing. Ergo, human dust, transported to the moon, are returned to the same dust, as is all other dust, to be used over and over again, as is sewage water, flushed into the upper Mississippi River. And, as all human remains are, in one way or another, going to wind up in the cosmological stewpot, and because “sacredness” exists only in the minds of the beholders, the Earth’s moon should be kept as free from any types of human garbage as possible.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Beautifully put Mr. Dusenbury.
SOJ, wrong. We are still animals, our tools may look shiny, and the tool of religion has blinded you to that fact. We are still connected to nature, if we kill our planet, we will go with it. Now then, we’ve come a long way, and we’ve come to a point technologically we could escape or reverse what was done. Before the advent of modern medicine, we were still being killed off by diseases. Infant and child mortality was also still extremely high. That has nothing to do with religion. Despite religion, we’ve found ways to adapt nature to our needs, yes. But we are still dependent on it. Your view reeks of the ego centric nonsense that surrounds Social Darwinism, which has been plaguing the Christian community for too many decades now.
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ServantOfJudgement
Not so fast Timothy and Robert.
Not once did I mention religion. It appears that the non religious aren't happy unless we add religion. You seem to thrive on the religion you claim to loathe. Very very strange indeed.
The technology we develope is either copied and enhanced a trillion trillion fold or we create it from our own imagination which makes no reference to the natural world other that interaction with it. If one attempts to compare man to the animal kingdom, he MUST nullify man's supernatural mind in the comparison. Once the biased individuals have nullified man's mind he can neatly squeeze us into the animal box that he so deeply desires to be in. The truth is, even animals don't treat nature like humans. When we become the animals you want us to be, we even put actual animals to shame with our animalistic behavior.
The amazing part of all this is we three agree in principle that were terrible to the planet. I'm able to see the agreement but it appears the religion you don't believe in has covered your eyes from that fact.
Oh, you can call yourself an animal all you want, I'm fine with that. Lots of smart folks call themselves animals and some dumb ones do too. Believe as you will, do as the furries do, I hear they're fairly close to the feeding trough. I do empathize though. I thought I was an animal untill I realized I wasn't.
Delivery from ignorance is bliss.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Because religion is another tool in man’s belief belt. I use to think like you. Think ourselves better or above animals. We aren’t. You’re just as precarious, fickle, and prone to chimp noises as the rest of us. Your willful ignorance of that is usually cause by a deeply rooted belief in religion. That’s why we bring it up. Playing coy, whilst being obtuse isn’t a good look for you, SOJ.
We copy from nature all the time, none of our ideas are original and that’s okay. If we hadn’t our species would still be in the trees. We saw tooth and claw, and came up with spears and knives. We saw lightning strike grass and catch it on fire so harnessed the spark. We prolly saw a dead water buffalo floating on water came up with boats.
Nature destroying itself happens all the time SOJ. Destruction is as much part of the natural world as is creation. You cannot have one without the other. Without forest fires certain plants can’t grow. We may agree that humans are terrible to the planet, but how we fix that is where we differ. Your lot push mass genocide, religious wars, and a whole lot of shame and harm to get what you want. Making you the most predatory animalistic of us whilst ironically being willfully ignorant of that fact. You’ll never evolve past Bronze Age programming. You may be blissful, but the rest of us are tired of y’all screwing up life for the rest of us. Y’all can go to Mars and play super organism there.
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert,
Oh I know we can be as animals, actually we can sink much farther than animals ever could. One might even say we do animal the right way.
The Archimedes principal is a real chore to find in nature, let me know if you find an archenemies water lift in a cave somewhere. I searched wor dish washing machine seeds but didn't have too much luck, maybe they're out of season. I had a hamster that would lay walkie talkie eggs but I forgot to feed it transistors from the garden so it left in a laser beam.
Indeed mankind does copy and enhance natural things. Mankind also creates from nothing with no natural reference as I've demonstrated. We don't appear to have a limit, not yet. We are unique on the planet and so far in the cosmos. There is nothing like us anywhere when we measure ourselves in totality against any other life form discovered.
My idea of fixing the planet is void of genocide including abortion, void of war and void of total global conversion to Christianity unless Jesus does it. Christians pollution every bit as good as an atheist does.
Here are my thoughts: Stop consumerism. Get off of fossil fuels as quickly and reasonably as possible. Development of automated recycling systems to recover 100% of all human generated waste, eliminate livestock mega farms and return to a morally acceptable practice. Stop dealing with nations that belligerently pollute, dump and enslave. Stop waging war but for self defense. Stop or drastically reduce using plastic for drinking containers and other single use items. Clean up the Pacific floating trash islands immediately.
We still agree bro. That's not a bad thing to me but maybe to you it is.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Robert, how is putting human remains on the Moon going to kill our planet?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Never said it would. Though, maybe we should take a minute and stop being so egotistical in thinking we need to turn the moon into a graveyard. With the way we go to the stars now we dump lots and lots of extra chemicals into the atmosphere. We still don’t fully understand the long term ramifications of it. I have mixed feelings about their claim. erring on the side of caution isn’t a bad thing.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Indeed, you never wrote any such thing. I stand corrected! Thank you, Robert.
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ServantOfJudgement
Do you find spaceship in nature William? Are spaceship natural? They travel faster and with more directed precision than anything in nature, therefore spaceships are supernatural by definition. Who designed and constructed these supernatural devices? A creature that is also beyond nature, namely Man. Man is by nature is above nature and therefore supernatural. Man has transcended nature long before the inkpen could jot down his accomplishments.
Nature is the servant of the supernatural Man.
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Timothy C Stone
Man is not above nature. Man tries to believe we are above the natural world because we try to control it. Man is not 'supernatural' man is unnatural. In general what man has done to this planet is unnatural. We have left millions of dollars of junk on the moon, we have thousands of unnatural satellites orbiting our planet. If not for man this planet would be a balanced natural eco-system. That being said, I love the fact that we are finding ways to reach for the stars. I am in awe of our space telescopes. But, where ever 'modern western man treads he leaves pollution. "Take only memories, leave only footprints.” The quote originated from Chief Seattle. I don't know, but it seems that progress for modern man = destruction. NASA will not stop, there is money to be made. It's all BS anyway. "... $12,500 for one gram of cremated remains, and up to approximately $37,500 for seven grams."
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Spaceship in nature? Lub dat inglick.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Man is not above nature. Man has simply raised the bar of what is ‘natural’. The first egg-laying species did something that, before it, was ‘ not natural’.
Odd, but all new stuff is somewhat unnatural and yet after a while it becomes natural.
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ServantOfJudgement
If we believe in natural evolution we must assign man as an animal. We have no other options. That means we're forced to nullify all of his extraordinarily astronomical differences from the entire animal kingdom including our outrageous and unique rate of evolution. I'm not willing to throw out that sort of data, Im trying to get to the truth before I die in case it matters after I die. Sure it's true we've got a similar chassis to animals, we've all got to move around in the same environment although we move around better than any animal we've encountered. My provable opinion of our superiority over nature doesn't mean we can be belligerent to nature and it's animals rather we have a phenomenal responsibility to care for it.
I wish we could all see that regardless of the why we all feel we should care for nature dearly that we all agree we should. At the end of the day mankind is the steward of Earth either by chance or appointment, we are.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@SOJ “ If we believe in natural evolution we must assign man as an animal. We have no other options. That means we're forced to nullify all of his extraordinarily astronomical differences from the entire animal kingdom including our outrageous and unique rate of evolution.”
I agree that humans are just another animal, there are no options other than to do so. However, how does it follow that we have to nullify all other differences? And the differences are not ‘astronomical’. Biologically speaking we share 99% of the DNA with chimps. Some researchers say a bit less but regardless it is above 95% or so.
Sure, man’s progress has enabled him to uniquely screw up the planet. There’s a hypothesis that states that’s why we haven’t been contacted by other civilizations, that advancement gets to this point, or somewhere after this point, and the civilization destroys itself. And that it’s a rule rather than the exception.
I, too, would like to know what’s going on, the truth of the matter, to look behind the curtain. But I’m not going to use the belief system of Bronze Age goat herders as my play book.
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ServantOfJudgement
Z
The farthest an animal can accurately see is approximately 2 miles. The fastest an animal can travel is around 180mph.
Man can see an atom and he can see several thousand light-years with stunning detail. He can even see the atmospheric conditions of planets hundreds of light-years away. Man can travel around 400,000 mph so far. There's a tremendous urge in people to say theses things don't count, they're not our true ability. When we see a raccoon launch a deep sea probe into the Marina Trench just to find out what's down there I'll entertain the denial of our cosmically unique features.
The DNA similarities always makes me think of systems that have low sample rates. Things start to look the same when we do that. I know we've made many breakthroughs with the stuff but it seems like we're missing half the picture although we think we're looking at the whole thing. I've read were a 95% match for pig DNA. I've raised hogs. People can be hogs but hogs can't be people. Essential im hearing the only difference between mankind and hogs is their shape. Near matches in DNA yet no likeness in appearance. I often consider what might we be missing. Possibly the "program" carried by sperm? Thus far we don't know how to measure life waveforms or the data they carry.
If evolution is the correct path, perhaps electrical life originated from crystalline growths which do generate electrical pulses when pressurized. Conversely, if creation is the correct path it would explain why Jesus was so different from his peers. Dna from man and a life waveform from a non-human, namely the extracosmic entity some call God.
We may never know, we may have always known.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
180 mph is the fastest? No. The lowly hummingbird has been clocked going faster than sound, well over 600 mph. As to a two-mile limit on animal eyesight, where did you read that? Wikipedia? You are an animal, yes? The Andromeda galaxy can be seen by anyone in the northern hemisphere, and it is 2.5 million light years away! A light year is the distance light travels in a year, 671 million miles per hour, or 186,272 mps. If you live 25 miles from a tall mountain you (and any animals that can stand taller than the surrounding grass) can see it.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@SOJ
I’ve been considering my response to your comment. But I took a vacation to Hawaii for a week and didn’t want to do it then and now that I’m back home. I’m just not into it. However, a few comments..
Man can’t actually see, or do the things that you say. Man is simply made things that do those things for him, and these things are an accumulation of extremely small advances over an incredibly long period of time. Although I am prone to say that the Bible was written by a bunch of bronze age Nomadic desert goat herders there was still technology during that time. Of course the Egyptians seem to have cornered the market on such. But even then those technologies were developed from very small innovations over thousands of years. I guess it started with something as simple as using sharp rock, someone found to cut the skin on a dead animal. Then some guy started walking around and that dead bloody skin because it was cold. But they found out that that made you stink pretty bad. So somebody came up with using another rock to scrape all that **** off the inside of the skin. Little stuff build up. Check out TV show from the 80s called connections, hosted by a guy named James Burke. Wonderful series with the idea of how small or sometimes not small developments and technology link together to form something that you really wouldn’t think was brought about by all those smaller inventions.
But one of the biggest reasons I wanted to write. This was because of two things you said, one in reference to how fast man can travel and two about raccoons, exploring the Mariana trench.
Man has not developed the ability to travel at 400,000 mph. Only about 25,000 mph. You’re off by a factor of about 20. And you combined that factor with raccoons exploring the Mariana trench
Well, a raccoon recently tried to explore the Mariana trench, and I don’t know if the factor was around 20 but had a lot of errors in it, and the submersible went POP!
Not all humans happen upon the small innovations that push mankind forward. Some of them are off by a factor of 20 and get turned into mush. Of course, just others just incorrectly manipulate existing data in an attempt to support a faulty hypothesis. And they don’t die, unless, of course, there’re a hypothesis is to build their own submersible.
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James Mounts
NASA, being a federal agency, is required by current interpretation of the Constitution not to let religions dictate policy. The best action today would be for NASA to find out what idiot first started to accommodate spiritualists, and fire his or her woke arse.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
It’s so sad that you and your ilk have no concept of what “woke” means. Your lack of education makes you look silly.
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Russel A. Kester
Elizabeth, you seemed very quick to respond negatively to James's comment. I noticed that you didn't provide your own definition of what woke means. Perhaps it is you that truly is the one who looks silly. So tell us, exactly, what you believe woke means or doesn't mean. Personally, I agree with James idea that whoever would have tried to enter into such an agreement with a tribe about their religious beliefs over the moon was not fit for their job. Certainly they had no such authority to enter into such discussions. So yes, they should have been fired.
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Catherine
@Russel A. Kester
1) Indigenous people don't have religions as we define those. So @James Mounts is talking apples and oranges.
2) He used 'woke' in such a way that he portrays himself as a racist. May be he is, though that self-portrayal doesn't appear to be the intent of his comment.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/woke/
"Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice. In mainstream use, woke can also more generally describe someone or something as being “with it.”
3) If NASA saw fit to previously take indigenous concerns seriously, there is a reason. And though NASA did see fit, it lied. That's messed up all kinds of ways, and particularly disrespectful.
“...NASA issued a formal apology and promised consultation with tribes before authorizing any further missions carrying human remains to the Moon.”
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Russel A. Kester
Catherine, thank you for that definition which is itself very woke. The key terms being 'racial discrimination', 'oppression', and 'injustice.' I prefer the Merriam-Webster online dictionary's second definition: " politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme." And this was, I believe, how James intended his usage of the word woke. And rightly so. Wokeism is a danger to our country and must be identified and confronted whenever and wherever it reads its ugly head.
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DubSpell
🤣🤣🤣 Change = DANGERZzz RUN ! ! !
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James Mounts
Elizabeth and Catherine are both illustrative of the typical leftist. When you can't criticize the message, criticize the messenger.
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Catherine
@Russel A. Kester @James Mounts
It appears votes for Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox's comment effectively represent more common perceptions.
As does DubSpell's comment above.
That the status quo is not working, is painfully obvious to most of the world. Do you prefer what provably does not work to looking for what might have a chance of working?
Also, Mr. Mounts, how does pinning left or right on someone you disagree with promote thoughtful considerations?
If it matters, more often I'm tagged as a centrist. And since I gave up confIating people with causes, I prefer to call it exercising critical thinking and common sense.
When change is obviously necessary, why shy away? Change is inevitable. No amount of fuss or running will stop change. Get used to it. Change is ever constant. Always front and center. Trying to stay stagnant will only become more excrutiatingly painful.
So carefully, one hand at a time, uncover your eyes and look around. Try to see the world as it is, not as you thought it was or want it to be. Those you diagree with and call 'woke' are doing that. Hence the breach between understandings, albeit it truly a smaller breach than appears.
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Russel A. Kester
Catherine, time will tell if your opinions stated above are correct or only reflect passing ideologies that society is just now realizing exist and how harmful they are to society. Woke ideologies and their accompanying social justice warriors do not represent the views and opinions of most Americans. At least not yet. They do reflect the opinions of those who went through an educational system that indoctrinated them while the rest of society was working to earn a living. Thanks to the performance of three female university presidents America is alerted and we are already seeing changes. The future might not be what you leftist activists envision.
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Bryant Keith Montgomery
Sad to say, but only white people don't understand Native American feelings on this issue.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
What the FRUCK do feelings have to do with reality? The MOON IS WHAT IT IS KID! No matter if you and every other human on the planet thinks it is made of green cheese and invented the automobile ITS A DEAD PIECE OF ROCK ORBITING THE EARTH! It has no atmosphere, no water, no life. ITS DEAD! ITS ROCK! IT DIDNT CREATE THE AUTOMOBILE IT ISNT MADE OF GREEN CHEESE AND IT AINT A DEITY!
Unga bunga woo woo wumbo bumba!
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Daniel Gray
sad to say that you dont either. I am listed by both the Eastern Cherokee Nation as well as the BIA as a Native American. Now can you say the same? As if you are not listed with the BIA, then you are not a Native American no matter what you claim
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
I'm of mainly Welsh descent kid. I don't know where yo got any idea I am a native American. Been hittin' that pipe?
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Colleen McAllister
The Moon does not belong to anybody. If the Native Americans don't want the moon "desecrated" then they should have spoken up before the first junk was left up there. Declaring something sacred does not make it so. Continue on NASA.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ Declaring something sacred does not make it so.” Agree. Like the bible being the word of god. Or god creating man. Or the US being a xtian nation.
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Catherine
@ Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Wishing I could add to what you said.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Catherine I’ve read your posts and think that you would be fully capable of taking my rather simple observation and running with it.
Greh, on the other hand, seems to have missed my point entirely and has taken off in the opposite direction.
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Catherine
@Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The difference is your ability, and several others here, to make concise points. Your simply put statement is elegant. And sufficiently brief, so it's more likely read and thoughtfully considered.
I struggle with that. So many words and people to bore... so little time : . )
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Daniel Gray
Or like taking advice from a self claimed atheist.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
So, who SHOULD claim a person is an atheist if not the person themselves? The Moon? LOL.
I am not a Theist, Deist, Atheist, Agnostic, or Pantheist.
NJM
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Daniel Gray
Now since we were talking to Zerp....I guess you imagine yourself in that same group as well?
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
LOL. Did you read the last line of my comment, above? It answered your question before you asked it. U A 'millennial' by any chance? Just sayin'. ;-)
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Daniel Gray
No but you must be to cherry pick
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ServantOfJudgement
Dear Navajo Nation
Send a rocket and plant whatever flag you deem necessary to stake your claim. Build all the warships and missile satellites needed to keep the other 180+ nations off the moon. You can be the pioneers of 21st century warfare and watch new and exciting craters form all over the moon.
The moon is anyone's who sets their gaze upon it. All of mankind from the beginning has done so. No race, religion or government can own such a thing although they'll try. If governments own the moon and populate it, they will declare independence from earth the first chance they get and the Moonites will then own the moon. Not usa, not China and not the Navajo.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Agree in theory. But a very similar idea existed for ‘The New World’. And it ended up having several different ‘owners’ before the current ones. Let a colony get established and watch the fireworks. Perhaps quite literally from the viewpoint of earth.
Once again again, religious views can go pound sand.
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ServantOfJudgement
They can name their first city New Middle East.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
It's not about ownership. It's about respecting a culture. Since we have no problem capitalizing on a culture when it suits us (U.S.), I'll say turn about is fair play.
What is NASA achieving by putting human ashes on the moon, anyway? I'm thinking there is a political or legal angle.
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ServantOfJudgement
Catherine,
I agree with you about NASA fooling around with this stuff. I don't like NASA goofing around with climbing change either, make a new agency if we need to study it, let NASA explore the cosmos and let the dead bury the dead.
Mony ruins just about everything does it not?
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
Sure does. There is already substantial talk and action about mining the moon. My best present guess is NASA wants to put U.S. DNA up there as a place holder of sorts. I think the moon and other objects will end up like a DMZ. Same as the HAARP Program, where countries point weaponry at each other to maintain peace, though mostly their spot. Haha... funny not funny.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Any culture or part of a culture, including a religion, that attempts to control or deny the rights of those who are not any part of that culture or religion, especially the advancement of science and human understanding, I do not respect. Religion is nothing more than a force buttressing ignorance, superstition, and the worst behavior of humankind all for money. Tellwidit!
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
SPOKEN LIKE A RATIONAL CLEAR-THINKING ADULT! :-)
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Nicholas J Page
NASA Show some respect to the Navajo Nation and delay the take off.The moons for everybody around the world to enjoy
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Paul
And burying a few grams of human ashes there will not impact anyone's enjoyment of the moon. It will still be there and be visually unchanged.
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Catherine
@Paul
Ask yourself, why would NASA want to bury cremation ashes on the moon? This is not about aesthetics of the moon.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Yes, I would no longer be able to enjoy the Moon knowing there are human remains on its surface. Good thinkin' sport.
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Rev Mark D
What are they going to do when the world begins consuming the moon as an extractive resource?
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
First, I think short term thinkers with too much money don't care. They seem to assume they have the money and workforce to do whatever they please, while not considering how nothing in space respects their money, power, and status on Earth.
About 13-14 years ago, I found a paper written about an assignment given to teams of University of Notre Dame students. The goal was to determine what would be necessary for human survival on Mars, including the building of greenhouses.
More recently, I've found reasoning that basalt has very little iron in it, so the moon's gravity will not be negatively affected. I think that's wishful thinking.
I've also watched accretion videos in which objects are naturally on an eventual collision path. Great demonstration here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD4ySbQYYyA&t=22s
So my uneducated concern is, what happens when a miniscule amount of gravitational pull is altered between our moon and objects in our solar system?
Once mining begins on the moon (has it already?), how soon can we expect changes on earth? Are we already seeing that, and does that make climate change not our biggest concern? I think wicked problems are ahead.
Whatever comes, the best each of us can do is be our best while coping with insanely wealthy crazies. As long as we're here, perspective and a calm mind will get us further than most anything else.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Rev, the Moon is 1,079 miles in diameter. That's a lot of raw materials. If we could place the Moon on a scale here on da Urf it would weight 7.3476 × 10^22 kilograms. It would take a week or two to use it up, don't you think?
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Keith D
It would seem that whereas a previous burial wound up with NASA making a promise, NASA has an obligation. Everything else is really an aside.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Never A Straight Answer has NO OBLIGATION to any race or their ancient prescientific superstition about the Moon.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Quite honestly, I have to agree with the Navajo Nation. We've littered our planet, let us not start to do that on the moon, too. We've already left enough debris there.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Yes, the Moon is only about two square miles in area, so it would be covered in "litter" very quickly. Oh wait...is someone saying we should start spending BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to rocket our garbage to the Moon? No, they aren't. Just some bones of people who can afford the exorbitant price for a rocket ride for their bones. So relax. 99.999999999999999% of the people of the Earth don't have the cash. (Psst, the Moon is way bigger than 2 square miles. 14.6 million square miles! It would take millions of years of daily dumping of the Earth's precious garbage resources to cover that many square miles. Relax!)
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Catherine
I agree with @Stacey Owens Jan 05, 2024 at 11:47 am
"If NASA start to bury people on one the moon, it will cause an affect to the moon surface, not to shine its light. It will effect the earth in many ways and the people on the earth. Please understand, I don't worship the moon, but I do believe it has a cause and affect on the earth. Just like the sun."
I think deference to Navajo mythology regarding the sacredness of the moon is warranted if only because indigenous peoples everywhere try to protect what is meaningful to their culture. Don't we all?
Is stewardship designated only to Earth?
Are we not already backpeddling fast as possible trying to mitigate climate change we were warned about long ago?
Ignoring attempts to protect a vital part of this world we all share, has already led to over exploiting Earth.
Climate change is no joke.
Mining the moon and other objects should not be taken lightly.
We know so little, yet countires are so willing to exploit exploit exploit without caution.
LISTEN. At the very least, pause.
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ServantOfJudgement
Catherine,
Interesting that the agency commissioned to study climbing change is the same agency that pollutes other planets and dumps billions of tons of hydrocarbon byproducts into earths atmosphere to do it.
Two steps forward and three steps back. Just can't win.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
I could not agree more. Ironically, we are the brakes and we're not using them. We keep buying what 'they' sell and living how they direct.
Why not support the Navajo on this particular point simply because no one else is? They are trying to apply brakes, while most of us pettishly say 'no' because the Navajo's strongest leverage is personally disagreeable.
What if the industrial revolution had been more astutely guided so our environments would not suffer the consequences of moving too fast with too little thought?
What's done is done. Still, do we need to toss gas on a blazing bonfire?
Because some billionaires want to populate and exploit space, do we have to tear this world up to help them in a twisted procrustean manner? Truly, it's as if we're each designing our own living coffins, then chunking ourselves up to fit where we shouldn't. For what?
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Kilted Minister
The Moon does not shine, it's not a self-illuminating object.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
There you go claiming the Moon is self-luminous! What is it, Kilted? Is it self-luminous or not? You hypocritical troll! Always contradicting yourself! Land's sake...it seems a body can't turn around these days without bumping it a hypocritical troll. ;-)
Not your enemy Kilted. Peace, out.
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Michael Dwayne Cooper
I m part Cherokee. There has been technical waste on the moon since the first moon landing and to my knowledge ( I might not know about it ) there has not been a complaint so why now?
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Catherine
@Michael Dwayne Cooper
Partly because awareness is growing, I think. Partly because the Navajo are exercising leverage that John Trudell and others fought for. What is the point in gaining leverage if it isn't judiciously applied?
There must be a solid reason for NASA to agree to keep the Navajo in the loop. A reason why it later chose not to. A reason why the Navajo persist. How likely is mere ego and posturing at play between the two?
Whatever the subterfuge and facts may be, it seems NASA and the Navajo representatives are aware of something the rest of us are not.
So, I think when when an alarm sounds, why not take precautions? Slow the roll. Ask questions before moving forward?
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Catherine
On the other side of what I think, is looking more closely into the activities of the players might bring more clarity to the discussion. How did Nygren move up like a rocket into such a powerful position? Much like Obama and other politicians who come streaking into the limelight, seemingly from nowhere. Perhaps this is a clash between NASA and Nygren, centered on business deals?
In which case, slowing down what is happening with mining and exploiting objects in our solar system still seems like a good idea, so let Nygren put the brakes on if it isn't too late.
If what NASA and similar are doing has made it too late for brakes to work, then the rest of us should appreciate every day that much more, and be that much more kind to people because we are all in the same boat.
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Ronaldo
Some of my People have been on the North American continent long before Europeans arrived, and we considered the lands, the waters, and the sky sacred. To honor those sacred concepts, we must remove all pollution from the lands and the waters, and then remove all the unsightly planes from the sky. What is the likelihood this is going to happen?
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John Fox
Don't give the corporate entities or government any ideas. Next there will be scrolling Netflix trailers or worse, they talk of mining the moon. As it loses density and spins out of orbit, or creates rising or plunging tides due to the greed of man. I don't understand the vanity that leads us to believe we own alk we can grasp!
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Russel A. Kester
John, I believe the moon is already spinning out of orbit at the rate of 3.8 centimeters per year.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
You clearly have no understanding of physics, Sir. A teaspoon of sand has the same density as 100 tons of the same sand. Adding or removing matter doesn't change density, it changes volume. That's one of the reasons gunpowder wasn't measured by weight in the earlier centuries, but by volume.
Did you not learn in high school that a ball made of balsa wood falls in free space at exactly the same rate as a ball the same size made of iron? The law of angular momentum doesn't change simply because something weights less or more. You don't get an increase in angular momentum by simply changing the denominator in the equation to a higher number. Thus, making the moon lighter or heavier won't change its orbit path.
Newtonian Physics 101: The orbit of a satellite such as a moon around a central body is not affected by the mass of the satellite. Orbits, by their nature, are always stabilized at all times and, unless the system has enough energy to eject either one of the bodies, the orbit of the satellite will always be constant and roughly an ellipse.
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Catherine
@Anthony Jones Boyette
If what is mined on the moon is removed, will there be no effect?
Recently read Hawaii is mostly made of a specific type of basalt deemed ideal for aerospace activities, particularly construction on the moon and Mars. So I'm curious how much material can be removed from Earth and sent elsewhere, without effect. And the opposite, how much can be added to another object without effect?
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Rev Ned
Y’all, IMHO, the Navajo religion is as valid as anybody else’s and should be respected as such.
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Russel A. Kester
Reverend Ned, that is an interesting comment. It could mean that if one respects other religions then one should respect the Navajo religion. Or it could mean that if one does not respect other religions then one should not respect the Navajo religion either.
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Catherine
@Rev Ned
Indigenous peoples don't have religions as defined by our society. Nonetheless, if holding something sacred can offer protections we seem quick to eschew, why not walk side-by-side at least until more facts are known about questions being asked?
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Deborah Aherne
What’s next? Trash on the Moon? Other planets? Is the cosmos not sacred any longer? Many religions view the Moon as sacred. Indigenous peoples view Earth as sacred and do everything to try to protect her, while “money” destroys her. Now “money” will destroy beyond boundaries of Earth.
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Daniel Gray
Ok the moon is not sacred to any of the Native American religions. As such nothing they say can be deemed legally accurate
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Legally accurate? This is a new area for you, Greh. Gonna’ take some time for you to solidify a nonsensical opinion and reinforce it with irrational talking points.
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Daniel Gray
Ok if it is sacred as you want to try and imply Zerp, then hows about you show exactly where and in what religion in the Native American religion that its actually sacred? I can tell you it isnt.
The closest I can come is in the 7 Teachings of the An- ishinaabe, we are told to honor our Elders. Grandmother moon is a treasured ancestor who radiates love and encourage- ment for every being on Earth by holding our world together. And at NO time does it say the moon is sacred.
And I think its the perfect time for you to learn a few Cherokee words: ᏅᏓ ᏒᏃᏱ ᎡᎯ - nvda svnoyi ehi - moon. ᏒᏃᏱ ᎠᎦᎵᏍᎬ - svnoyi agalisgv - moonlight. So while we Cherokee had names for it, we didnt consider it sacred either. Even the Lakota had a name for the moon "Hanwi" but they didnt consider it sacred either.
So why didnt they make a fuss when you have the several agencies like the International Lunar Lands Registry (ILLR) that act as a broker in the process of you actually purchasing a piece of the moon?
heck even the Oneida have stories of when there wasnt a moon in the sky. and the ONLY one who somehow now tries to claim the moon as sacred, is now throwing a fit? They need to sit down and have a coke and a smile and shut up as they didnt even start claiming the moon was sacred until the 2000's and its too late for that now
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Only read your intro stating I was implying the moon was sacred. Nope, don’t think that at all. Even a tiny weensy bit.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Zerp, your CYA act does not help you in any way
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ServantOfJudgement
Your perspective is always appreciated Daniel, you bring a lot to the table.
Thanks for educating me.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
A lot of what? You didn't specify.
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Daniel Gray
yes he did, you just refuse to accept it as if you did it would moot anything you say
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Human remains are human remains, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
These people did not originate on, and did not grow or thrive on the moon. They did not breed, raise families, or contribute anything to the moon. But these people have the money to waste to be buried on the moon?
I've seen the comments about the Navajo or other indigenous peoples or others "not owning" the moon, these same people defending the idea that people have their rights, corporations have the right to market a space launch of one's remains to space, the moon, or elsewhere, and the convergence of the two is okay.
Apparently some people will buy anything. And others will allow it.
I find the whole thing outrageous. Nothing more than excessive narcissism and an abuse of money that could be doing more good.
I will, however, add one tiny but of support for those who have set foot on the moon. Only those who have had the experience of being with the moon should be allowed to be returned there after death.
The rest of us can catch an iceberg out after we run these moon burial corps out of business.
Peace and Out Reb tk
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Robin Anne Hannon
I agree with you! The narcissism, selfishness, and hubris are astounding. If you look at my comment, I said the same thing you did, what a waste of money that could be used for better things.
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ServantOfJudgement
Interesting perspective.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Maybe they can use those corpses on the moon for fertilizer, to try to grow a little something up there. Anything would be an improvement.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Ehrman, in your last comment in response to mine it seems to me that you should have put heroine instead of heroism.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I was given some large mushrooms for a Christmas gift 🎁. After drying them out I'm going to run them through my coffee grinder, and then mix them with melted chocolate and peanut butter chips and make candy bars to serve my guests, while we're watching my DVD OF Alice In Wonderland, so we can go tell Alice, when she's nine feet tall. I wonder if she'll pop out of the screen, and sit on our faces.
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ServantOfJudgement
Ate 4 grams dried then ate 2 more cause I didn't think the 4 did anything. 5 minutes after eating the 2 g I felt the 4 g.
Took a while to figure out who was barking, me or the dog. Turned out to be the dog...
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LB
Carl, so I see you care not for the sexual Connotation you made. Some would think it vulgar; and not proper for this site.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And how'd you like to swing on a star, and carry moon beams home 🏠 in a jar? Or would you rather be a fish?
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Good point Navajo nation. I have to say I don't think we should put ashes on the moon It's bad karma. I think it goes against religion. Just like its anti catholic to dump your ashes on the highway. It's disrespectful to the dead as well as to the moon environment.
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Daniel Gray
Name the native American religion then. You know, the one that supposedly considers the moon sacred? You cant. So how exactly can this be against a religion?
And lets not forget that other people besides NASA have the ability to put things on the moon with China and India being two, so how exactly are you going to stop them?
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
sacreligious !
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Religion SHOULD be SACKED! Spirituality is marvelous but religion has always been a force for repression, sexism, superstitious ignorance, anti-humanistic oppression, injustice, inequality, "truth" wars, sadism, poverty,
pedophilia, human sacrifice (whether literal or figurative by wasting human life in the cause of killing others for "truth"). You can learn more about the truth as to religion by reading such things as "the role of religion in South America" and just about every continent on Earth. Religion be some dog SHIP!
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Richard Anthony Truluck
Nothing really new. Trash is up there already.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Rick, what trash is that?
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
This is ludicrous because the human remains are not Navajo or any other nation or tribe of Native Americans. That being so, this is of no relevance to the Navajo nation. If I (of Welsh descent) decide to have my remains buried on the Moon, it is not the business of anyone else, not even to those who think a hunk of hurting rock is sacred. It is NOT sacred to me. Religious beliefs are NOT SCIENCE and have no bearing on scientific concerns or interests.
This Navajo Nation concern and argument is even sillier than the "scientific creation" folks who want Genesis 1 and 2 taught in public schools as 'science".
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Daniel Gray
Isnt any different then people like you who have no trouble with evolution being taught and its not a proven fact either, or the major lie that we all descended from apes (you do know that dolphins have almost as much equal DNA as humans and chimps do...right?) or the fact of the lie of the big bang theory, that was just proved a lie by the new telescope that has produced pictures of galaxies that are over 20 billion years OLDER then the age of the universe that the "experts" claim.or the fact that you want people to believe that everything in the universe was somehow condensed into a pinprick? Or the fact that the BBT violates Newtons 3 law of dynamics which is a bedrock law of physics "anything in motion will stay in motion and anything at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside source" now since there was supposed to be nothing else, what was the outside source?
As you can see I (and others) ca destroy your beliefs and claims just as easily as you try and disrespect others.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
First, I do NOT believe in the theory of Evolution as currently taught and understood. I lean toward Intelligent Design because the universe displays every sign of it. That said, I do not believe in Bible Creationism by Bible-god. (See my book Jehovah Unmasked! or ask for a free PDF of same, and yes, the Big Bang is nonsense, infantile nonsense.) Second, no evolutionist believes or teaches we descended from the Great Apes. Evolution says that we and the apes are descended from a common ancestor. But you will likely continue to repeat the nonsense. As to the Vatican, Daniel, it is private property owned by the Roman Church and is occupied by several hundred people. No one lives on the Moon, and it is owned by all the peoples of the world. No, Daniel, you have not "destroyed my beliefs". However, you have demonstrated that you are deficient in your knowledge of those things you pontificate about, your understanding, and also deficient in your powers of reason and rational debate.
I am, BTW, a PANENTHEIST. (Not a pantheist. Look up panentheist. All you need to do is wiggle your fingers on your keyboard and VOILA!)
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Daniel Gray
yet another CYA act when you are proven wrong
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Here, in a nutshell, is my problem with the infantile Big Bang theory:
In the Beginning there was
No space No time No matter No energy No physical laws...
The NOTHING exploded and created everything!
If a person cannot see the glaring probs in this religious statement of belief in a Creator Nothing but rails against a Creator Godhead...well...LMFAO!
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but there had to have been something as another bedrock part of science and physics is that matter cannot be made nor destroyed. Therefor there had to be matter for all of this to be here.
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Robin Anne Hannon
When....WHEN will we understand consequences for actions? We have NO idea what dumping remains does to the ecosystem of the moon. On top of this, it's expensive. Imagine what we could do with all those dollars spent on polluting the moon. Now as to sacred, how would people like it if remains were dumped at the Vatican, or the wall in Jerusalem, or the Holy Mosque there? What selfishness, what complete and utter distain for the beliefs of others. Someone had said the Navaho don't own the moon. Well by that logic the Pope and Vatican are fair game, after all they don't own it either. We are such a selfish and destructive species. We were not content to destroy the Earth, its ecosystem, and its weather, in the name of stupidity we now want to do that to the moon. I can't even!
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Kilted Minister
Considering there's no oxygen, water, or anything alive other than perhaps bacteria, I'd say the moon's already non-existent ecosystem is going to fare just fine.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
THE MOON HAS NO ECOSYSTEM, friend. Got to Wikipedia and type in "Moon" and you can quickly and painlessly learn a little something. For more fun, type in "Facts about Earth's Moon" into YouTube. Dis be da infomashun age an day be no reason fo yo kinda not-knowin' post.
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Kilted Minister
Giving in to the minute possibility that I’m wrong, I read Wikipedia’s article on the Moon. It has no data to back up your argument. After that, I turned to the Google machine, and lo and behold, the same thing: Unlike on Earth, water doesn't rain down freely on the lunar surface and collect into bodies we could drink from. Crucially, the moon also lacks an atmosphere with breathable air. Neither does Earth's natural satellite have existing ecosystems that could conveniently support fields of agriculture.
https://www.livescience.com/how-many-humans-could-live-moon.html#:~:text=Unlike%20on%20Earth%2C%20water%20doesn,conveniently%20support%20fields%20of%20agriculture.
Please feel free to provide an iota of scientific evidence that an oxygen free, almost vacuum status environment has an ecosystem as we know it. I’ll wait…
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
Comment has been removed.
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Kilted Minister
You sir, are a troll and a hyprocite. Here's why: I state there's no ecosystem on the Moon because of environmental conditions. You proceed to counter with a Wikipedia page and some random YouTube video. Not only that, you yourself referred to it as "dead" when replying to multiple individuals. You said to Rev Elizabeth, "Leave it to a female to emote rather than think. Rev. Elizabeth, we need brain power to solve probs not heartstrings. The Moon belongs to NO ONE and NO ONE NATION. It belongs to the PEOPLE OF THE EARTH. It doesn't matter what ANY religion sez or believes about the Moon. It is what it is. What is it? A ball of dead rock 1,079 miles in diameter, hurtling through space as it orbits the earth. It isn't a deity even if the whole universe of sentient beings worship it as a god. Mythology + superstition = religion. Reason + intuition = spirituality." Then, you responded to Bryant Keith Montgomery with "What the FRUCK do feelings have to do with reality? The MOON IS WHAT IT IS KID! No matter if you and every other human on the planet thinks it is made of green cheese and invented the automobile ITS A DEAD PIECE OF ROCK ORBITING THE EARTH! It has no atmosphere, no water, no life. ITS DEAD! ITS ROCK! IT DIDNT CREATE THE AUTOMOBILE IT ISNT MADE OF GREEN CHEESE AND IT AINT A DEITY!"
So which one is it? Is there thriving life supported ecosystem on the Moon like you claim, or is it a dead rock hurtling through space like you also claim?
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
What the hell are you yammering about, kid? I posted no Wiki article or YouTube video. How on earth did you misunderstand what I wrote so utterly? The Moon has no ecosystem junior, it's lifeless dead rock just as I wrote. You apparently have no ability to read simple English with understanding. I'm not a troll but I have zero patience with fools such as yourself.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry nathaniel but you just ruined your own point (that is if you actually had one) when you try and tell people to go to wikipedia. I mean WHY try and use them as a source when they themselves clearly say that they are NOT to be used as a valid source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
and here it is directly from their own page. "Wikipedia is not a reliable source for citations elsewhere on Wikipedia. As a user-generated source, it can be edited by anyone at any time, and any information it contains at a particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or simply incorrect."
So if even they say they are not a reliable source, why then are you trying to use them as such?
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Amber M. Castleman
If there was a religion treaty between the Native Tribes and the Military/Government then a promise is broken and needs urgent mending but if not then there needs to be one done to stop further damages between us they already had their burial land taken away from them why take away their religion beliefs and peace too??
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Thomas Edwin Peterson
When ultimately cremated.i wish my ashes spread to the 4 winds here on earth to assist in recovery of the earth. In whatever meager way. Toss a small rock into the water so the ripples of recovery are begun.
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David Arthur Lewis
So, it turns out that the lunar lander had a massive failure of its propulsion system right after lift-off. God works in mysterious ways, so they say.
I think the Navajo objections are valid. The fact that it's human remains that they want to dump on the moon is really offensive to any believer in a nature religion.
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James G. Ward
There was a time when early man worshipped the moon and many other religious/lifestyle groups, such as those involved with Wicca, still do. In my most humble opinion we must look to the future. There are no commandments (to my knowledge) in the Bible that restrict mans movement in space.
We should send representatives of the Native American Cultures to the moon so that they can revere the moon they way many others do myself included. The moon represents new opportunities and a new future in space. For me a new future in space fits right into my belief that our higher power expects us to move forward. Share with all cultures mankind future in space and they will all realize we are supposed to be there.
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Wayne Edward Kilmer
If you haven’t been there and can’t get there it isn’t yours to claim. My father told me we are at least part Lakota, but I disagree with many claims by indigenous people on claims of ownership of sacred grounds, for centuries indigenous peoples stole each other’s land. Now “they” complain when others follow “their” example. Karma I guess.
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John Casillo
Moon......one ash burial for man.......another dump site for mankind
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Matthew James Blondon
Does this mean casinos on the moon now. I would hate to see the glaring light pollution from the message boards alone.
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Karsten S. A. Johansson
Indigenous people have done well at holding white people to their promises - they were after all on this land before we were.
However, it is hard to ignore that it was white man on the moon, and there are no indigenous moon people.
I can't think of a kinder way to word this, but they are pushing things too far on this one. They can't decide that say, the sky is sacred, and therefore all airplanes must stop, or the waters are sacred, and therefore all boats and swimming must stop.
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Russell F McDonough
The Navajo say the Moon is a Spiritual place for them. The remains of our brothers and sisters are sacred to tge Spirit world. Therefore what better place should they be buried. Many cemetaries are blessed to make them sacred. Remains are buried in these places because of the holiness that is there. The moon is a sacred spiritual place. May they rest in Peace.
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Debra Michaela Clover
Perhaps we should have a 'global' agreement to NOT put any rubbish or remains in space or on the moon or any planet anywhere. We should recover any 'spent' satellites and dispose of them correctly instead of leaving them to float around in space. It does not belong to anyone, and I feel no nation has the right to litter our Solar System.
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America, Australia, Canada, Japan, Luxembourg, Italy, the United Kingdom, and the United Arab Emirates signed the Artemis Accords in 2020 establishing "lunar law". The thing about treaties is they operate on the honor system.
There are already several treaties regarding space. America, Great Britain, Russia, and China all signed an agreement that prohibits nuclear weapons on satellites in space. We all have them up there, though.
"We should recover any 'spent' satellites and dispose of them correctly"...already exists. But it's an "agreement" not a law. Each country is supposed to de-orbit their own satellites. They never do.
As there's no international jurisdiction to force compliance with a treaty, space treaties aren't worth anything.
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Sorry, my red brothers. Declaring something "sacred" doesn't convey ownership or give you deed or title to it. Especially something that is beyond your ability to posses.
Hold up let me google....the last time a native american tribe sent a ship to the moon....ah, here it is....NEVER.
At least if you're going to claim control and custody of something you should at least be able to posses it and defend it.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
THE MODERN BOOK OF GENESIS
In the Beginning there was
No space No time No matter No energy No physical laws...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Then NOTHING exploded in a 'BIG Bang' and created EVERYTHING!
If a person cannot see the glaring probs in this religious statement of belief in a big banging Creator Nothing but rails against a Creator Godhead...well...LMFAO! I gotta go ask my mommy to read me some modern cosmological bedtime stories!
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Daniel Gray
yet again there had to be something as matter cannot be destroyed or created. And sorry again but the bible says the universe was without form, it does not and never has said that there wasnt any matter energy or space. How very pathetic of you to try and put your beliefs into something and claim it says that when it never did.
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Russel A. Kester
Daniel, I never noticed that distinction before, but you are right. It said it was formless. How very interesting. Thank you for that.
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Daniel Gray
you are welcome
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Kevin W Titus
I believe the American Natives are true to the beliefs of their Decendants .But the Moon is not Tribal Land, it is a planet, that has sacredness to all Mankind. Cremated human remains are all that is left, and many wished they could have seen Space. So they have their small box sacredly placed on the moon? I think this is a place where many believe God is, as well? I think this matter is not a Native American nor any other Indigeince Peoples, right to interfere with it? We are All Gods Children,
The moon is not a possession of the Navajo Nation or any other group or nation. To suggest they might have a veto on lunar activities is utterly ludicrous. The 1967 Outer Space Treaty defines the Moon and all outer space as the "province of all mankind". You cannot set a precedent of this nature. It's futile anyway. The Europeans, Chinese and Russians don't have any reason to talk to indigenous Americans and can meet any demand.
I do wonder what they really want as they must know their objections can never be taken seriously.
People who don't understand this, are the same people that that has broken almost every treaty with the Native people.
The treaty or any treaty never included ownership of the moon
Kid, the people who broke those treaties are ALL LONG DEAD! Sheesh. Really?
The people who signed the US Constitution are all along dead too.
Indeed! And their descendants are not claiming we owe them a damn thing! Therein lies the difference.
The problem Nathaniel is they set a precedent of not honoring their agreements. They may be long dead, but the their descendants still benefit from their lack of honor.
You still paint yourself with the brush of their evil deeds. I owe no one anything that I did not personally do. Only fools listen to losers (who want your money for nothing) whine and believe the nonsense.
How can I when I want the constitution changed to be something that reflects the time we are in. A constitution that isn’t ambiguous and open to lack luster ignorant interpretations like yours.
Id rather be a fool helping out his fellow human beings, than being a plucked chicken of a coward who tries to pass himself as a man. The only whining nonsense is your heartless bluster.