It's the Holy Grail of women's rights for pro-choice groups. But according to the pro-life crowd, it's more accurately compared to the "Death Star."
After years of debate on the subject, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo signed the controversial Reproductive Health Act into law on the 46th anniversary of Roe v. Wade.
The bill codifies federal abortion rights guaranteed by the historic 1973 Supreme Court decision. It also removes abortion from the state's criminal code, and eases restrictions on who can perform the procedure and when it can take place.
Much of the controversy surrounding the legislation stems from a stipulation regarding late-term abortion. The new law allows abortion up until birth in cases of "an absence of fetal viability, or at any time when necessary to protect a patient's life or health" -- measures hailed as a legal failsafe for New York women worried the federal government might seek to curtail these protections.
Tempers Flare
Despite wide support from leglislators and constinuents alike, the bill's passage caused an outcry in pro-life and religious circles. Many faith leaders took to social media and other platforms to express disappointment and anger over what they've dubbed "legalized infanticide."
Some have even called for Cuomo, who identifies as Catholic, to be excommunicated from the Church. Chief among these voices was Franklin Graham, son of famous evangelist Billy Graham. He called on Archbishop of New York Timothy Dolan to "take a moral stand" and disavow Cuomo:
Others have taken equally strong stances. In an open letter to Governor Cuomo, Rev. Edward B. Scharfenberger wrote:
"Once truth is separated from fiction and people come to realize the impact of the bill, they will be shocked to their core the so-called Reproductive Health Act will expand abortion under the pretenses of choice and progress...(and) threatens to rupture the communion between the Catholic faith and those who support the RHA even while professing to follow the Church, something that troubles me greatly as a pastor."
Standing Their Ground
But New York legislators are not backing down. They've hit back against critics, arguing that religious interests should not be involved in important decisions involving women's health care. They also insist the legislation was a vital protection against uncertainty at the national level.
"We have a president who's made it very, very clear that he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade," Senate Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins said at a news conference. "Today, here in New York, we are saying no. We're saying that here in New York, women's health matters. We're saying here in New York, women's lives matter. We're saying here in New York, women's decisions matter."
Sparring Over Morality
Both sides clearly feel they hold the moral ground, which is part of what makes this debate so impassioned and difficult to resolve. Pro-life activists argue that protecting unborn children is society's moral duty and that abortion amounts to the taking of a life -- an act that should be treated with deadly seriousness and not undertaken lightly.
Pro-choice groups insist that laws should not be made based on religious beliefs and that women's right to control their own bodies is paramount. That women have frequently been denied the opportunity to make their own healthcare decisions is a moral injustice that must be corrected, they argue.
Where do you stand? And what role does faith have to play in this conversation?
112 comments
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Dave
The right of women to control their bodies is paramount to any religious concern. Not allowing women to control their bodies is a very slippery slope, with the end point being women as chattel, to be bought and sold as men see fit. Not acceptable.
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Lionheart
?
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Val jester
Please tell me you are not that naive?
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Dave
Val- Based on your next comment, I assume you are a troll, or even more naive than you assume for me. But I will question your comment. Do you really want to go back to the time when women couldn't own property, couldn't vote, could not be raped by their husband, etc.? Your line of thinking is naive at best, and misogynistic at worst.
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John Owens
Why do you metrosexual dudes try to suck up to the feminists by spouting their same nonsense? If they have a right to control their bodies, they have a right not to get pregnant in the first place. Ain't nobody talking about buying and selling females here. You are nuts. This has nothing to do with buying and selling females. Pure nonsense you are babbling.
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Katelynne Victoria Shouse
Thank the Lord for the New York Legislature and Governor Cuomo!
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Val jester
Are you thanking the Lord from atop your proud mountain of dead babies?
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Maria
Sick! Yes a woman should have control of her body, but the baby she is killing is not her body it’s the baby’s body! So you are all sick evil hypocrites!!!
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John Owens
Shouse certainly doesn't have a dog in this hunt.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp MSW
"Calls for excommunication" from the Roman Catholic Church? Oh my, the church which became a safe harbor for pedophile priests who were not excommunicated when complaints were lodged. These criminals were moved around from parish to parish to continue to sexually abuse children for decades. Double standard? Why are a bunch of guys in long dresses making decisions or have any say on women's health care and control of our bodies?
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Marilyn E Gibson
Well said??
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Carl Elfstrom
I've never heard of anyone being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Christian denomination, and don't think they are capable of doing that. Of course, I only went to Catholic schools for six years, am a former chapter president of à Catholic missionary group, and was an altarboy for years. So I could be wrong. Those people wanting Cuomo's excommunication are are just ignorant loud mouths, who don't know shit from shinola. The Catholic church doesn't concern itself with the beliefs of its members, other than hoping they all believe in Jesus Christ. However, they could burn him to a stake. They never did away with that. It's still in the books, at the Vatican.
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Maria
In my opinion it is the devil at work in this world. What ever reason you have to abort an innocent child at any stage of a pregnancy has nothing to do with politics or religion. You're either good and loving or bad and evil. And what's going on in this world today regarding abortion and other issues is pure evil and Satan at work! God and Satan, good vs evil, it's been going on for centuries! Chose your side carefully.....Your soul depends on it. And if you don't believe it that's your problem. Don't insult, belittle and judge those who chose to be good and kind!
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Marilyn E Gibson
Good to know you are God & gets to decide for all of us mere mortals what is right for us.....?????? what a relief.
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tom
If the Catholic Church wants to maintain any credibility Cuomo will be excommunicated. If the credibility does not matter them then this would be piled on top of pedophile priests, the selling of indulgences, murderer popes, popes with bastard children, the rape and pillaging in the name of god committed by the conquistadors, etc.
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Rev. Rene
I am pretty sure it was Pope Clement 5 who said: "It has served us well, this myth of Christ!" (Read your history, then decide what this "Christian" church has left of moral grounds!)
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Dave
The quote is most commonly attributed to Leo X, but it appeared earlier in John Bales book, The pageant of the papacy. Interestingly (to me at least) is this is the pope that essentially caused protestant churches to exist. Luther didn't want to start a new church, but the pope essentially forced it to happen by not listening.
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Kathryn
.....and I call for the Catholic Church to pay taxes.
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Ann Wood
AMEN Kathryn. They occupy the most expensive real estate. do no useful work, live extremely well on the backs of the superstitious an fearful and those of us who pay taxes, pay their share as well as our own. Tax ALL religious institutions the same as regular businesses are taxed, of course, that will still allow them to get away with their ill gotten gains.
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John Owens
But if churches pay taxes, then they can have actual voice in government and all the crying about church and state will have no leg on which to stand.
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Jim
Up until birth? Why don't we just make a law to allow for a warranty for say 2 or 3 years so if we don't like the baby we can just terminate it. All those smiling faces at the signing must be the folks who deal in the baby body parts market.
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Quasi
It is an ill wind indeed that blows no good.
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Alvin Jones
A woman should be able to choose what she does with her body and adhere to the limitations of those choices given by the law of the land..In the end her actions, decisions and behavior will be between her the God of her understanding.
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Martha Knight
Those earnest believers who consider themselves Christians and who think fetuses are babies have a right to evangelize, sharing their own beliefs with others and trying to convince them to adopt those beliefs and be governed by them. In fact, evangelicals would seem to have a duty to "spread the gospel" and its various ramifications. Those earnest believers do not have a right to enlist government to enforce their religious beliefs or customs on others. Some Christians (including Catholics) are pro-choice. A majority practice birth control not limited to "the rhythm method." Government does not have a proper role in decisions concerning family planning. Those who think of fetuses as babies are free to use various forms of communication and persuasion to argue their point of view to others. They should not seek to compel others to follow their dogma, by government fiat. Those who claim a fetus or unborn is a person, with a soul, living inside someone else's body, would probably agree that the soul is immortal, and that God preserves the soul eternally. When is the presumed human, with soul and some stage of bodily development, sinless, and innocent of any thought of sin or rebellion against God? Before it has scope for acting as a separate human, cared for by others but capable of some choices or exercise of instinct and interaction. The general teaching among Christians is that God does not discard a soul, but preserves it. The soul is said to be immortal. Surely a just god does not punish the innocent soul that never lived or acted independently. It will not be punished or denied eternity in the presence of its maker, will it? Get out there and evangelize, Christians who think fetuses are babies or must be allowed to become babies, no matter what. Does Scripture tell you to lobby or demonstrate or threaten medical staff persons or others who do not share your beliefs? Witness, preach, write, and manifest your devotion to the gospel and to the sanctity of life. That will include opposition to the death penalty, torture, neglect and maltreatment of the helpless and needy and infirm, and kindness to the alien in your midst.
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tom
"Pro-choice groups insist that laws should not be made based on religious beliefs and that women’s right to control their own bodies is paramount." constitutes a religious belief. People have to broaden their definition of "religion" as secularism is a religious belief, so, in effect, is communism and what I call "statism" the belief that government is per-eminent and should lord over us all. In China, the religion of the state (government) forces abortions. The more abortions there are the less god there is and the more government is god.
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James Anderberg
The souls of those babies will rejoice in the presence of God.
Not so sure about those smiling legislators and progressive women.
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Lionheart
So how do you know the souls will rejoice in the presence of a god? I’m sure you mean well by your comment because it’s a very nice thought, isn’t it, but in reality it’s baseless, and immersed in indoctrinated mythological dogma.
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James Anderberg
How is it you have you have to know that, "... in reality it’s baseless, and immersed in indoctrinated mythological dogma." ?
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Lionheart
Well, my friend, you are making a statement as though you have some sort of factual knowledge that souls of babies will rejoice in the presence of a god, so I’m merely asking you to support your statement, which I suspect is based on myth and dogma.
Thank you for your question.
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Carl Elfstrom
"Fairytales, can come true, they can happen to you, if you're young at heart."
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Carl Elfstrom
How can the souls of babies rejoice in anything? They don't even know what's going on yet. Babies aren't even capable of feeling intense emotions. Haven't you ever taken a psychology course? If you don't believe me, Google it.
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Quasi
The Abrahamic scriptures say that life begins when the first breath is drawn, and leaves when the last breath is exhaled. I truly doubt that any fetus have life until birth has occurred. Can you prove that it happens before? A heartbeat is not evidence of life. I even made a dead frog's leg jump in Biology class; I must have the power of your God.
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John Owens
The scriptures don't really limit it exactly that way, Quasi. In the womb, the babies are drawing breath of life through the mother's blood, even though no actual air is being passed, the oxygen and CO2 are being exchanged. When you hold your breath, you are still alive, even though no breath is passing through your nostrils. If one is scuba diving, you don't breathe through your nostrils with most of the available apparati, but you are still alive. When using an oxygen rebreather, the actual atmosphere is not even what you are breathing, but pure Oxygen, generated by a chemical process, and the CO2 is chemically scrubbed by the rebreather.
Remember the story of how John and Jesus leaped in their mothers' wombs when Elizabeth and Mary met while they were both pregnant? If they weren't alive, how did they know one another?
Samuel, Jesus, John the Baptist, and Samson were all dedicated to the service of the Deity from conception. Jeremiah said God knew him in the womb. This would apply to many others, also, Isaac was promised. Jacob and Esau struggled within the womb, before being born. Ephraim and Manasseh did, also. I'm sure there are others.
There were also a penalty in the Torah for causing a woman to have a miscarriage.
All this shows that life is there before birth. If it has a heartbeat, it is alive. Life is considered to end when the heartbeat stops. Therefore, if the heart is beating, it is alive. It is not an alien. It is not an amphibian. Remember, Haeckel's Embryos were a fraud, still being taught and believed today, but known to be a fraud in the mid 1800s. The unborn human is a human.
You made a dead frog leg twitch. Not the same as making life come from the absence of life. Not at all the same.
I don't object to abortion on religious grounds. I love babies, and I think a society that has any instinct for self-preservation should protect and nurture babies. Of course, that would mean that they need suitable parents, and there is the rub. People who are not suitable parents for whatever reason are copulating. That is the problem, and everyone knows that is the problem, but no one wants to discuss that. It is the elephant in the room. We argue about the babies being killed. They are not creating the problem. The irresponsible copulation is the problem. When it comes to most problems, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
The problem should never reach the stage of late-term pregnancy. Then there would not be so much argument regarding whether or not it is a human life. It should never reach the stage of pregnancy at all, but if it does, it should not go even half term.-
pcfield
Soooo glad you wrote this, I agree as I experienced a presence in the womb that was a part of both my mother and myself. Years later my son leaped in the womb when his cousin was born and we saw her for the first time. I felt their spirits touch, I was filled with joy from them both. I believe the spirit part of us is an immortal piece of God himself that calls us to seek him out, to re-unite in the power of love, not sex or any other craving of the flesh and ego. No one can change another person, we can only change ourselves and give guidance to others when asked. It is and always will be their choice and resulting consequence.
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James Anderberg
Amen.
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Carl Elfstrom
I hope nobody gets the wrong impression that reading the Bible is the same as reading a biology textbook, or going to medical school.
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John Owens
I would hope not as well, Carl. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but biology and no other natural science can teach us compassion or altruism. I like having a doctor who actually cares that I am a person with feelings, rather than one who is a pure clinician.
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Lionheart
So are you implying John that somehow religion teaches compassion and altruism?
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John Owens
Well, Lionheart, indeed they do attempt to teach those two graces to us, as they do courage, generosity, honesty, courtesy, respect, loyalty, diligence, and any other human grace of which you can think. I don't say they always succeed, because the human heart is often desperately wicked, and very often the more selfish, more ruthless, LESS genuinely altruistic humans attain positions of leadership in most human organizations.
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Jim
A heartbeat is not proof of life? Try not having one. We can keep people alive on a breathing machine but if their hart stops it's the end. If you remember you made "the frogs leg jump" with electricity. Much like when they try and restart a hart but you cannot live without one. You can get help with breathing to keep you alive indefinitely but not the hart. Even with the technology we have today the best we can do is a pace maker which can help but cannot sustain life indefinitely. So if you draw your last breath on your own but are kept alive via technology are you still alive? Yes as long as your hart is beating.
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pcfield
Those smiles are so evil looking, crazed even, kind of like hungry vampires in the movies, except for the man in the back. What was he really thinking...hmmmm
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Carl Elfstrom
Was the man in the back dressed entirely in black?
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pcfield
I'm color blind, it looks dark blue maybe a bit of a white collar peeking out...darkness is all around them though...Dracula, as evil can be invisible sometimes...lol
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Carl Elfstrom
The souls of many of those fetuses that never became babies undoubtedly entered into other fetuses so they could have incarnations. Others weren't supposed to go that far in the process at that time, and returned to the Summer land to make other preparations to live again, or advance to a higher spiritual plane. Nothing ever happens that wasn't supposed to happen, for reasons other than we are consciously capable of conceiving. We aren't gods, and weren't given the ability to think like them.
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Maria
Totally agree. I thought Planned Parenthood was supposed to help PLAN or PREVENT pregnancies NOT KILL BABIES. So so sad!
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Quasi
So many Christian women go to Planned Parenthood for many different reasons, and many for their abortions.
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John Owens
They make out like they do all kinds of stuff, but they mostly kill babies.
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pcfield
Common sense, when I was young, spoke to allowing abortion when the life of the mother was in danger. Before any law was given. Not because she decided she didn't want the baby or it was going to be born with a type of infirmity causing hardship on her or society. I was often told keep my legs crossed/closed, then you won't get pregnant! If raped and you get pregnant, give it up for adoption, the same if you just didn't want a baby, put it up for adoption. It was all kept "secret".
Now, it seems to be a badge of honor. "I upheld my choice to be selfish unto myself, I can have unprotected sex whenever and if any consequences...abort it." Easy peasy, especially today when you have the "day after pill". If everyone used it there would not be any need for abortion clinics and baby parts being sold and harvested. Again it all boils down to "choice" and the coming consequence which sadly, to one is death and to the other freedom to do it over and over again. No matter what one's "religion" or lack of, it affects the whole Universe when "life" becomes something to throw away and then sell to the highest bidder.
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John Owens
Yep.
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Quasi
God is just fine with abortions, and for three BIG reasons: (1.) Miscarriages are "Abortions by God." (2.) God included an abortion drink in the Christian Bible. (3.) YOU cannot argue with any Christian God.
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Lionheart
You are right with number 3. Trying to argue with someone that isn’t there can be a real problem, and if anyone here’s you they can have you institutionalized. That is, unless they hear you mention the “God” word. That always seems to be a “Get Out Of Jail” card.
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Gerardo
Quasi, your name sounds Pakistani but that’s besides the point, isn’t it? Or perhaps it is relevant because it would help to understand your points. Christian Bible. The reference to the Ordeal by Water appears in Numbers 5:12, of a clearly Mosaic law. Any Christian God you say; excuse me but how many Gods you know? Because as far as I know there is only one God but should you have more info I am sure everybody would be delighted to share your information. Abortions by God. What an offensive notion this is. God is the giver and taker of life and only HE knows HIS reasons. If this are your BIG reasons, my friend, I would say that your sense of proportion does not exist
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Rev. Brien
I argue with it every day. Your another nutcase in a world full of nut cases.
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John Owens
Yeah. There is no actual reference to pregnancy in that trial by bitter waters, although a lot abortion advocates says there is. It doesn't say that.
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John Owens
Corretion: "...say there is."
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John Owens
Correction: "Correction: "...say there is.
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Maria
That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard! A miscarriage is God’s abortion lol! An abortion drink lol....that’s assuming the Bible is God’s word. Whether it is or not is not up to me to decide...but I don’t know what planet you’re from but here on earth killing is killing no matter what you call it!
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Freddy Guerra
Como should be excommunicated he is demonic him in New York state I live in New York is full of demonic people
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Lionheart
So, what exactly is your interpretation of a demonic person?
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John Owens
Estamos de acuerdo, Freddy. Muchas habitaciones para los angeles caídos en Nueva York.
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Valdis
Women do not decide to get abortions lightly. It’s not an easy decision. They are wounds that do not heal, and leave scars both physically and psychologically. No woman should ever have to justify herself to you. It’s not your business. As a Catholic, I know a thing or two about excommunication. It takes a whole lot to be excommunicated. And quite frankly, supporting this bill just isn’t enough for that.
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G Dobson
Church dogma of any brand does not belong in our laws. The U.S. is not a theocracy.
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Valdis
You are absolutely correct. Our founding fathers were no Christians or fools, and sought to prevent that type of nonsense (theocratic laws).
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John Owens
Church dogma is not even a factor in the law. It is a factor in the private life of a Catholic. He can and should be excommunicated.
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pcfield
Being raised Catholic and seeing just some of the hypocrisy and evil it does by not excommunicating the evil within, caused me to excommunicate myself from it...It is not God, it is a church with a mix of true believers and just in case they are right hopefuls, that get to sin all they want and then go to confession or pay for forgiveness; then they can start the next week with a clean slate. Ahhh, heaven on earth for them!
The problem seems to be in all churches as humans are not perfect, we all sin and make bad choices, it is in our DNA to choose self over anyone else, but we also have in the DNA to choose differently.
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John Owens
PC, I agree that any church is not God. It is supposed to be the bride of Christ, and people think that obeying and serving the church is obeying and serving God. It CAN be, but only if the CHURCH is obeying and serving God. I am not Catholic, and do not consider myself Protestant. I view Protestants as unruly Catholics. They don't obey the Pope, but their major teachings come from Catholicism rather than the Bible.
But, I say this governor should be excommunicated, as should all the fornicating priests and nuns and monks, because if a church does not enforce its beliefs among its adherents, it ceases to serve any purpose on Earth, and should disband.
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pcfield
Amen...So Be It!
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Rev. Brien
I wish I knew why grown people are still debating this stupid issue, yes I said STUPID. All of you are nothing more than fuel for the fire. Has anyone heard of...BIRTH CONTROL? How about...don't have intercourse? There are so MANY freakin choices that make abortion obsolete, yet you never bring that up. WHY? It is because if you did, argument is OVER! I am so sick of the world of stupid around me. I am tired of coddling full grown people who are suppose to be able to think for themselves. All of the phrases like "the church this", and"my body, my choice", and " the government...", all of these are nothing more than all of you wanting to argue just to hate. BIRTH CONTROL....you wanna have sex? Don't want a kid? Use BIRTH CONTROL!!!! No excuses. i mean NO EXCUSES. Use a condom, take a pill, what ever....for crying out loud, stop being STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!
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John Owens
Yep.
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pcfield
Absolutely true, but not just "stupid" I use your word, they are being selfish in not using birth control. Their pleasure is more important in the moment than thinking of any consequence to anyone else. Thus the STD's and abortions, except of course, when a mother's life is at stake. Selfness will be the downfall of mankind and society, just as in the past, so shall be the future if a society doesn't change its ways.
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Rev. Brien
Hey, stupid people, yeah you arguing over something that should be obsolete...there you go, now pay attention. 1: My body, my choice eh? USE FREAKIN BIRTH CONTROL!! 2. Don't want to be a dad? USE FREAKIN BIRTH CONTROL!! 3. Don't want to do adoption? USE FREAKIN BIRTH CONTROL!!! 4. Tired of having people tell you what to do? STOP BEING STUPID!!! On a final note, the best way NOT to have a baby is NOT having intercourse. Why, with all that is available, are you still having an argument about this? The only answer to that question is....... BECAUSE YOU ARE STUPID! Tell me, are there any practical people on here, or is it just a bunch of nuts?
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Valdis
I used birth control, and surprise, still got pregnant. So your logic is faulty. You’re literally telling humans to go against their own natural instincts. That’s why it doesn’t work.
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Jim
Don't go against your natural instincts just accept responsibility for your actions. Is Birth control 100% maybe not but it is 99%. With the morning after pills and all the other things on the market today I must Agree with Brien. There are many "natural instincts in humans" that does not mean its ok to do them. Going back to Neanderthal days our instincts were much different. While its still in our DNA we can abstain from acting on them.
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Rev. Brien
My logic is fine, your ability to follow instructions seems to be in question. I am damn tired of all of these pointless debates about crap that has already been dealt with. Just to fill some self righteous need to be more worthy than someone else. There is so much that needs attention, this does not. Here is a solution that works 100% of the time...DO NOT HAVE SEX. Since it is intercourse that creates the unwanted child, and since you are unable to follow instructions or read the research on birth control, stop having sex. Simple. Not hard to understand.
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Maria
Totally agree with you! People are stupid. But more then that they need to educate themselves on birth control and what really happens during an abortion!!! There is so much information out there! They need to google videos of abortions. If they still feel it’s not murder then they are sick and evil!
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pcfield
I also agree to see and hear is to know...
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Maria
God bless.
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Linda Happenny
I wonder what you tell women who had abortions. Do you tell them they are going to "hell" or they are a piece of ****? You are following a hateful "god" or You are just don't get it that women have rights to do what is right for them. Who are you to tell us what to do in the name of your mythical god.
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pcfield
You are right to say we have no right to tell you what to do with your body, but you must be ready to deal with the worst case scenario of having unprotected sex to please your body for that fleeting moment in time, As for the Christian God...He will forgive if one will repent their deeds because of ignorance or will. It is always your choice.
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Maria
If a woman is not knowledgeable or ignorant to the torturous procedure she is about to have performed on her baby-it is not her fault. And I believe that if you truly repent with all your heart GOD will be forgiving. That is if you believe in God. If you have had an abortion and you believe in eternal life then ask God for forgiveness. I don’t belong to any religion or political party but I do believe in God and I do believe that we should not hurt each other especially out weak, our disabled, our old, our sick, and especially our innocent unborn children. You do what you want with your life, but don’t judge or assume anything about people who are Pro Life. God bless!
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Tom
Only in the mind of a Liberal could murdering an innocent baby be ok and the shooting of a criminal or the execution of a death row inmate be wrong.
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Carl Elfstrom
I can't say whether or not I know that a fetus is alive. We didn't go that far in my nursing assistant course. However, I am sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that a fetus does not become a baby before it is born, so females who get abortions aren't killing babies. And it might not be any different than cutting off a finger. Who are any of us to say? We only have opinions, and y'all know what those smell like. So don't be disturbed by the contrary opinions of others, who don't know shit from shinola any more than the rest of us.
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John Owens
When that heart starts beating, it is alive. Not necessarily aware, but alive, like an adult in a coma. The point at which it becomes aware comes after that, but it is definitely somewhat aware before the second trimester ends.
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pcfield
I read or saw a documentary that the heart has memory of its own before the brain is even formed. Just throwing that out there to chew on...plus I am one who remembers my time in the womb because of the energy of life all around me. I can still feel today...
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Tom
Is it too late for Cuomo's mom to abort him?
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Maria
When I first heard that Gov Cuomo signed a law allowing a woman to murder her innocent baby up until birth I literally sobbed! At first I thought I heard wrong but then I found out that this horrific nightmare was all to true! Not only is this barbaric, evil, and wrong on all levels, I believe he deserves to burn in HELL! With that said the church should excommunicate him since we can’t impeach him or throw him in jail! This man needs to be punished at some level and excommunication seems to be the only option! Gov Cuomo has sold his soul to the DEVIL ? and he or anyone else who murders an innocent baby at any stage or any reason should burn in hell! If the Church doesn’t get involved then don’t expect anyone to respect the church!
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angel
You can't have all or nothing. An abortion is considered a medical procedure called a D&C. This procedure is also used when women miscarry and their body is not naturally releasing the fetus. Without this procedure, the woman will hemorrhage and die. I should know, I was one of them. However, my insurance wouldn't cover it because it was "an abortion". You have to define the word a "abortion" because as it stands now, it's a blanket statement that to many people refer to as killing babies. In my case, there was NO baby! Yes, things happen during pregnancy that could be life threatening. The point is, there is no black and white. This procedure is specifically labeled as an abortion but does not define the reason for it. You assume that is always by choice, when in fact , it is not always the case. There are many reasons why a woman may need to terminate a pregnancy and Christians need to stop taking taking the black and white stance. Some hospitals are so radical, they would rather allow a woman to die then to conduct this procedure at ALL! It's insane! The boundaries are not always set in stone and I think people need to think about that. Now, this that said, I am not a fan of people aborting a child just to do it. I am completely against late term abortion UNLESS, again, it will kill the mother/child to continue the pregnancy. But you also have to consider the type of life this child will live if you force a mother who doesn't want or love this child, what type of life will they have? Many mother's do drugs and their kids are born all messed up. They often turn into the mass shooters you are quick to execute. Listen to the stories of most of these kids in child care, same stories, same parents who were denied the abortion. It's not just life you have to consider the quality of it. Most of these mother's who choose to terminate their pregnancies don't want these children and these children are raised knowing this. They are raised all screwed up. Eddie Vetter from Pearl Jam is a great example. His mother wanted an abortion but his grandmother wouldn't let her do it. The kid grew up as a rock star, sure, but he lived his entire life knowing his mother and father didn't want or love him. He turned into an angry drug addict who got lucky. But he will be a tortured soul until the day he takes his last breathe. I'm not saying what is right or what is wrong, but the people who are so quick to stand up and fight for the rights of these babies to live are nowhere to be found while these children are being raised in a life of torment. Well, you did you job, saved a life, patted yourself on the back for a job well done and then you walk away. You have no interest in the child's life. You don't help the mother find support or hook her up with options for adoption, or pay to help raise the child, you don't offer assistance for rehab or anything. The church is so quick to judge and get their pats on the back yet literally leaves the child in hell. Most of these kids may actually be better off dying before they realize how unwanted they are, but instead, you insist on torturing them and leaving them. Then judge them for crimes they were predisposition to before birth. Catholic church demands NOT using birth control, yet when the family pops out 20 kids, the church does nothing to help support the families. It's sick!
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Maria
Educate yourself on birth control don’t use the church as an excuse!
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Maria
Anytime you abort a baby at any stage or for any reason it is an abortion or murder! I’m glad insurance companies don’t cover it! If a mother’s life is in jeopardy she can have a c section to remove the baby and pray it survives. Abortions rip a baby apart and torture them to death! There is no medical reason or any reason to have an abortion! It is NOT a medical procedure it is a lie and it is murdering an innocent baby! And this has nothing to do with being religious or being affiliated with any particular political party. It’s murder and Satan getting his way!
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John Owens
The old woman on the left of the pic, on Cuomo's right, gave false testimony to Congress before they passed Roe v. Wade.
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John Owens
I went to visit my grand-daughter yesterday. She is nearly three, and full of life and totally entertaining. We played and talked and teased each other and had a wonderful time together. I am so thankful to God that neither her mother nor father desired to end her precious life.
As irritating and misguided as I believe some of you are, I am also thankful that your parents did not desire to dismember any of you or boil you in saline inside your mother's wombs. The idea that it is somehow a good thing to be destroying as much of a future generation as possible is an indicator that our society has gone horribly astray.
Sad that people think it is better to kill infants than to prevent pregnancies in the first place. Sadder that this has become a Right/Left issue rather than a compassion/mercy issue.
Look how they're smiling, as if it is a joyful thing they are doing.
There is a reason Roe/Wade became codified in 1973! This abortion debate needs to end, as it is a suppression of the lower economic population only. As I have said before, no law is a good law if it cannot be applied to all, and the better off people will just go elsewhere to solve their reproductive problems! So this amounts to another suppression of the poor by the rich! We can only hope someone on $10.-/Hr pay is still covered under the ACA, Oh, wait, this current white house has disallowed that too, right??? So we should then go back to the bad old days where the poor had a slew of babies which they could not afford, could not feed, could not educate, but the welfare roll could also not carry them??? What do all of you want then, make up your minds, allow birth prevention supplies under the ACA or please stop this senseless talk!
You are so irrational. Nobody is opposed to birth control. Abortion is not birth control. "The poor" are having houses full of babies now so they can get more benefits. The abortion laws are not addressing the problems that Margaret Sanger, the prophetess you follow, was trying to solve with it. How about telling people not to screw around so much? The same "poor" who DO cause pregnancies and get pregnant, can afford cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, shoes, cell-phones, automobiles, and can't by condoms or birth control? Give us a break!
I know of some H.I.V. help centers that give away free condoms. I bet all of them do that. If poor people can suck in their false pride long enough to go in and get some. They might even say they are going to use them for balloons at a birthday party. I did volunteer work at one of those places for about a year, and never ran out of condoms.
correction: "...can't buy condoms..."
Maybe poor women should get off their backs and look for jobs and poor men stop bed hopping. Jobs are there, they just need to keep it in their pants long enough to get one.
For real, Tom. The problem is not babies, but rampant copulation by people uninterested in being parents. The babies are just the victims.
Evangelical christians are the spawn of the Devil. They go all out to protect the unborn, once they are here, then they couldn't care any less. Now they are through the Freedom Party formerly the Tea-Baggers, are about to roll it back to the 50s. They are coming for any social safety net in an attempt to reduce the population through death panels. Like I said, the spawn of the Devil.
NO mixing of religion and government. Your religious "beliefs" have NO relevance to laws that govern the the public. In addition, you will never give birth, so stay out of this that concerns you not at all. MY body, MY rules.
No religión nor government but to kill is to kill although if you kill a one week old baby you are charged with murder one but if you commit the act while still not visible then it is simply an abortion. The baby has a body tand his rules too oo and given the opportunity could rule he would choose to be kept alive. Now to religion because, after all, this is a religious forum into which you have decided to enter, for what reason I do not know. You see, it’s very hard to obey God because in doing so we disobey ourselves and to cover a mistake with somebody else’s blood is not a very ethical way out, don’t you agree?
It if's YOUR body, YOU can pay for your abortion and birth control and leave me and my tax dollars out of it. If my tax dollars go into it, I DAMNED SURE have a say. Now, I did not mention religion and government or my religious beliefs AT ALL, so what the heck are you talking about? Did you IMAGINE that I made a bunch of religious statements? What has religion got to do with it?
Yep!
Anna...well said...and i still do not see the "pro-life" crowd advocating they should personally take care of the "children" they do not want aborted...a major example of being phoney sanctimonious...Peace... Tom
Who is being phony here, Tom? My parents took care of my siblings and me. I and my siblings took care of OUR children. Our children take of THEIR children. None of us had them killed so we could buy a car or a house. We only had as many as we could provide for. There was no need for anyone to kill a baby. None. Zero.
So you think because I, being now a senior citizen, cannot quit work and take care of a child (that someone else made but did not want to care for it), that I, John Owens, am being phony or sanctimonious?
If you are going to level that kind of judgment at people who are opposed to abortion (those abortions as a matter of convenience, not 100% of abortions), how come you don't level anywhere NEAR that kind of acrimony at the people who create these "fetuses" only to want someone else to pay for killing them? HUH? What about that, Tom? I mean, how is it phony that I cannot personally take care of someone else's kid, if it isn't phony for them to make that kid, and then want me to help pay for killing it? What kind of weird-ass double standard do you use to measure reality?
John...Respectfully, there is no double standard here...the fact that your family takes care of its children is great, but it has nothing to do with pro-lifers refusing to address the care of children that are either unwanted or have "parents" that can not take care of them...if you actually believe you have the "right" to force children into this world, then you have the equal responsibility to see that they receive care...and if, as you say, you can not take care of these children, then be active in trying to get others to do so.....Peace...Tom
Tom, what do you mean, "force children into the world...refusing to address the care of children..."? NOBODY ever claimed to have a right to force children into the world.
Incredibly stupid people apparently feel they have a right to MAKE children, then force the rest of us to approve as they KILL them. I want the people who make the children to take care of them, or just STOP making them.
Why is this artificial choice of killing the babies or having someone else take care of them always being touted? Who invented that stupid argument?
Besides, the housing projects are TEEMING with children with no daddies, and mothers who keep having babies by different men. They are fed, clothed, housed, and sent to school, so you can't really tell me nobody cares about them. Their daddies certainly should care more about them. I think if you make a child and don't support it and DNA says you are the father, you should be sterilized. The same goes for women, too. If they need two abortions and there is no accusation of rape, tubal ligation. No more dead babies.
If you want to pretend to be rational, address the true issues with truth, and don't parrot the tired arguments that are fed to the masses.
John...this is in regard to your post of 2/6 at 8:18 am...Respectfully, John, I feel you consider yourself a compassionate person, and that is good...however, please consider the following: we all are a part of, and come from God...therefore, we are all equal, and all should receive the same compassion...we each have our separate paths to follow through our many lifetimes, and, obviously, are at different points on our paths to our return to God...the point is that babies are forced into the world when they are not wanted, and as they are born the compassion to have society care for them is not a political issue...you seem to feel it is necessary to strike at the babies because their parents will not, or can not, care for them...if you want to be angry at the parents for allowing these pregnancies, that is understandable...i certainly agree with you that children should be taught about, and provided the means, for birth control...but it is not the babies who did not learn about, or practice birth control; so why punish them by forcing them to be born, and then refusing to have society care for them?...to me, that is not compassion...people are entitled to be against abortion, but their humanity should not stop at that point...i am not attacking you; i write for understanding...Peace...Tom
Tom, you say it is forcing the babies to be born. I say it is giving them a shot at life. Do you think someone should go around killing starving and sick babies? At what age should they be allowed to keep living? That is what it seems that you are advocating, in spite of the fact that there would be very few of these aborted babies sick OR starving.
I am gathering you are a proponent of euthanasia. I am, when an ADULT is suffering with no end in sight. An adult has the capacity to make an informed decision about whether they want to live or die.
I marvel at how callous toward the helpless and innocent all the people who try to claim the moral high ground of compassion are. The women make it all about THEM. I think it is unnatural for a woman to prefer her own life over her baby's. I think it is unnatural for the father to do so, also. If they are right, mankind should ALL commit suicide because there is no hope for a race that kills its own offspring for sheer convenience.
I agree. This isn’t even a religious issue. It’s a moral issue that is wrong.
Yep. Shouldn't have to be religious at ALL to see that this is anti-human and inhumane.