Immigration issues and border policies have long been contentious issues in politics, but they are also creating a significant divide in the Christian community.
Many Christian houses of worship have embraced a "love thy neighbor" stance, arguing for benevolent treatment of immigrants seeking a better life. Some churches have even begun harboring illegal immigrants to prevent them from being deported.
However, there is a distinct sub-group of Christians who have taken the opposite position, throwing their support behind more stringent border policies that limit immigration to the U.S. Cracking down on immigration is not only in the best interest of the country, they argue, but it's also in complete accordance with biblical teachings.
**Pope Francis and "Compassionate Christianity"
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Time and time again, Pope Francis has been a champion for immigration rights. He advocates for relaxing immigration policies and moving in the direction of an "open border" approach. Just last week, in fact, the pontiff reaffirmed the Church's commitment to protecting immigrants.
Francis' views reflect a compassion-minded Christianity, an ideology shared by many within the faith that focuses on promoting goodwill and kindness -- no strings attached. Indeed, this overarching theme of benevolence toward foreigners is present throughout scripture. To give just two examples:
Exodus 23:9: "You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Leviticus 19:34: "You will regard the stranger who resides with you as the native-born among you."
Seems pretty clear cut, right? Well, not exactly.
"The Bible Supports Stronger Borders"
By its very nature, the Bible is interpreted differently by different people. In sharp contrast to the papal position, there are those Christians who insist the "compassionate" view is both naïve and misguided. Not only do they disagree with the concept of open borders on political grounds, but these folks argue the Bible actually supports stronger borders.
To understand this point of view, let's examine a few passages:
Matthew 5:42: Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Deuteronomy 15:11: "For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land."
Luke 10:25-37: "_You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."_
On face value, these verses seem to advocate kindness and compassion toward everyone. Not necessarily, say opponents of immigration. First of all, they point out that such passages use the word "you" a direct personal appeal to the individual. Thus, they should not be taken as policy recommendations for the government. Rather, they are instructions for how one should conduct themselves on a personal level.
Secondly, such verses emphasize proximity. "In your land," "your neighbor," etc. Proponents of tougher immigration laws argue these verses don't refer to people living in other countries oceans away, just those nearby. So while the Bible does call for generosity toward the needy, they believe we should focus on helping those already in the country before trying to solve the world's problems.
Which View is More Compelling?
Where do you stand? Does following the teachings of the Bible mean helping others no matter what, or would Jesus approve of deportations and turning people away at the border?
59 comments
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Larry Copeland
We are Christians we are followers of the teachings of Jesus not Moses. Jesus said Obey the current Law not Jewish Law that's what he died for to put his Law into effect.
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Brother John
Make it clear that "we" does not include some people posting here, Larry. I'd hate to see an innocent truth seeker end up here and think we all believe as you do.
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inga
lol. you know it.
and the bible.. should be referred to as the bibleS, as there is more than one version, ie the mormons, the jehovahs witnesses, the catholics, gideons.. never mind the numerous " corrections".. the bible.. has many faces.
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Kirk
I'm for tighter borders because my religious beliefs cannot be forced on other people. I.E. forcing American tax payers that do not like my charity choices to pay for them. At the same time, "open borders" is a lovely idea, but it is based on a socialist concept which completely ignores basic human nature just like all other socialist/communist concepts. It removes the choice of paying for expenses of illegals who knowingly chose to come here illegally rather than legally. Welfare is a completely different subject as it should apply only to citizens of this country and therefore choice is removed in regard to tax money. Borders are eliminated when states join and become one state, so we'll have "open borders" when Mexico and Canada accept our Constitution and our President as their own and we allow them to do that. Until then, tighten the border to help prevent illegal activity since nobody has the right to give taxpayer money to non-citizen folks that broke our laws.
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Brother John
Rest easy, Kirk. It's unlikely that many Canadians would want an open border with the U.S., particularly if it required us to accept your President as our own. I totally agree with tightening the borders. We're hoping for a wall.... a huge, high and impassable wall, but sadly Mexico is first on the list.
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Wen
Now THAT is funny
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Kirk
Brother John, I just returned from Canada where I saw more problems than I see in my home town in the US. Now I know why I see so many Canadian and Mexican license plates here.
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Bill
Considering that socialist GOD less nut job you have in Canada that is pretty funny. You don't even have free speech in your decaying land. lol
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David Rediger
No Larry, Jesus suffered on the cross for the fulfillment of the law (that is the Law of Moses that is stated in the Torah) and the prophets. Jesus was and still is a Jew and he came here to save the Jews first then the Gentiles. Jesus also said to forgive not just 7 times but 7 times 70. The entire Bible (from Genesis to Revelation) speaks of peace and love for they neighbor. Even your enemy you are to show mercy and kindness.
Our government has guaranteed freedom of religion with the 1st Amendment. But our nation is also governed by laws. Laws to protect its citizens. It has laws and policies that govern and direct who can enter this country and who can apply for citizenship. There is a reason they are called illegal immigrants. They are breaking our laws, and those that harbor them are also committing a crime. In a free democracy it is up to our elected representatives to make or abolish laws. It is our duty as citizens to follow all laws, but if you disagree with a law you have the right and responsibility to lobby for a change in the law you disagree with.
I do not believe that most people are xenophobic, just cautious. They do not want criminals or terrorist to disrupt our domestic tranquility.
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Brother John
Maybe you're referring to a sanitized version of the Bible, David. How could anyone possibly purport that "The entire Bible (from Genesis to Revelation) speaks of peace and love for they neighbor. Even your enemy you are to show mercy and kindness"?
The references on this site are linked to the appropriate biblical passages for confirmation.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
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JOHN MAHER
DAVID REDGER, the LAWS and the LAWMONGERS ONLY WORRY ABOUT THEMSELVEs and MORE THEIR OFF SHORE BANK ACCOUNTs, DUMP the tRUMP !!!
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Wen
Time to tell a truth. Farmers who pay low wages and provide abismal working conditions recruit and hire "illegals" and then we have the audacity to blame them for being here. Please. Why don't we talk about greed?
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John Owens
Is it not greed that motivates them to come here?
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Wen
John! Finally! The truth!
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Wen
Obviously desparation, poverty and a desire to do better add up to greed in your mind?
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John Owens
Yes. The same motivation.
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Wen
Your definition of greed paints with a very large brush.
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Pastor Pete
So, total separation of church and state, as outlined in the constitution, no religion in government, no religion in school, since this is plainly a matter for the individual conscience. Excellent.
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diggeriraq
I do not care what religion a person is nor do I believe in any religion. There are way TOO MANY religions out there. Religion should be kept out of schools and government PERIOD. Keep religion in the churches and the home. The bible has been rewritten and translated and reworded SO MANY times.
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JOHN MAHER
DITTO ! that MAKEs TWO of US, I HOPE, N O, I KNOW THERE ARE MORE, STAND DOWN and SPEAK OUT, GOD is in YOUR MIND N O T a BOOK........................
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inga
but for entertainment sake.. lets say..whos bibles will they use.. the jehovahs witnesses// maybe the mormans. the amish ?? lets see them settle that one.. lol.
i agree. the school is no place for the bible(s) unless through private schooling so the parents and children know what they are signing up for. as per public school. no. it SHOULD be neutral.
i went to a private school. not catholic. and it was good.
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diggeriraq
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diggeriraq
ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL !!!!!!!!! It is the job of any sheriff or local law enforcement officer to also enforce federal immigration law also , not just local and state laws. IT IS THE LAW. You must have the PROPER LEGAL paperwork to be in this country LEGALLY !! A person HAS TO HAVE LEGAL ID and PROPER PAPERWORK to travel to any other country. When I went overseas the first time in 2005 , I had to carry at ALL TIMES my VALID passport & Visa (if needed in that country and just about all did ) and Travel papers. On my first trip going to Iraq in 2005 , I was in a Hotel in Sharjah outside Dubai and was stopped by 2 Sharjah Police Officers ( luckily for me they spoke English ). They questioned me and walked me back to the hotel to get my passport and papers. They told me that I had shown them respect and answered their questions politely so they let me go. One of them told me to NEVER forget my papers again. Otherwise I would have been in Sharjah or Dubai Jail for at least 6 months. No matter what the U.S. Embassy could say or do about it. There should NOT be ANY sanctuary cities or policies that allow sanctuary to ANYONE breaking the law ANYWHERE !!!! And neither should any church or religious place nor preacher , pope or anyone give sanctuary to ANYONE breaking the LAWS of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. The LAW IS THE LAW !!! Either ABIDE by the law or go back where you came from !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is illegal under federal law to knowingly hire or employ illegal aliens. 8 U.S. Code § 1324a,,,,,, BUT yet they do anyway
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inga
i used to teach english as a second language, for women, in our local college. aside from the obvious, english is important for immigrants so they can read , in no particular order:
-the ingredients on the groceries pkgs they purchase, in case of allergies or preference. -read up on things such as ticks or poison ivy, or the likes of.. things they may not have in their countries.. and what to do, and when to seek medical attention. and be able to read the phone book to be able to read the words: :poison control board. -immigrants need to be able to read to understand and pass the drivers licences and so learn the rules that vary from state to state and/or province to province.. ie we have right turns on red lights here, but not so in quebec. -learning the laws of the employment they seek, and or schooling to develop specialized skills. -and how to protect themselves against discrimination or harassment, and what the protocol is.
this AFTER they have been checked to be sure they are not "wanted" in their own countries for what ever reason, as well as health screening so as not to introduce health risks to those helping them by accepting them. [some] immigrants need medical attention first.
in canada, immigrants need a host family who also agrees to a set of terms, as well as three separate house holds who are also willing to sign to show support to the immigrant family.. and the immigrant family is also in connection with three immigrants families for their support.
some churches here have sponsored the recent flux in immigrants and then have been "caught of guard" when the immigrants have not attended their church. the churches goers have been faced with the question then .. did they, the church do it for themselves, or for the immigrants. that thought was met with mixed reviews. some church goers have developed a relationship with immigrants outside the church;. others have changed their opinions on supporting the immigrants through the church.
note: there are several offerings by the goers.. donations are made in envelopes.. one envelope would be to support the church and its expenses.. ie hydro, minister costs, maintenance, upgrades. another may be to africa and missionaries.. another for good will to someone hard done by, say a house fire in the community. another for the immigrants. etc pending on the weeks suggestions. and the church goers are free to give or not give to one or all or none. pending on their financial positions and beliefs.
though the church has a title of XXX, there are still mixed opinions on the PEOPLE in the church, who try to do their best. some see it best to give a fish, some see it best to teach to fish.. some dont like fish at all.. lol. to many bones.
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biblical scholar
TRUE CHRISTIANS know we must build the wall to keep out all infidiels and illegals. READ THE BIBLE, AMERICA FIRST!
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Brother John
Good point, Bernard. Trumperonomy 3:12 "And you shall build a yuge, Great Wall to protect your mind, which I have given you, from the evils of rational thought and common sense ("plus those damn infidels and illegals". Added in a subsequent "translation")
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Kirk
Brother John, why don't you worry about Canada and fix your own problems rather than worry about America and our President Trump!
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diggeriraq
There should NOT be ANY sanctuary cities or policies that allow sanctuary to ANYONE breaking the law ANYWHERE !!!! And neither should any church or religious place nor preacher , pope or anyone give sanctuary to ANYONE breaking the LAWS of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. The LAW IS THE LAW !!! Either ABIDE by the law or go back where you came from !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ali Baba
If the law is the law we would still be bowing to the King/Queen of England. By the way, are you native American? Just saying.
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inga
my biologcal canadian parents ditched me.. my european immigrant folks adopted me on and raised me. i am good with that. and greatful for. thank god for the immigrants.
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JOHN MAHER
the COMMENTs on this SUBJECT AGAINST any OTHER PERSONs are DEPLORIBLE and IGNORANT, LOOK in the MIRROR PEOPLE................
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Lea Weisenbach
I'm all for human rights..But not at the expense of human life. This is why we have laws. Religion has always been a problem ..Its just someone's idea. I really don't care what anyone wants to believe in. I just wish they would not push it on me but start living it.
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Rob
I have been struggling with this issue, these issues, for some time. Ever since the Pope stated that if you follow the beliefs of anti-immigration, etc., you are not a Christian. And the Pope cited Matthew 25:31-46, The Sheeps and the Goats.
But I understand the difference between "personal" religious beliefs and governmental functions.
The issues that I am facing however include certain, as I see them, dichotomies by the same people that state that tougher border restrictions, bans on Muslims, etc., are consistent with the Bible. I am not sure how they then justify other governmental functions:
Abortion - on the one hand, many people who favor tougher immigration policies are also Pro-Lifers. Many Christian groups use their political clout to try to thwart the Pro-Choice movement through laws, judicial appointments, etc. These approaches are inoppiste to their beliefs that government should not superimpose religion over governmental function.
Welfare - should we remove all welfare from government?
Social Security - Same question. Does not my contributions today, force me to help others? Those already collecting? Should this be a governmental function?
Health care?
Housing?
Education?
Farm Subsidies?
Corporate subsidies?
And so much more.
Separation of church and state issues abound. If we truly have separation of church and state, why are churches not taxed equally as other organizations - think real estate taxes.
All of the references to Christianity throughout our history: "In God we Trust"? "One nation, Under God,.."?
Complicated issues with no definitive answers.
But one thing for sure: issues that divide us. Brother against brother.
And I know Jesus Christ did not teach us to hate one another.
We have recently seen violence because of our great divisions in society. I fear that such violence will be ours until we all conclude that men and women are men and women, regardless of their faith, their countries of origin, the color of their skin, their ethnicity, etc.
From Jesus Christ to John Lennon.
A Brotherhood of Man.
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Pastor Jim
What would Jesus do? What did Peter do? There is a wall around the Vatican , armed guards, one of the largest arsenals in the compound. Are there only "Pearly Gates" in Heaven? Is that not the greatest and final Vetting program? The nonsense of protecting Gods people is getting ridiculous .
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ralph
The Church of Ralph: The Bible references are all wonderful stories and recordings of ancient histories intended to teach and inspire US to live better lives. We have studied and studied, discussed and discussed, argued and argued, debated and debated, stumbled over minor issues and developed major ones, yet WHEN we would start LIVING the Life that we have been given all of this would go away. ALL OF IT .
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inga
some people come to church at different times and phases of their life. some are raised in the church. some stay in the church, while others leave some leave and come back. some dont go to church until later in life.. some find god in the step programme of AA some find it in jail, which would suggest they were not young offenders, but older. some are children from the above just starting. all ages, all different years of "seniority".
the bible is the tool box. and yes,, having the tool box does not make one a carpenter. but people are in different phases. some are still apprenticing. while others are teaching, and still others are practicing ..on sundays and mondays and tuesdays and
hence the church keeps going, as it is old, and new.
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inga
i need to correct what i call a church. i mean to say a place of worshiip.. be it a mosque or a kingdom hall or what ever terms are used. church is like a blanket term for me, not to offend. open to correction on that one, or apologize if offended or assumed.
still learning the politically neutral and/or correct terms..
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Scott Lenz
As Einstein said"Nations are the measles of mankind" reflect upon that
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Wen
And get vacinated!
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Brother John
As the other 8 million+ species on the earth would say, if they could... "Homo sapiens are a plaque upon the planet. Deliver us from their evil and ignorance."
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Brother John
... "a plague', not the nasty stuff on teeth
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Bill Fox
Romans 13:1-7New International Version (NIV) Submission to Governing Authorities 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Romans 13:9-10New International Version (NIV) 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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Brother John
You're not quoting the real 10 Commandments, Bill, a common mistake for many Christians. Read Exodus 34. Verse 28 confirms that these are the actual 10. They're a little bizarre, but in keeping with much of the OT.
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inga
exactly !! if people would just read the book they would understand. the athiest could just read it so they could understand their audiences.. like we can read on athiest so we can understand their perspectives.
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Honest Abe
Many so-called Christians have not really entirely read at least one version of the New and Old testaments. Please, if you proport to be Christian, then please do so. All the answers are within. Don't worry, there is enough smiting and killing within to make it an interesting read. But you will also see some very interesting moral lessons, and these are really the crux of the content.
It even shows how to deal with a people bent on the subjugation of other peaceful people. Even the peaceful people did not have the cahonas to finish the job properly while being commanded to do so by god himself. (Which is why they are still having problems with these ones who want subjugation from others)
Learn from history, so that mistakes will not be repeated.
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Brother John
Are you referring to Numbers 31, HA, where Moses loses it because the job wasn't finished properly? Maybe his minions didn't believe Moses was actually on a first name basis with the Lord.
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Elizabeth Bailey
Matthew 7:6 'Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.' and Matthew 10:13,14 come to my mind. 'And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.' Not being protected by my former church or my parents come to my mind, for I was violated by both because they were pacifists and did not protect their daughter. Let the righteous who follow our laws come to live with us. Leave the unrighteous to their own ends. We must protect our own first before we can go abroad to help others.
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inga
personally. part of my make up is a humanitarian point of view. and on a personal level i do help in my own ways. family, friends, locals, immigrants.. who ever i can aid within my means, i will.
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inga
i have two syrian /muslim boys renting rooms in my house for the school year while attending nursing at the local college.they are great kids. as are their parents.
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inga
the info submitted is screened. some post are posted. the longer personal experiences are not. i have submitted some on WHAT i taught in a local ESL class of immigrant women, and it was not posted on several occasions. as were several other entries. this too is a bias site. i gave it the benefit of the doubt . but it has been demonstrated repeatedly. so, rather than change the rules. i need to change the club. good luck all, you are being minipulated.
watch this. this one they will print so i look off.. but consider your selves warned.. its the site that chooses the messages.
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inga
not all messages are printed.you are being minipulated
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Evangelist Deon Bresler
I am a Evangelist send from Africa to minister to the American people the gosple of Jesus Christ. We are legally in the country and all paper work in order, but this all came after a long hard process. We had many opertunaties to just do everything Illigle but through the grace of God stuck to the legal system. For any immigrant this is a tuff journey and many give up half way through the process, but don't give up, stay determent in reaching your goal and keep your eyes on Jesus. So far it has been a woundeful journey and we are seeing people giving theire lives to Jesus no matter if they legal or illigal, criminal or Joe soap from the block, Jesus love you all !! To all people i would say these words of Jesus, love your neighbour as you love yourself. Amen.
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Wen
hmmmmm terrible problems in Canada. Must be related to quality of education.....life expectancy....murder rate....Best stay out of that dangerous place Kirk.
The teachings for Christians are NOT teachings for government. Those had already been given at Sinai. The way I am to treat a person I see needing shelter have nothing to do with the way one government is supposed to act toward another government. The reason for this is simple: If I choose to be generous OR stingy with what is mine, that is my right, my privilege, my responsibility. If government chooses to give away what is mine, that is theft and tyranny. Therefore, governments and individuals do not abide by the same rules and should not. I know most of you think Jesus was just a syrupy-sweet Ghandi type of man but you are unaware of His character which existed before the planet was made, according to the scripture (John 1, Hebrews 1, others). Regardless of all that, He nowhere said our governments should be Christ-like, NOR CAN THEY BE. Now, let the self-righteous hand-wringing begin.
Your right about our government but as christians should we not be full of compassuon
Dear Rev Paul, Why are we not being Christians for not turning a blind eye toward the theft, lying and manipulation to achieve illegal immigration? The act itself is non-christian, then to imply that we are somehow to be above and be more christian in accepting it with compassion???.....why do they not accept our laws for entry, and the associated costs to our government, who's laws were determined for and by the people...and with that we can force the people that work for us to come up with a solution for this problem.
Thy neighbor, it is assumed, regardless of class, race, gender, sexuality is given equal protections under the law of man. After all we will all answer to God for our own transgressions which was written in ten commandments. illegal immigrants were not enslaved and made to come here, but choose to come here by an illegal act based on stealing, want and envy...all clearly listed as the main things not to do for any reason under the commandments. This does not mean that we can not forgive, but we must abide the laws we put in place.
Dear Rev Paul, I think we should be compassionate but not to the point of stupidity. Have you ever treated people with substance abuse problems? The counselors tell you not to be an enabler. Don't give them any money. If you do, you might as well go buy their substance. This is the same principle. I am to help my fellow man, but I am not to allow my fellow man to take what is mine or throw their trash in my yard or destroy my property or abuse my family.
My first responsibility is to my family, then my community, then my country and only THEN to the world. We cannot feed everyone. We can teach them to stop breeding, but apparently we haven't taught our own people to stop. My compassion has to end where someone else's stupidity or stubbornness begins, or else I become an enabler, and hasten my own demise by doing so.
the GOVT has to make rules that cover EVERYONE (as best they can): the amish, the menonites, the mormons, the jehovahs witnesses, the muslims, the catholics, the protestents, the baptists, the presbyterians, the athiest, etc etc etc etc etc etc. arggg.
and on a personal level, the govt will respect and even protect on our choices, as best the govt can. not a bad deal !! seems a better deal with the govt towards people, vs the people towards the govt ??!! could be a good reason for that. rules of the book club. we have rights to our opinions, and should be open to validation as well as constructive criticism and/or correction., if this is the book club, we are choosing to participate in.
else, we do have the freedoms... to look for a new book club.. just saying..
romans 13 its a short one, you all have time to read it. as a matter a fact, you should take time out to read the whole book.. it will make more sense. i recommend, starting at revelations. which is a wacky book.. and then re reading the book finishing with "ah ha moments" of revelations.. and that may help clarify. revelations is kind of like.. the reading the book report of t he book.. the section they print on the book jacket to tell you what the book is about.. the carrot.. lol.
its really not all that long a book. and it will keep you out of trouble and save you some money in the mean time while you a reading. give you a chance to catch up on some bills while you are not spending. but reading instead.. lol AND. once read, you can move onto other books and not talk about the same book over and over and over and over for your whole life time but actually finish off that to do list so you can read other books too. there are so many out there.
back to eden. how tos.. who dunnits.. nature books and magazines.. etc etc.
but first.. if you want to argue the bible. you must understand the bible. not your version of what you think the book club should be in the name of the bible. if you want to make your opinion, leave the bible out of your commentary to avoid confusion for those who have not read it yet. suggesting that you are an authority on. as with the govt. make sure you are fully aware of the govt rules and regulations on, so as not to confuse your opinions for govt realities.
we the people are NOT the govt.. lol. any more then we the people are not doctors even though we need them.
read romans 13 for better understanding. these people are TRAINED professionals . and if you need further clarification as to why WE ordinary people can not run the country.. read the comments below.. lol
we tend to look at things from a personal perspective. the god and the govt are looking at the bog picture; which again includes the russians, the mexicans, the muslims, the amish, the penguins and the polar bears .. and everyone in between.
i am not sure why the "children of god" blogs are of "controlversial issues".. i have only looked at the blogs for maybe a week. and yikes. its a sad representation that would scare people from god. i would have thought it would have been more on.. education.. like why we need (XX) as they pollinate the blueberries ..something to look up that is positive.. what is mosquitoes place in the world.. and the wisdom of the crowd., see the article of guessing the weight of the cow at the country fair, which later lead to the jelly beans on the far contests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOucwX7Z1HU
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0
this goes with my post on the Romans, russians and the amish .. not sure where it went, but not posted yet ?? i guess it sometimes takes a moment..??