A Missouri church recently made some shocking claims that are sure to knock you off your feet.
John Lindell, pastor of James River Church in the Springfield, Missouri area, is getting national attention after his congregation supposedly regrew a woman’s severed toes through the power of prayer.
The reported miracle has left many in disbelief... literally.
Skeptics smell something fishy, and now they're asking for the receipts.
They've even created an entire website asking for proof. It is titled, fittingly, ShowMeTheToes.com.
Heeling Power of Prayer
The missing toes in question belong to a woman named Krissy Thompson. Thompson had three toes amputated in 2015 after she was shot by her husband (and contemporary news articles corroborate that report).
Thompson was apparently attending a service when Pastor Lindell asked if anyone in the audience needed a “creative miracle.”
Regrowing three lost toes would be quite the miracle, indeed. But she says what happened next is mindblowing, defying all laws of science and human biology: the toes grew back.
Like, instantly. Video below:
“All the women got down and they prayed over my foot,” Thompson explained. “I decided to take my shoe off to see what was happening when (Pastor Bill Johnson) said, ‘Let’s see the progress or if anything’s happened.’”
“I saw three toes that were forming,” Thompson said, “and now there’s length to them tonight.”
The pastor later echoed these claims in a Facebook post. Within 30 minutes, he said, the formerly amputated toes were longer than her pinky toe. Within an hour, toenails began regrowing.
Another visiting pastor in attendance, Bill Johnson, confirmed the miracle and retold it to his congregation:
Cracks Form In The Story
If true, this would be a genuine medical and spiritual miracle. It would also potentially provide hard evidence for the healing power of prayer.
It's clearly a big "if," though – there’s no video of the event, and Thompson refuses to show anyone the regrown toes.
Well, one motivated group isn’t letting her off the hook, and they seem determined to see proof of this supposed miracle.
Send Feet Pics!
ShowMeTheToes.com wants one thing: verified photos of the toes. Here's a preview:
The hope is that this newly-created a website will force Thompson's hand. Err, foot.
“If you have photographic/video evidence this occurred, provide it and we will share it on this page,” the group’s website claims. “So far, James River and Krissy have provided zero proof.”
Apparently, the church is pushing back, arguing that sharing photos would be an invasion of privacy.
But the group behind the website isn't buying it.
“They never had provide [sic] her identity and chose to exploit her instead of protect her from the beginning,” the site says. “It is obvious they never thought what John shared from the stage would end up creating the viral Facebook post at the top of this page. If there is proof SHOW IT!”
So far, both the church and Krissy Thompson are refusing to show images of the miraculously regrown toes.
Are Miracles Real?
What do you think – it is possible for toes to regrow with prayer? And if so, do the individuals involved have an obligation to share proof with the world?
Did a miracle really occur in Missouri, or is this more likely a case of a church making an outrageous and unsubstantiated claim that they didn't anticipate going viral?
92 comments
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Joe Stutler
There's one born every minute.
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Lionheart
I'm toeing the line on this one, but hey...if people believe someone walked on water, rose from the dead, and someone parted the Red Sea, they'll believe in anything. 🤷🏼
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John D. Partin
Anyone who believed or still believes that a person who told 30,000 lies during his term as "president", and sat in the White House residence watching TV and playing with his Twitter account, and incited his followers to attack the Capitol on January 6, 2021, among many other wrong things, was still "our greatest president and better than Biden" shouldn't ever comment on other people's gullibility and should be right up there near or at the front of the line of those who believe that the woman's toes were restored to her.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!! Your beliefs about Trumpelstiltskin make any other beliefs about walking on water, raising from the dead, parting the Red Sea, and all other Christian beliefs that you ridicule look like the height of scientific thinking by comparison!
Not to mention your totally illogical belief that a mindless universe is doing anything for itself. Anyone who believed or believes what you believe would believe anything!!-
Ilmenheru Terikson
More than likely they had access to powdered pig matrix particles. They are a real thing used in experimental regeneration. No idea how they got their hands on something mainly used by the military on wounded combat vets but it is the mostly likely way the regeneration part of the story could be true.
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Colleen McAllister
Lionheart, ever the skeptic. Miracles are real. I have seen and experienced several myself. I also have seen and experienced healings that came after prayer. I pray that someday you do as well.
As to this woman's toes regrowing. Nope. Don't believe it. Possible? Yes. But the regrowth would be slow and subtle. Just as when a salamander or other creature regrows a part. Show me her toes. This I don't believe.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
"miracles" are just nature at work. it just seems "miraculous" to the ignorant
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
First god lets the husband blow her toes off, then regrows them?
So the lord giveth, taketh away, then says ‘Naw, just screwing with you, good buddy.’ and grows them back.
Religious people….
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Colleen McAllister. Is this the best miracle God can do these days? Grow a few toes?
What happened to the God who performed miracles such as creating life the universe? Parting the Red Sea? Turing water into wine? Best miracle God can do these days is grow a few toes?
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Colleen McAllister
@DouglasRobertSpindler did you not read my post? I do not believe that this woman's toes regrew. Read the whole thing before commenting.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Colleen McAllister But you believe in miracles and said you even experienced a miracle as well? Yet you refuse to believe this miracle. How do you choose which miracles to believe and which ones not to believe? Does God tell you and no one else?
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Colleen McAllister
Comment removed by user.
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Lionheart
I've seen people sawn in half in a box on a stage and the box was put back together and the person that was cut in half got up and walked away on the stage to an applause. Truly a miracle, Colleen?
Now...if only they could go to children's hospitals and raise those from the dead that have just died of cancer, or even just a little miracle and heal all of them. I think we both know that's not going to happen, don't we?
I think you'll find that what you have seen/witnessed, are things that you don't understand, just like the person in the box. And when people got well you have decided it was a miracle from a god. And those that didn't get well, you will decide it's because you will believe that your god didn't want them to get well because your god has a better plan for them. It's the "get-out clause" that religious people use when things don't go the way they would like.
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Colleen McAllister
Here we go again. I do know the difference between a trick and a miracle. No matter what I say you will disagree and I will not cast my "pearls before swine". Continue to not believe as you choose. As for me I will continue to believe in what I have seen. God. Creator of the universe.
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Lionheart
The reality is, Colleen, you have seen the universe in all of its wonder, and you have decided that someone, that you'd like to call a deity, created it. The truth is, no one has any idea as to how it all originated. There have been a variety of theories, like the Big Bang, because everything appears to be traveling from a known center, but we still really don't know, do we?
Yes, you can say a deity must have done it, because something can't come from nothing, but that same logic is also applied to the god that you want to believe did it. Where did he come from? Did he just magically appear somehow out of nothing? Could that same logic also apply to the Universe?
It really is okay to say we actually don't know, and I guess what you are saying is that because you don't really know, and you've read stories that sound plausible to you, even though there's no evidence, you want to believe it, because if you don't, it will shake your "belief" in a god.
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John D. Partin
It has already been explained to you, exhaustively, why God wouldn't or couldn't have or need a creator for Him, too, and you forget it from one post to the next, making us all know that you must have Alzheimer's.
The reason, again, is because if God had a creator and His creator had a creator and so on endlessly backward, and the universe depended on someone or something beyond itself for its creation and functioning, there would never have been a universe at all and nobody would be here to say, think or do anything.
So, God is the only reasonable explanation for the universe, as a Ground of Being, who couldn't not exist, necessary for all other material and contingent things to even exist, without which there would be nothing.
An eternal material universe that has always been here doesn't work because unthinking matter can't come up with any natural laws and synchronizing, calibrating, coordinating, and maintaining, which are required for its own existence, and so couldn't have existed from the beginning, since it couldn't do all of those things to make itself even possible.
No matter how much you twist, turn, run and hide from God as the only logical answer to the existence of the universe, that is what He still remains to all reasonable people. Matter is contingent and so dependent on those laws and forces and interworkings, which it is incapable of doing for itself, and so needs Something above itself, which is non-contingent, to do those things for it.
The truth and logic don't stop being truth and logic because they don't fit into your "thinking" and philosophy. There are more things in Heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.
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John D. Partin
To explain also, uselessly again, to you and like-minded people here why God doesn't heal all children from cancer and solve all of the other problems in the world while we go right on in our sins and don't change anything that we are doing, until you conveniently or unavoidably "forget" again.
You require people to accept responsibility for their own actions and don't let or tell them that they can get by without any consequences from those actions, unless you are a very unreasonable and unrealistic person, but, by your double standard toward God, He shouldn't also require people to accept responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences of those actions.
God doesn't let children have cancer or people have all of their other problems because "He doesn't care", since He does care, but it is we who let children have cancer and all of these other problems because we insist on our own way, regardless of the consequences, and He isn't going to always rescue us from those consequences.
He will let us have it our way, out of respect for the free will that He gave us, but there are consequences to our having it our way. We can't reasonably push off onto God the consequences of our own decisions and ignoring and defiance of Him.
A person who doesn't instantly jump through our hoops and do tricks for us isn't said to not exist because of that and so it is a double standard and hypocrisy for us to say that "God doesn't exist" because He doesn't do that, either, especially since He has so much more responsibility than any human being does.
There are many things that people ask for or want that wouldn't be good for them at the time or ever, and God could no more give them those things than any parents who really love their children could give them whatever they ask for, if we aren't operating on a double standard again toward God.
Adults often prove themselves very childish in their thinking and actions, as when they indulge in alcohol or drug addiction, domestic violence, child abuse, promiscuous sex, racism, and many other things, and so why wouldn't God wouldn't treat them as the children that they prove themselves to be?
There have been and are answers to some prayers, as you and other people who don't keep your eyes and ears and minds tightly closed against them can see for yourselves online and in books and elsewhere, but will never see until you open your eyes and minds to them, like people who keep their eyes tightly shut in the broad daylight and say "Where is the sun?".
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Pink Clover
It's really a bummer that this forum does not allow us to remove up votes. Dang cat.
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Rev. Elizabeth
God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit can do the unmanageable with less time of the blink of an eye. I would want to see the foot myself or pictures. I can’t be a minister, asking for total healing and believing it will happen. With prayer you have power. I had serious lower back pain after being ill for 6-weeks with Covid-19. The second week of feeling all healed, I began to have some serious pain and started losing the ability to walk. I ended up with a walker and dragging my left foot. I couldn’t walk without the walker and the the right side was starting to fall suit. I prayed for total healing. I ended up in a wheelchair every time I left my home. In February 2023, near the end of the month I began to feel healing with the help of a wonderful doctor. It’s a 2 hour round trip drive for us and it’s with it. God sent me to Him. I didn’t ask for a doctor. I asked them and through this doctor, I am out of the wheelchair as of 3 weeks ago and today is the first time I drove a car in 3 1/2 years. Being on a strong opioid I wouldn’t drive. I couldn’t live with myself if I hurt anyone. I got weened off the opioid. That lasted 3 weeks. I feel great now other than my pain has intensified and it was hiding other issues. If you saw me when it all happened and see me now, I’m back in society and I can drive and I can walk faster than before. I do need to keep a cane nearby. My primary does not want me to fall. So the cane is my forever balancer and help me attempt to walk on certain terrain without falling. I trust that God will make me better than I was. With Jesus, anything is possible. With God anything is possible and with the Holy Spirit, anything is possible. I’m walking!!! 3 yrs I couldn’t walk. I’m walking. I prayed for Healing and I am receiving it. I cannot say No.
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Lord Reverend Bob, Phd.
The only miracle that I believe in is that anything exists at all.
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James Riggle-Johnson
If they want a miricle maybe they should pray to bring back all the children who were murdered in their classrooms. That would give us something to talk about. Toes... really? Lol!
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Thomas P. Davis
Just a couple of comments. 1. I do believe in miracles. 2. They can be instantaneous. God Spoke and it was done. He created the whole earth in 6 days. 3. The bible also says that the devil in the end will perform miracles to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 4.With the proliferation of cell phones and how almost everyone takes pictures of everything. I find it quite odd that with all the people present at the time, no one took any photos.
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Sharrell Ronald Taylor
Well I have always believed in miracles but I’m not sure that something like this will happen. Oh and no proof? Very doubtful
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CB Cuff
People who believe such nonsense shouldn't be allowed out in public without a leash. I can't imagine the trauma a child would experience if they were told this really happened. Wonder how this will 'marketed'.... maybe toes-on-a-rope-soap???
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Lionheart
Obviously, toes are more important than helping children stricken with cancer. He seems to have some very weird priorities 🤷🏼
Not the sort of god I would ever want to worship. He seems pretty weird if you ask me.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Oh well. Not good publicity for the FAKE HEALERS.
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Rev Mark D
Cute. Jesus did say that Thomas was correct in asking for proof. How much more correct then (to use Jesus's exact words) is someone who asks a human for proof, that claimant not being Christ.
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David Cox
Rev Mark D you need to read the scriptures more here is the scripture....... Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
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Rev Mark D
Ought to be good for at least a couple million dollars and a contract to appear on one of those cable TV shows about ghosts and mysteries and such like. And then there's the lecture circuit after that. Should be a very good (meaning profitable prospects) con.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
If you cut the toes off of a woman (female) salamander — then pray that she (the female) will grow new toes, there’s a good-chance it’ll grow new toes.
We Secular Humanist Pantheists always have our prayers answered — because we have the only provable God — who’s the same as nature.
We pray (those who do, due to their infant indoctrination) we pray for things such as sun-rises and sun-sets; and that our little doggies will enjoy their religion-less lives.
Prayers to any other God, than a God similar to the Secular Humanist Pantheist God — are akin to pissing into the wind.
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Rev Mark D
So massive publicity and with all the benefits available there too is okay, but showing the toes is a violation of privacy.
I'll admit it's a great idea, now let's just wait, it won't be long, before somebody claims, to be vastly propounded by any opportune body church or any other associated party, that their head was decapitated and regrew by prayer.
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Daniel Gray
And this is one of the reasons that people make claims about Christianity. So if you believe this then I have a very deep hole in Northern Arizona I will sell you on the cheap.
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Pamela Renee DeSalvo
Okk maybe salamanders, lizards,etc. can regrow amputated, disconnected, or ripped off appendages such as toes and Tails, but humans. Sorry, once gone, unless Surgically replaced within hours of amputation, it's gone. I'm with everyone!!! #SHOWMETHETOES Furthermore,this falsehood is a great way to scam a movie deal, talk shows, and even PUBLIC; SORRY NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY HERE; appearances, and mass media coverage. Again, there are no rights to privacy there either.
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Rev. Kev
The way I see it, if the pastor is telling the story on Facebook and claiming a miracle, that abrogates the whole right to privacy excuse. And how much of an invasion of privacy are we talking here? Just a picture of the woman with her attached foot and brand new toes. No more than a person would display wearing a pair of sandals or strutting barefoot on the beach. Additionally, a certified X-ray and medical records before and after the miracle would do a lot to substantiate the claim.
Seriously, if I was the recipient of such a healing I'd have no problem offering proof. Wouldn't that sorta be the point of the miracle? To show the power of God?
Of course, the entire thing sorta begs the questions: why won't the miracle pastor pray for deathly ill people at the local hospital? Help young children who are terminally ill? Maybe regrow some limbs of devastated military vets? A set of toes is certainly nice. But more helpful things could be done.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
This doesn't even warrant a discussion; it's obvious to anyone with a modicum of education that it's a false story, made up to financially enrich the woman, the pastor and the church. By outright lying about a false miracle the pastor knows that the publicity, visitors to their website (what? they don't have an online church? preposterous) and visitors to their church will more than offset any negative publicity (all publicity is good).
Imagine this, it's 2023 and this church, woman and accomplish pastor expect (and will not be disappointed) that some number of people will blindly believe the story. Again, miracles are what happen when ignorant people seek a supernatural explanation for a natural occurrence: too many people sadly never question the expressions 'sunrise' or 'sunset', they are still in the dark ages thinking that the sun actually revolves around the earth, thus sun rise and set.
'If you think education is expensive try ignorance'; When people go to see a movie they willingly suspend disbelief in order to enjoy the movie. Religion is like that except people are asked and expected to suspend their disbelief in perpetuity. Religion needs to be included as a Mental Disorder in the DSM. In that way the religious will be able to get the help they need and if necessary, committed for a sufficient length of time to help resolve the symptoms and allow them to return to a normal life.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Equine fecal matter. The religiously delusional will pass this around like hot biscuits at Sunday dinner.
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pjm
According to the Bible,miracles require at least two witnesses. If there is no proof, it didn't happen.
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Colleen McAllister
Where does it say that? Scripture please?
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CB Cuff
Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness that affects how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. People with schizophrenia may seem like they have lost touch with reality, which can be distressing for them and for their family and friends. Say no more.
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Nicholas J Page
Utter rubbish if there's no video evidence or the woman refuses to show her toes.It didn't happen certainly within 30 minutes.Once a limb is amputated that's it no going back The nerves, muscles,bone can NEVER grow back.Ex medic and I was bought up with My mum who worked as a nurse and matron for the elderly and my aunt and uncle were charge nurses in Ipswich hospital uk.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Nicholas J Page. This is why it is a miracle. No evidence is ever needed for miracles.
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Maximillian Martin
You're a delusional fool if you think that works
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Tiffany Moore
Heal her top of head to her feet. Amen
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Lionheart
Yep, then when he’s done healing those toes he could perhaps move on to other clients, such as children dying if cancer in hospitals.
I guess we all know that’s not going to happen…right? And the obvious reason why it won’t…….is because he doesn’t exist. 🤷🏼
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Alexander Arends
Oh please............................
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Maximillian Martin
LOOK OUT!!! She's one of those reptilian lizard people we've been hearing about!!! LOL!!!! What a joke!!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You mean God?
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Maximillian Martin
The whole story is a joke!!! It's not possible. Even your so called god can't do it.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Powdered pig matrix particles.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The preacher is saying God can do it and claims that God did. What other proof do you need? That God exists?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
More lies being told by Christians. If you want to know why young people want nothing to do with the Christian religion this is just another reason. The see this Christian minister of God as a liar and a fraud.
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Steven Ferrell
I fully believe in miracles. However I have a hard time believing this woman if she will not show it to the world.
If it was me, I would be showing the world the owner of God to do things through prayer.
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Steven Ferrell
I fully believe in miracles. However I have a hard time believing this woman if she will not show it to the world.
If it was me, I would be showing the world the owner of God to do things through prayer.
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Amber Fry
Hard to believe when no record of an amputation or the treatment of such is being presented.
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William J Lewis
I don't think she can see her toes, but in all reality who cares. Let it go.
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George Perkins Jamison
Such a precious thing as a miracle you don't have to discuss it with others you don't have to prove it to anyone it should be something private between you and God believe or not believe but the one thing you shouldn't do is use it as a scam if that be the case God will not be happy
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Traci Lynn Odle
Wouldn't regrowing her toes be a vanity issue? She doesn't need them to survive, only to look good in summer sandals. The miracle here was in her surviving the shooting in the first place. And, why would she pray for toes when there is most likely her heart and mind in need of healing after surviving the obvious abuse of her husband? The attention seeking could be acknowledged as a form of ptsd. I hope she finds peace, love and trust. That would be the true gift.
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Deborah Lynn Strafuss
The problem here is that we do not recognize what miracles are. They happen every day, we live in a miraculous world. Stop looking around for the unusual and unnatural to prove what already is and begin to believe what you are living in.
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Rev. Kev
A miracle, by definition, is something inexplicable. It defies what we know about nature and what can naturally occur. If an event is usual or natural, then it isn't a miracle in the sense of a divine act.
At that point we are left with the more (and less amazing) colloquial idea of saying something of outstanding quality or performance is a miracle. Like when we see some new invention and we call it a miracle of modern science. More of a subjective viewpoint. One person's miracle is another's "Meh".
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Humanism Clergy Linda
Absolutely not do not believe in so called miracle's
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Lidia C. Limon
I believe there is power in the name of Jesus and I have been healed many times. Praise God
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Lidia C. Limon
I believe there is power in the name of Jesus and I have been healed many times. Praise God
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Lionheart
You are obviously doing better than innocent children dying of cancer in children’s hospitals. Perhaps you can put a kind word in for them next time you chat with your god to see if he will help them out. Clearly he favors you more than them. 🤷🏼
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Lidia C. Limon
I believe there is power in the name of Jesus and I have been healed many times. Praise God
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Lionheart
How did you demonstrably prove that the god you believe in healed you?
Perhaps you could also direct him, just in case he doesn’t know, to children’s hospitals where they are dying of cancer.
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John D. Partin
You are still not remembering the explanation for God's not healing all children from cancer, as long as we continue on in our sins that keep bringing that cancer on them, and cleaning up after us forever and fighting that losing battle that has been told to you hundreds of times.
God's not jumping through your hoops and doing tricks for you doesn't make Him non-existent, anymore than the rest of the people in the world not doing that make them non-existent. Get some treatment for your problems very soon.
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Rev. Kev
John, I fully agree that people should take responsibility for their own actions. But I think the problem people see with (for example) young children getting some debilitating or fatal disease from birth or some very early age is they are paying for something they didn't do. You know. BEFORE they had any chance to go out there and work up a load of sins. Same with innocent children born with deformities.
You can say, "That's because of all the sinners in the world." But that's not personal accountability then, is it? That's making innocent people pay the price for what others did. It would be like someone dragging an innocent man out of his house and to a torture chamber to make him pay for what some total stranger did in the next county.
When many people bring up the issue of helping the helpless, it's because of our innate sense of justice. Something some Christians would say was written on our hearts by God. How can a loving father...a father who would not give a stone to a person if they asked for bread.....a god of mercy and compassion....hurt the innocent for no cause? How is that caring?
You say prayers are answered. OK. But people who have actually spent years studying the stories of "miraculous" healings from Lourdes to Benny Hinn found that the number of healings fall well within the error range for things like normal remission to misdiagnosis of a disease (which happens). People who were told they were healed have given up their medications, only to suffer a worse ailment or die. Yep. They had SO much faith in God, they gave up their doctor's care and died.
I think living with the reality that bad things can happen to anyone, and learn ways to help those people and mitigate their suffering, is far better than holding out the promise of some miracle healing. Because if that healing never comes, the next step is trying to explain it away by blaming them. Which only makes them feel way worse. "God really cares about you. But you're just too bad of a person to merit a healing. Sucks to be you." Or blaming the parents. "God would help you but your folks were fornicators and liars. So God's punishing you. You deserve it." It really doesn't make God look very good.
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Lionheart
Excellent reply, Kev, but unfortunately, John is in way too deep with his indoctrination. This will be evidenced by a lengthy reply from him at sometime to you, and possibly me, to try and validate his warped belief system. Few, if any, agree with him. In the meantime, children will die of cancer, but his god will help people grow toes. 🤭
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Rev. Kev
Apparently toes are very important. 🤣
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John D. Partin
Your saying that people should only pay for their own personal sins is unrealistic and unreasonable because the past affects people today, though that wasn't their personal choice. Racism against black people is still adversely affecting white people today because of resentment and unforgiveness against that by black people, who are letting the past control them, too, instead of their exercising personal responsibility and choice.
Our past from Adam and Eve's time and everything between then and today is still affecting us, too, and not just our personal choice. If faults happen in manufacturing machinery or changes in design specifications or blueprints for the worse are made, that results in defective cars and machines and buildings being turned out after that.
Our first parents (Adam and Eve or whoever) made a wrong choice of their own wills over God's will and we have been paying for their wrong choice ever since. We can't or shouldn't scapegoat God for our own choices and actions or those of our ancestors. We can't only have the good things from our sins and none of the bad things, such as children's getting cancer and all of the other problems in the world. We bring cancer on children and all of the other problems on people by our own sins and they are brought on us all by original sin.
Your and other people's seeing "no efficacy in prayers" is due to your looking at them through worldly and unbelieving eyes, instead of through the eyes of faith, and your minds' being blinded by the god of this world (Satan), who doesn't want you to see any power in prayers, and you will never see any power in them until that veil is lifted off your eyes and minds.
Jesus Christ himself couldn't heal some people in towns because of their little faith, but could heal people who had faith in him. "By your faith, let it be done unto you". "Seek and you will find".... whatever it is that you are seeking. If that is that "there is no efficacy in prayers", that is what you will find, but if it is that there is power in prayers, that is what you will find. It's all in the attitude and outlook and hope, the same as hardened racists and criminals and members of the Flat Earth Society only see more "justification" for their "thinking" in everything that they see and hear, while people who follow love in Christ see more justification for that in what they see and hear.
Some things that are good at one time wouldn't be good at other times. Parents who love their children don't just let them have cake and ice cream all the time and make themselves sick or whatever else that they want that wouldn't be good for them, but only what is really good for them. Our loving Father can't let "adult' children, as we prove ourselves to be by our choices and desires, have whatever we want, but only what is really good for us, even though we don't like or understand it.
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Rev. Kev
John, you wrote: "We can't or shouldn't scapegoat God for our own choices and actions or those of our ancestors."
No one is blaming God for their own choices here. Nor the actions of others. You're focusing on the wrong thing.
The problem is your own admission that God brings misery upon even the very innocent young for things they are not responsible for, and basically refuses to do anything about it. No one could justify that or find any good in that if not for the special pleading given to God. "Sure. It's horrific if you or I do it. But it's different because God."
You also wrote: "Parents who love their children don't just let them have cake and ice cream all the time and make themselves sick or whatever else that they want that wouldn't be good for them, but only what is really good for them"
Again you miss the point. No one is asking for cake and ice cream. To use your analogy, we're asking why these so-called "loving parents" are feeding their infants sand and thumb tacks for simply being innocent babies who have done no wrong, and try to justify it by blaming totally unrelated people who supposedly did something centuries ago. because that is what you are attempting to justify.
And trying to use Adam and Eve as an excuse is just as horrendous. Because the literal telling of that tale just makes God cruel and a bit sadistic. Two people with pretty much zero life experience and no concept of good or evil (because they hadn't taken a bite of the fruit to give them knowledge of it) do one thing wrong. And not only does God punish them, but literally everyone after that even though He doesn't need to do it. For something no one else did. And is -- to be blunt - a fault of the designer and maker of the two people. So He's not only cruel but can't be responsible enough to take the blame for His own shoddy workmanship.
It's not that I don't understand what you are trying to say. It's just that I'm explaining why what you say is indefensible.
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John D. Partin
You are, as people have always done, "justifying" yourself and wrong human putting of our wills above the will of God, and so not admitting that our doing that is wrong and, instead, saying that it "must be God who is cruel and not responsible enough to take the blame for his own shoddy workmanship" because He wants them to choose to trust and obey Him, instead of mistrust and disobey Him and listen to their enemy and do what he is telling them to do.
You will always "justify" yourselves and blame God for not letting you do whatever you want to do and make you robots, so that you couldn't do anything wrong, though you don't want Him interfering with you or "controlling" you the rest of the time, inconsistently and contradictorily.
Despite your saying that you "understand" what I'm saying, you prove that you actually don't understand it, like someone who is arguing with a STOP sign that it "actually says GO" because if you actually understood what I'm saying, you would agree with the logic and common sense that God didn't want robots and so couldn't have made us as robots and wanted us to choose to do what is good, as He is telling us to do, and have this freedom that you and so many others are clamoring for all of the time!
Self-justification has always screwed up the world and is still doing it today, as demonstrated by the Nazis, Communists, serial killers, child molesters, genocidal dictators and societies, pro-abortionists who are just other genocide advocates, and all other people who put their own wills above the will of God.
We are talking two different languages, though it is seemingly all English, because your self-justification and putting your own will above the will of God will never allow you to understand or agree due to understanding that God's will must always come before our wills, which you would do if you actually understood, instead of calling it "indefensible".
We are talking about cake and ice cream choices for so-called "adults" because our choices are the "adult" equivalent of cake and ice cream. Our first parents made the choice for us of putting our wills above the will of God, as you and everyone else prove by still doing that, which makes it not just a choice of those people thousands of millions of years ago, but our choice today, which we are paying for due to ourselves, which their choice back then predisposed and conditioned us to making.
You would agree with that, if you actually understood it. God wanted to keep us innocent in the Garden of Eden or wherever our origin was, but we chose against innocence and so brought upon ourselves all the corruption and misery that that choice inevitably led to.
God is saying to all of us individually and to man collectively "Alright, you can have it your way, but that comes with all of the problems that go along with your way, or you can have it my way and not have all of those problems, but you can't have it both ways and indulge in all the sins that you want to your hearts'content without any consequences from all of that, which people like you keep "thinking" should happen and that we should live in a consequence free universe, though that is unrealistic and never going to happen!!
You won't understand and agree from understanding with this post, either, because of our speaking two different languages, but I'm only required to tell you the truth and am not responsible for your choosing to reject it again, as usual, which is all on you.
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Rev. Kev
John, that's quite an egotistical position you have there. "If you understood you would agree with me."
You can't consider that maybe someone can fully understand your position and still not agree with you? You must think yourself infallible. Cannot possibly be wrong. Even your chosen Biblical interpretations are infallible. You're better than the Pope.
Well. I tried to have a dialogue but that's impossible for someone who can't even consider a different viewpoint may have merit. Close-minded people can only deal in monologues.
Since we have zero to discuss, I guess I'll end this here and remind myself to just let you ramble away on your own.
Lionheart had you accurately pegged.
Have A Nice Day! 😊
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John D. Partin
No more "egotistical" or "infallible" than saying that a STOP sign and God and everything else are what they are and not just whatever you want them to be or say they are, which is the real egotism. I'm going to ignore your posts as well and let you ramble on, as long as you are under the dictatorship of relativism, since that renders communication impossible and is a waste of my time. Chickenheart doesn't even have himself accurately pegged and so, of course, can't figure anyone else out.
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Rev. Kev
Just a small postscript. Forgot to mention that you must also see yourself as omniscient in that you have judged the hearts of people you don't know, as well as declaring what they think or intend.
A wiser person might actually ponder those things and take a hard look in the mirror.
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John D. Partin
"By their fruits, you will know them". You might try taking a good hard look in the mirror yourself when you can't understand how there can be racists, Nazis, serial killers, and other hateful people in the world who are stuck in self-justification, the same as you, if you ever wise up.
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John D. Partin
I write this for those, if any here, who aren't brainwashed by the dictatorship of relativism, since "Rev" Kev and Chickenheart are hopeless cases and lost causes.
Endless "dialogue" and debating and "different truths for everyone" are just not even trying to hide it mealy-mouthed equivocation and saying that there is no such thing as truth. When everyone has a different truth for himself or herself, there is no truth, which requires a standard and there to be non-truth to distinguish it from that.
And people don't even apply this "my truth and your truth" nonsense to simple measurements of distance, weight, time, amounts or anything else, so that everyone could mean something different than other people mean by those terms and understanding and communication would be impossible. Even they could see how ridiculous and how much of a Tower of Babel that would be!!
But these same people can't see how ridiculous and how much of a Tower of Babel it is for them to say that there is no truth or morality, which is far more important than these other measurements, other than just whatever anyone comes up with for himself or herself!!
When man is put in charge of determining his own "morality" and "truth", to suit himself, that is the fox being put in charge of the hen house because we can't be trusted with that job, since our self-interest and self-centeredness don't allow us to do that correctly. We need a higher Power to determine those things rightly, which doesn't mean just the "God" in the Bible that people who wrote it put their words into, either.
There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. The only right way to be about evident truth is "closed minded" because, otherwise, we would also have to say that 2+2=7, not 4 or whatever else it suited us to say that it is, and give similar wrong answers for everything else.
What applies to mathematical truth and all other truths applies to spiritual and moral truth, too, and not just our making up our own answers.
Jesus sent us into the world to make disciples of all nations, and not to "dialogue" and debate" with them and not carry out the Great Commission. Not all other beliefs deserve respect, but only to be corrected. Tolerance can be taken to ridiculous extremes, too.
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Rev. Kev
John, thanks for mentioning me as "hopeless and a lost cause".
I guess your particular beliefs and interpretations are The Truth, right? Agree with you or be wrong? Any other church or denomination or trained scholar who doesn't fit your, personal choice of beliefs is automatically wrong? Theirs are automatically made up but yours aren't?
Which means you see yourself as the infallible arbiter of spiritual truth.
That's quite a heavy crown you put on your own head.
The reason there is no such thing as varying truths in maths, measurements, weights, etc. is because those are based on accepted standards that can be observed and repeated. We learn what is true (that which conforms to reality) by observing and measuring reality. We use multiple observations from many different sources to overcome personal error and bias.
The problem with spiritual "truths" -- a word that has a philosophical use in this case and not the same as factual -- is that no one can apply the same method of observation, measurement and verification that we can with the real world. Philosophical/spiritual truth is not the same as factual truth. To interchange them is a logical fallacy called equivocation.
In other words, you cannot prove your beliefs are true.
You can believe they are true. You can declare they are true. But you cannot actually demonstrate it for a verifiable fact.
Which is why so many religions exist, and so many sects, schools, or denominations of each religion exists. No one can show which one is the truthiest truth with certainty.
Here I'll point out that you can show me wrong and firmly put me in my place by proving your beliefs are in alignment with reality. Enlighten us all here with verifiable, substantive evidence to support your beliefs. Do something really constructive instead of demeaning others and elevating yourself above most of Mankind.
If you can't then I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing me.
Not that such a fact will stop you from doing it, anyway, I fear.
From my experience, the more dogmatic the believer, the more haughty and abrasive -- even angry -- I have noticed them to be. Interesting correlation from a religion that's supposed to teach humility, compassion, love, and fellowship.
Have a wonderful weekend! 😊
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Rev. Kev
P.S. I was going to let this ramble slide on by but I figured it was the perfect opportunity to let you prove yourself.
Obviously, if you don't, or come up with some flaccid excuse not to do so, that will be all anyone needs to know. And I fully expect that's what will happen.
You'll simply post another long ramble trying to show why you can't prove what you declare to be factual and expect people to simply accept on your say-so. Or you'll engage in some meaningless attack. Or just ignore the whole thing as if it never happened.
But you won't prove a thing about your declared beliefs.
After that, I can sit back and get a good chuckle over your predictably continued rambles about how you have the Truthiest Truth and people should listen to your Words of Divine Wisdom. You know....because you say so. 🤣🤣
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John D. Partin
Yet another hysterical outburst from you, after saying to me before that we had "zero to discuss" and that you were done talking with me and would "let me ramble on". You don't even have yourself figured out or know what is wrong with your own "thinking" and are inconsistent and contradict yourself, and so couldn't possibly know what is wrong with my or anyone else's thinking.
There is no proving anything to anyone who won't accept anything as proof, that doesn't fit into your preconceived views. That is why you don't see any proof of any of my statements to you that aren't just because I say so or from me, but from God. And you won't ever see any proof of them until you let God raise your mind up to where you can see it and out of the pit of your own "thinking".
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Rev. Kev
Hiya John,
You wrote: "Yet another hysterical outburst from you, after saying to me before that we had 'zero to discuss' and that you were done talking with me and would 'let me ramble on'.
Which I addressed in my previous post. The very first sentence. So, yeah, I have myself figured out.
Then you wrote: "There is no proving anything to anyone who won't accept anything as proof, that doesn't fit into your preconceived views. That is why you don't see any proof of any of my statements"
That's both an unsupported assumption on your part and a falsehood. Isn't lying about people a sin in your faith??
I accept proof as proof. If it supports an opposing position then I will happily change mine. If it doesn't, the claim is rejected. That's how rational people think.
Just to be blunt, so far you have offered zero proof in any of your statements at any time. Proof involves objective, verifiable evidence that leads solely and necessarily to the stated proposition.
Nothing you have written comes close to that.
Annnnnd there it was. You chose for the Really Bad Excuse option.
The second sentence in my previous post.
Thus, you have failed to prove your claims. You have zero ground to criticize me.(That doesn't stop you from doing it in what is clearly a very un-Christlike attitude you display..it's just shown to be baseless).
Your claims are dismissed.
I'm not even going to schlog through your second post. TL;DR.
Can't say I didn't give you a fair chance.
See ya! 🖐
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John D. Partin
Your saying that you "have yourself figured out" (according to your delusions about yourself) and actually having done so are two very different things. All irrational people, such as yourself, still say you are "rational", and so, of course, you falsely make that claim, too, which is disproved by your posts.
So, your further saying that I have "offered zero proof in any of my statements at any time" is just more evidence of your delusions. Quite obviously, to everyone here except you, since you are deluded about yourself and haven't figured yourself out, despite your denials, you couldn't have figured out anything about my statements correctly, either.
Your "dismissing my claims" and saying they are "baseless" and I "haven't written anything close to evidence" are just more evidence of your delusions for the prosecution against you. Keep that evidence against you coming!! It's delightful to read!!
It's quite understandable why you don't want to answer the points in my second post because you aren't able to actually answer them and would be clearly exposed to everyone here and yourself as irrational. So, of course, you don't want to do that.
You are really a waste of my time. Go play your games with yourself and come back when you are ever able to have a serious conversation and answer my points, and not run and hide, as you are doing now, which will be never!!
Telling people the truth about themselves, as I have told you the truth about yourself is very clearly Christian and Christlike, since Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees the truth about themselves.
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John D. Partin
Your experience, as with everything else about your "thinking", is defective and falls far short of reality, since you believe that the more dogmatic someone is, the more haughty, abrasive, and even angry, instead of teaching humility, compassion, love, and fellowship he or she is or has to be.
You base that on only looking at the worst examples of those who merely call themselves "Christian", but don't actually follow Christ's teachings, instead of those who do. St. Francis of Assisi and many other Saints were also dogmatic and strong believers in Catholic Church teachings and were the most humble, compassionate, loving, and fellowshipping and brotherly and sisterly people to all others imaginable.
You can't focus only on the worst examples in any group of people and come up with anything other than erroneous conclusions about them. If you were doing that about black people or white people or Jews or Asians or Polish people or any other racial or ethnic group, your remarks would be clearly seen as racist and bigoted, but you can indulge in such "thinking" about Christians as much as you like and nothing is ever said against it, especially among your ilk, since that is acceptable bigotry today.
You might as well say that obnoxious, haughty, abrasive, unpleasant, and rotten-hearted scientists are made so by their science, while ignoring those scientists not so afflicted, as say that the worst examples of "Christians" were made so by their Christianity, which they didn't even follow, while ignoring the best examples of Christians. The Saints prove that deep acceptance of dogma doesn't make those who accept it terrible people.
Loving people has never meant approving of everything that they do and telling them that "nothing they do is sin", but loving people means telling them the truth and warning them against sins, as the loving Saints did for other people.
Terrible people have only themselves to blame for being such and their not following Christ's teachings, which would bring them out of all that in time, as an encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus brought Saul out of being a murderer of Christians and transformed him into Saint Paul, and as Mafia hitmen and other murderers and terrible people were brought out of all that by surrendering their hearts to Christ and following His teachings.
Measurements of weight and distance aren't based on observation of reality because there are no miles, yards, feet, inches, pounds, ounces or gallons in nature, since those are only arbitrary and human concepts for our benefit. As there being a metric system, besides our system, and whatever other measurements existed before those and will exist after those prove.
So, your and other people's accepting those systems of measurement is just your accepting one set of arbitrarily made up measurements, while not accepting the "entirely humanly made up" (according to you) moral and spiritual standards of Christianity, and operating on a double standard.
These standards that I'm telling you aren't things that I have just made up or coming from me because if I were making things up to suit myself, as you are making things up to suit yourself, I would be saying and "thinking" the same things that you are. That isn't my making myself the "infallible arbiter of spiritual truth", but only submitting to the spiritual truth that has already been arbitrated by God and delivered to man.
Man's or individual men and women not following that truth, even in the Church, is all on them, just as Jesus knew that the Pharisees wouldn't listen to him and change their minds, hearts, and lives, but they wouldn't be able to say that they were never told and we won't be able to say that we weren't told the truth and will have only ourselves to blame for our not following it.
There has to be a standard for Truth and Morality or else there can't be any truth or morality at all, beyond just whatever everyone comes up with for himself or herself, which is all the confusion that we see in the world today, and Satan's appearing as an "angel of light" to confuse and mislead us.
There is all of the disagreement and confusion in religion because many people still want to have things their own way and make "God" after their own image, as the Pharisees did and many others have, instead of our conforming ourselves to God's image.
The proof of God's existence that you ask for is that the unthinking universe can't do anything for itself and so needs Something above it doing those things for it. Your not accepting that evidence and ignoring it because it doesn't fit into your preconceived views are all on you. If the universe really works the way that you say that it does and mindless things are doing anything for themselves, just show me an example of that with a self-driving car. What you can't even get a car to do here on Earth, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing.
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Christopher Michael Norton-Beavers
Yeah... Unless she can show proof I'm calling this a nice big sack of BS!
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Karsten S. A. Johansson
The guy also said that they prayed a new kidney for someone who had donated one of theirs, and it regrew. There needs to be some medical proof of this, which would be easy for the supposed miracle recipient to prove. He's on record as having donated a kidney. Does he actually have 2 again?
Probably not.
These charlatans are spoken of in the Bible. Their punishment will be severe.
Well, I'm sure the "miracle" has helped out with attendance, not to mention the collection plate. Bluntly, I think P. T. Barnum said it best : "There's a sucker born every minute."
Yes, yes, yes! Reputedly he also said (and if he didn't, he should have) "Never give a sucker an even break." :)
“…or smarten up a chump.” If all of it is truth, then, it would prove beyond a doubt that the Great God Chubaluba, of the Amazonian Feetagoneda tribe, has heard the prayers and blessed her little foot. Unless, just maybe, this congregation prayed to the wrong god, in which case this is a sham and a scam.