In a rare legal win for conversion therapy advocates, the city of New York has been ordered to pay out over $100,000 in attorney’s fees and damages to the legal group representing an Orthodox Jewish therapist who performs gay conversion therapy for adults at his practice. This latest chapter in NYC’s multi-year war against conversion therapy, a practice widely viewed as harmful and dangerous, has delivered a surprising setback to critics.
While state law prohibits conversion therapy for minors, in 2017 New York City passed an ordinance prohibiting the practice altogether – even for consenting adults. Dr. Dovid Schwartz, an Orthodox Jewish psychotherapist, sued the city in 2019, arguing that the ban on conversion therapy violated the religious freedom of him and his clients. Ultimately, the city caved and repealed the ban themselves to avoid a costly lawsuit.
ADF Gets a Win
Dr. Schwartz was represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), an activist group familiar to regular readers of this blog. It was the ADF that represented Jack Phillips, a Denver-area cakeshop owner who was sued by a gay couple after he refused to make a cake for their wedding, citing his Christian beliefs. That case went all the way to the Supreme Court.
The ADF regularly challenges LGBT protections and abortion rights – a reputation that has earned it a "hate group" classification from the Southern Poverty Law Center.
But in this case, they clearly got the best of the government. New York City will be forced to cover ADF's legal fees as well as pay damages to the plaintiff – over $100,000 in total.
It didn’t take long for the ADF to take a victory lap. In a statement, ADF Senior Counsel Roger Brooks said:
“New York City directly violated our client’s freedom of speech by trying to regulate and censor private sessions between an adult and his therapist. Because of their religious beliefs and personal life goals, clients who seek [Dr. Schwartz’s] counsel often desire to experience opposite-sex attraction so they can marry, form a natural family, and live consistently with their Orthodox Jewish faith.”
Do No Harm
Conversion therapy has a track record so poor that it's impossible to ignore. The traumatic effects associated with the practice are so intense that those who've been put through it are often referred to as 'survivors.' It has been denounced by both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. And not only is there zero evidence you can effectively "pray the gay away," soaring youth suicide and depression rates in connection with the practice have led to it being banned in many places.
But this case was different: the patients in question are consenting adults engaged in a private consultation with a religious official. Therefore, instead of sparking a debate around youth consent, this case focused on a clash between religious liberty and a potentially harmful psychological practice.
Religious Liberty, or Malpractice?
Doctors have an obligation to "do no harm." So, critics point out, how can a licensed professional be allowed to legally carry out a method that's been clearly proven to be dangerous?
But supporters argue that what happens between an individual adult and their trained psychiatrist is an entirely private matter – especially when religious beliefs are involved. If a person's religion frowns upon same-sex attraction and they want to abide by that guideline, they should have every right to follow their faith convictions and seek out an expert who is willing to work with them, proponents say.
What do you think? Should gay conversion therapy be legal for adults on freedom of religion and free speech grounds? Or is the practice simply too harmful to be legal?
51 comments
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Rev. Jonathan Peebles
I left the Christian Church because of the same debate that homosexuality is wrong in Gods eyes but I know people hate when I say this but men are not perfect and God did not come down from the heavens and actually write the Bible but Men did and fro a time Women had no place in the Church even and of course even though I happen to be a man I am more of a feminist and women never get much of there voices heard. However someone I used to know at my old Vinyard told me that he thinks it is OK for a man to love a man but they can never actually make love (Sigh) as I guess sodomy which which even includes anything other than regular making a baby sex is forbidden. I know for a fact that even strait men commit sodomy that just assume it means one thing. Love is Love despite all that and I still hope there God is better than that but every God or Godesses seems to have something you may not always be 100% sure about right or wrong...
Sorry to go in a loop I have a bit of Aspergers and tend to ramble on but I tried to keep it short since I suck at typing...
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Robert A Stiff
I think christians should undergo conversion therapy to rid themselves of a false and hateful belief system. More hate and bigotry flows from religion than from any other source.
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Delphine S. Pillar
Conversion therapy is mind control and teaches people to hate what they are. That is totally not what Jesus was about, he stated that categorically. The original scriptures are not even taught today. The Christianity being taught has had the meat taken out of it, and it was altered to be more about control than spirituality during the reign of Constantine and the Catholic church. What was condemned in the bible from the original interpretation was an act of rape by a son against the father, also pedophilia , it doesn't mention about the relationship between two loving adults. If being gay or homosexual were just a matter of choice, but it's not, it has a medical basis, any attempts to change that is pure, conditioned mind control. That is not what true spirituality and love of God is about. Even the concept of sin was changed by the church. The original translation of the word sin was, " To miss the mark." That has a whole other connotation then the church has put on it and is why so many people are neurotic and do not accept themselves as they are. The "Friend", God or the Presence, whatever way you see it is totally accepting and full of love and compassion, That compassion is overwhelming and includes everyone. I was happy to see the acceptance shown here for our brothers and sisters , love is never wrong, but hate is. Aggression is wrong, whether it's psychological, political, emotional, or physical. If anyone is interested in the original scriptures, the "Dead Sea Scrolls", the "Nag Hammadi Library", and " Jacobs Ladder" give a better sense of early Christian thought. http://originalgospel.ebionite.com/#SoulEvolution Much of this was suppressed by the church and so much was removed including things about Jesus childhood. http://brotherofyeshua.com/covenant.htm#TurnAbout
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T Kosse`
Freedom of Religion does not give you right to practice your religion, if it may cause mental or physical harm to another.
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Delphine S. Pillar
Conversion therapy is a travesty, it should be illegal and it is a violation of human rights. Religion could be a force for good, but why does it end up doing so much harm in this world? I did in-depth studies for a piece I wrote on transgender and gay people and the origination of their condition. Scientific studies of the brains of transgender and gay people noted differences in brain structure. It is not a choice of lifestyle it is a physical condition. You are born gay or transgender. Chemical changes occur in the womb during pregnancy, every fetus starts out basically female, it is only through chemical changes occurring later in pregnancy that the baby becomes male. So these are natural events that occur in the range of normal. So by persecuting these people you are basically saying God made a mistake, or that what occurs in nature is unnatural. It occurs in nature with other species as well, in fact some species can change gender during their life span or have the capabilities of both. People should stop judging and persecuting these people. If anything they are a blessing because they don't have unwanted children, or add to the overpopulation. "Luke 23:29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’" Why, because many adopt unwanted children that others leave to die, because overpopulation will become an increasing problem along with dwindling resources. Religion should not be about exclusivity or regulating God's creativity of manifestation. Neither should it be about persecution. Love and accept all God's children. They are here for a reason.
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Sally Gates
This is exactly what happens with penguins. Gay penguin couples serve a really important role within the penguin community, as when something happens to one of the breeding pairs, or a pair accidentally produce two eggs, an egg is abandoned and the gay couple step in to adopt. They help and support the colony as a whole, in a way that breeding penguins can't because they're busy with their own eggs. Homosexuality occurs in 97% of species; homophobia occurs in only one. Remind me which one is unnatural?
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Alexander Clarke
Same thing with conversion to a religion.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It's all about prejudiced people trying to force others to be the same way they are. They won't accept anyone being different than them. And unfortunately, some good gay people feel a need to be accepted by them, even if it means losing themselves by pretending to be something they're not.
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Master Wolf KSC
I ceased practicing in a Christian venue because of how little their God was. He hated all the characteristics the congregation hated. I being in one of the classes of damned things that they hated, it became harder and harder for me to play along.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I will admit that I do not fully understand homosexuality (or a person's transgender imperative), however, do not need full understanding to offer tolerance and courtesy to that person. Heck, I don't understand myself fully.
Also, I believe I do know enough that any kind of therapy's good effects are only to help a person understand themselves better, not change who they are fundamentally. I do think, and believe, that being homosexual, transgender, heterosexual, ambisexual, cisgender, asexual or gender fluid, are bedrock to a person's being.
If a fully informed adult person wishes to undergo this so-called "conversion" therapy, more power to them. But, I also think such should be done by a qualified, well-educated mental health professional, not some other person.
By the way, I consider myself a conservative classic liberal. Both modern conservatism and liberalism have run away from me.
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Lionheart
Just what is the procedure for conversion therapy? Is it like the de-conversion therapy practiced be secular therapists for those who have been indoctrinated into religion and who have suffered serious harm and are looking to get out of religion? Just asking!
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Michelle Bella Dellaca
Most conversion therapy involves rape, torture, humiliation, and brain washing.
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T Kosse`
Many acts of conversion therapy bear strong similarities to internationally acknowledged act of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment. It is considered that these acts will subject the individual to significant or severe mental and physical pain and suffering with long-term harmful effects – as the treatment is inherently humiliating, demeaning and discriminatory.
Even though children and minors are particularly vulnerable, there has been reported sharp increase of suicidal and depressive tendencies even amongst young adults that have gone through conversion therapy
Even if an individual ‘voluntarily’ seeks out conversion therapy, they can be motivated to do so due to social norms in their society. The therapist can add to the pain by reinforcing a sense of feeling wrong and a need to be fixed. This can leave patients with unexpressed feelings which potentially can be very damaging.
“The combined effects of feeling powerless and extreme humiliation generate profound feelings of shame, guilt, self-disgust and worthlessness which can result in a damaged self-concept and enduring personality changes
There are common points for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), chronic stress and negative health consequences such as stomach ulcers, skin diseases, migraines, sexual and eating disorders, vomiting and insomnia.
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T Kosse`
Conversion therapy is a set of practices that aim to change or alter an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity. It is premised on a belief that an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity can be changed and that doing so is a desirable outcome for the individual, family, or community. Other terms used to describe this practice include sexual orientation change effort (SOCE), reparative therapy, reintegrative therapy, reorientation therapy, ex-gay therapy, and gay cure.
Conversion therapy is practiced in every region of the world. We have identified sources confirming or indicating that conversion therapy is performed in over 60 countries.
In those countries where it is performed, a wide and variable range of practices are believed to create change in an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Some examples of these include: talk therapy or psychotherapy (e.g., exploring life events to identify the cause); group therapy; medication (including anti-psychotics, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, and psychoactive drugs, and hormone injections); Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (where an individual focuses on a traumatic memory while simultaneously experiencing bilateral stimulation); electroshock or electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) (where electrodes are attached to the head and electric current is passed between them to induce seizure); aversive treatments (including electric shock to the hands and/or genitals or nausea-inducing medication administered with presentation of homoerotic stimuli); exorcism or ritual cleansing (e.g., beating the individual with a broomstick while reading holy verses or burning the individual’s head, back, and palms); force-feeding or food deprivation; forced nudity; behavioural conditioning (e.g., being forced to dress or walk in a particular way); isolation (sometimes for long periods of time, which may include solitary confinement or being kept from interacting with the outside world); verbal abuse; humiliation; hypnosis; hospital confinement; beatings; and “corrective” rape.
Conversion therapy appears to be performed widely by health professionals, including medical doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, sexologists, and therapists. It is also conducted by spiritual leaders, religious practitioners, traditional healers, and community or family members. Conversion therapy is undertaken both in contexts under state control,
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Jack Gerber
Thank you for explaining the details. I knew of its existence but had no idea how bad it was. No wonder the effects are so bad. It is absolutely something not to be permitted. Just talking, for someone who does not want to be gay for whatever reason, is fine between two consenting adults and that should not be restricted but anything else is disgusting and outrageous.
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James Riggle-Johnson
It can lead to tortue and humiliation, but I'm not sure about rape.
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Michelle Bella Dellaca
I have friends who have gone through it, it does.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I bet there's a much larger percentage of good gay people than straights. Why don't they try converting straights into gays. I bet the world would be a much more peaceful place.
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Master Wolf KSC
I don't care if people are straight, as long as they act gay in public.
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T Kosse`
Religious freedom protects people’s right to live, speak, and act according to their beliefs peacefully and publicly. It protects their ability to be themselves at work, in class, and at social activities.
Ok, that sounds good, but does such “freedom” allow people to do whatever they want under the cover of religion?
Well, that answer is no. The Supreme Court has said the federal government may limit religious freedom – but only when it has a “compelling interest” to do so in order to protect the common good and limit people’s ability to harm others.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've heard that straight often means straight to bed. However, they still think they're straight the next morning. Sometimes, I've also heard, they only wanted to know how it makes their wives feel. Of course, we all have masculine and feminine characteristics, and it's best to maintain a healthy balance between the two. That has something to do with yin yang.
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Minister Mike
That's pretty much the way it is everywhere - lose the lawsuit pay the winner's legal fees.
And if a gay person feels better after the conversion therapy, who am I - or anyone else - to tell them it doesn't work? Lets not let facts influence they're decisions if they don't want facts involved. They're adults and can make their own decisions, even if their still gay after therapy.
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T Kosse`
The only way I see is to ban the practice of conversion therapy all together on a federal level. That no one is allowed the practice of conversion therapy in the United States. They can not claim they are being discriminated against since the law don't just target religious groups, but it applies to everyone equally
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Minister Carlos Ricardo Walls
The arrogance of a few powerful people has turned society into another Sodom and Gomorrah.The almighty God destroyed this place many eons ago.How will humanity be saved this time?
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Lionheart
Certainly not by the poor moral standards if the mythical genocidal Christian god, or any god for that matter.
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arawngraalrd
Conversion Therapy, how is that a Method or Practice? If the focus is on a desired result, it could lead into dangerous practices or methods, but competant therapists should have no problem. Conversion wouldn't work as a desired result, since the first step, is that Sexuality be resolved as a problem. Many "Therapists," would be defeated, if asked to help with a problem, because they've no idea how to do such a thing. Psychiatrists would be below the bottom of the barrel, since they've no idea what Therapy would be, or how or even whether, it works; Psychiatrists only push drugs, and should never be approached. Sexuality as a problem, Communication/Honesty within and about Birth Community, then the problems of Reproduction and Reincarnation. End result, an ancestor should be reincarnated amongst grandchildren. It's not a problem, if you know what you're doing. A.S.Neil describes how none of those graduates who would have told him so, ever told him that they were homosexual, and all he wanted, was for them to be happy. So, we have a hint.
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John P Maher
WELL SAID and NOTED Delphine S. Pillar, BRAVO and GO FORWARD !!!
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The Rev. William C, Millhouse
This is indeed very sad news. However, just because it is available does not mean that it must be used. No One ever should be forced to undergo it.
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Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN
This is my opinion. Since before the days of Yeshua ben Joseph (Jesus), jews, regardless of their feelings towards the opposite sex or same sex, married. That was the way it was done. Yeshua felt that gays were just as entitled to be part of the religious community as homosexuals. There's proof that he condoned it. How can you pretend to be something that you aren't? You can't and then you make every one around you miserable. Take Peter. He really didn8like women and really almost hated Mary Magdalene to the point that he painted her as a prostitute, even though she was Yeshua's wife and whom he had picked to lead his church, not Peter. Fast forwRd: I totally disagreed with the gsy couple using a baker for not making their wedding cake because it violated his beliefs. This scenario has played out time and time again. I get the teen thing as many teens try out different things while trying to find out who they are. One girl that I knew was pretending to be gay and even went to her prom with a gay girlfriend. It was done to get her family's attention. There was a problem with the dad who was addicted to pain pills and booze. Sad situation. She eventually turned it around, although was very angry and directed towards her mother. She did marry a nice guy and had a son. But we aren't talking children here. We are talking about a consenting adult who wants desperately to fit into his faith and is willing to go through hell to do it. Whether he survives and decides to remain in the faith and practice according to its guidelines really is up to him, but there's a high failure rate. He has the right to try and the psychiatrist is also willing to help him try. What's so awful about that? Gays and mainly straight people would say that it's wrong to make a person be something that he's not unless it was their own child. In many orthodox religions, you are shunned if you don't comply with the guidelines. Children know this from birth almost. Even marrying outside of the religion can cause this unless one of the spouses caved and joins the group formerly. Is this any less wrong or right? I feel this way. A person should be accepted regardless of their sexual preference just so they don't make a big deal out of it. By making a big deal out of it, they are inviting to be shunned. Is it a compromise? Yes. Should they marry someone who is straight and expects to be treated that way in every sense of the word regardless of the fact that their heart is screaming that it's wrong, could they give through with it? Orthodox Jews sign legal documents. It's not just getting under the tent and breaking a glass after sealing the vows with a kiss and drink of wine, it's that little person inside of you that tells you right from wrong. That's why ultimately, despite his best try, the odds are stacked against him. But trying is a learning curve and he deserves that right.
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T Kosse`
"He has the right to try and the psychiatrist is also willing to help him try. What's so awful about that?"
How about this. Why don't you go through conversion therapy, then tell us whether or not you still feel the same way about it, since as you say "What so awful about that".
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T Kosse`
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seem to me that you're saying that it's okay to be gay, just don't be openly gay. In other words, get back into the closet, so I don't have look at you.
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T Kosse`
Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment and Torture
Torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment are unequivocally prohibited, without exception, by the UN Convention against Torture as well as other international and regional human rights instruments. The UN Committee against Torture, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, the UN Subcommittee on Prevention of Torture, and the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) have stated that conversion therapy contravenes the prohibition against torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. In its 2015 annual report, the OHCHR stressed that states “have an obligation to protect all persons, including LGBT and intersex persons, from torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” and found that conversion therapy breaches this duty
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T Kosse`
This is to ULC What I wrote about Conversion therapy and Cult Deprogramming is in answer to Lionheart question therefore, I think it should be posted it may be shocking, but sometime the truth isn't always pleasant. As for any as for mention masturbation or other sexual content in what I posted, all I can say is that we all are supposedly adults here so they should be able handle reading those words
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T Kosse`
In May 2018, the UN Independent Expert on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity observed that:
“The violence reported against persons on the basis of their actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity also includes… so-called ‘conversion therapy’. Considering the pain and suffering caused and the implicit discriminatory purpose and intent of these acts, they may constitute torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment in situation where a State official is involved, at least by acquiescence.”
Subsequently, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture in July 2019 affirmed that: “given that ‘conversion therapy’ can inflict severe pain or suffering, given also the absence both of a medical justification and of free and informed consent, and that it is rooted in discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity or expression, such practices can amount to torture or, in the absence of one or more of those constitutive elements, to other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”21
Based on these findings, the UN Committee against Torture, the UN Independent Expert on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, and the OHCHR have all called upon states to ban the practice. In 2016, the UN Committee against Torture recommended that a state take “the necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to guarantee respect for the autonomy and physical and personal integrity of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex persons and prohibit the practice of so-called ‘conversion therapy’.” State Involvement and Responsibility
The UN Convention against Torture and other international and regional human rights instruments not only prohibit torture, but oblige states to prevent public authorities from “directly committing, instigating, inciting, encouraging, acquiescing in or otherwise participating or being complicit in any acts of torture” and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
In several countries, we have found that public officials are directly involved in the provision of conversion therapy. In some cases, the therapy is offered and performed by medical personnel in state hospitals, public clinics, schools, and juvenile detention centers. Sometimes, the therapy is performed pursuant to an order by public officials, judges, or the police. All these acts would seem to contravene the international legal obligations of these states to prohibit and prevent torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
Furthermore, states have a responsibility to “prohibit, prevent and redress torture and ill-treatment in all contexts of custody and control,” not just those operated by public entities. We have found in almost 30 countries that conversion therapy is being committed, instigated or supported by private institutions and private individuals acting in an official capacity and executing a state function. This includes health professionals in private clinics performing conversion therapies or private schools providing it. The UN Convention against Torture and other human rights instruments require that states oversee the provision of services that are in the public interest, such as health and education. As stated by the UN Committee against Torture, states have the special duty to protect the life and personal integrity of persons by regulating and supervising these services, regardless of whether the entity providing them is public or private.
Accordingly, personnel in private hospitals and clinics as well as teachers are considered to act in an official capacity on behalf of the state, as they are executing a state function and should similarly be prevented from directly committing, instigating, inciting, encouraging, acquiescing in, or otherwise participating or being complicit in any acts of torture and ill-treatment, including conversion therapy.
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Darrell White
Protect religious freedom and free speech.The state,(or in this case the city)has no business dictating what one can believe or say,.You do realize that these are adults whom obviously are conflicted with their sexuality and are seeking guidance.This case is a win for religious liberty ,and that my fellow clergy members,is a win for us all.
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Darrell White
Protect religious freedom and free speech.The state,(or in this case the city)has no business dictating what one can believe,or say,.You do realize that these are adults whom obviously are conflicted with their sexuality,and are seeking guidance.This case is a win for religious liberty ,and that my fellow clergy members,is a win for us all.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Likewise others can't tell my church to stop welcoming gays and preforming same sex weddings
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Jason Andrew Teller
It's unconstitutional to pass a law that restricts the free practice of religious institutions and/or one's religion. So, yes, religions may offer conversion classes, and folks who desire such a service may obtain it (assuming that it's offered).
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T Kosse`
Darrell White & Jason Andrew Teller. You both really are sick people and the fact that you consider yourself "good Christians", disgust me even further and that goes for anyone else that is okay with conversion therapy and think a gay person feels better after the conversion therapy.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Those conversionists ought to try a dose of their own medicine, even if we have to hog-tie them first. They'll never walk the same after that, to say the least. And, they might even beg for more!
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Dean Alan Walker
Would a physician or pharmacist be allowed to sell to an unsuspecting public a vaccine, let’s say for Covid-19, if it had been proven at best useless and at worst Dangerous? No. Not even if the public was desperately consenting to be bilked. Religious rights, so called, have been weaponized against vulnerable communities. It’s enraging to see the courts agree to it.
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Richard Lee Cornell
Is this not being used in China as the Chinese government used conversion of the citizens from Islam to that of the government belief. In Islam you take a person from being a Christian and convert them to Islam. If they will not convert you make them a slave. If that does not work you take off their head. Seem to remember this was once the way the Catholic Church when the came to the Americas used this tactic against the native populations.
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Lionheart
Catholic Priests have tried conversion therapy using their rape technique to get children to see the truth, the way, and the light. Why am I thinking that technique is not working?
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Brother Thomas Knight, esq
I am afraid that I must agree with the court -- for now. The prohibition against these treatments for minors, is easily defensible because the advocates cannot demonstrate that the treatments will not HARM the child. Which gives those who want to ban these "treatments" the tool they need to combat it. Those who wish to use should be made to keep accurate records to prove their success rate. Thos must include follow-ups to determine if the procedures work and 'stick'.
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CB Cuff
Psychotherapy isn't an event or process which exists in a void. There are thousands out there that call themselves therapists, with no formal training. Most churches have 'counselors' for various application from grief to spiritual guidance, but they do not qualify as being referred to as therapists. Unfortunately there is minimal regulation in the USA and Canada, so it's a free-for-all market allowing just about anyone to call themselves a therapist...... and charge (rob) people hundreds of dollars/hr. Does televangelist come to mind?? In addition to all the charlatans and fakers preying on people in need, are the institutions in the USA where anyone can purchase credentials. That is an uphill battle for lawmakers and regulators when it is all done on-line. Always , always , always check the credentials ie BA, MA, Phd, with licencing bodies, and not just the institute that issued the paperwork.....many of them are not recognized as credible sources by government. The reason I say government is in many cases private practitioners are billing government, and back-checks (credentials) are more thoroughly scrutinized. Some still get through however. Always ask for experience. There are 'therapists' that seem to have lived many lifetimes, given all their experiences and areas of 'expertise'. Conversion 'therapy' is not therapy as a professional practitioner would describe it because it contains all the hallmarks of predator and prey scripting.
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The Heretic Hour
The children must be protected. Adults decide for their own selves.
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Christian
ALL People can pay to modify their body... if they would like to modify their education, their career, or their beliefs - this is their right ! Consumer Rights... Your money, your purchase - do no harm and Enjoy Existing ! LOVE LIFE !
You only get a few hundred years in this body, and for humans - many live far shorter life spans... Make the best use of it and enjoy your time while you are here visiting this world... Time Goes F A S T !
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Kassie Bramlett
Ive come to believe that as long as its not harming anyone then why do christians concern themselves with using the old covenant or old testament to harass and provoke people to anger when the new testament makes no mention of gay people. There is enough hate and bigotry in this world must we keep a closed mind and not progress and not get over old teachings of our leadership who were ignorant and just got it completely wrong so they could control the masses and their fear to speak up for jesus who died to cover all sin debt did not mean to pick verses from the old testament to strike fear in peoples hearts. I dont fear god i love him. And the bible also speaks of there being neither male nor female but we all are one .gal 3:28. So personally i do not care to get in a shouting match with people who try to mind other peoples business.
The first time I heard the word "gay", I was in my 20's. I was married.... my husband was in Cape May in the Coast Guard.... rather than the Army [drafted].... and that was the beginning.
I never heard about "gay" in church. I was raised in the church... protected... it wasn't mentioned.
Now... I've studied the Bible.... from Genesis to Acts 13 [So far] and I do not see that Eunuchs [physically or psychologically] being bashed. As a matter of fact... Daniel [the guy everyone quotes about end time] was a Eunuch due to war.... he was castrated.... and castrated meant he could no longer attend Temple..... it wasn't his fault... but he was banned....
What kind of conversion therapy would Daniel have required?
People.... God wanted us to be kind to one another...... there were only two commandments left by Jesus, the Son of the One Living God ..... Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind....was the first...... and Treat each other as you want to be treated....was the second...... two commandments.... and I don't see anything about being "gay" or not being "gay".
This is made up by the church.... because haters have to hate.... and bigots have deep pockets....
Well said Rebecca.
Thank you Rebecca. People often forget that we are supposed to love one another but instead we make that love conditional. Live how I want you to live and I will love you.