Sheffield University has been recognized as one of top 100 colleges in the world, but now the college is making headlines for the wrong reasons. Controversy erupted last year after university officials expelled a Christian student for his views on gay marriage. Felix Ngole, a father of four, was kicked out of a 2-year social work training program after officials were alerted to inflammatory comments he made online.
Ngole wrote on Facebook that gay marriage is "sinful," a position that shocked some of his classmates. He also expressed his support of a US legal clerk, Kim Davis, who was jailed for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. In one of his posts, Ngole quoted from the Bible and described same-sex relationships as "an abomination". Citing his traditional Christian beliefs, officials declared Ngole "unfit" to be a social worker and removed him from the program.
Ngole was recently given the go ahead to take legal action against the university.
Standing Against Discrimination
Despite the backlash, Sheffield University has stood by the decision to expel Ngole. They insist that he broke the code of personal conduct and his removal was necessary to protect other students from being offended and having their studies disrupted.
The university went on to argue that Ngole's "derogatory comments are likely to undermine the trust and confidence that lesbian, gay and bisexual clients are entitled to have in his professional role as a social worker (and in the social work profession more widely)."
Deeply Held Beliefs
Sheffield University has also argued that Ngole's comments were discriminatory. But Ngole is pushing back. He counters, saying: "I am the one being discriminated against because of my expression of Christian beliefs."
Felix Ngole came to Britain in 2003 from Cameroon, seeking asylum and a better life for his family. Since then, he has earned two university degrees and worked as a religious teacher.
Ngole explains that he is fighting for reinstatement as a student not only for himself, but also to stand up for the right of free speech and freedom of religion subjects that have become increasingly contentious on college campuses over the past few years.
His lawyer echoed this sentiment in a court statement: "The expression that homosexuality is a 'sin', or even use of the strong Biblical term of 'abomination', is a lawful religious expression. The idea that someone could be expelled from a social work course for expressing a view in a Facebook post and then declared not fit to practice is very detrimental to free speech."
Discrimination or Free Speech?
The controversy over Felix Ngoles' expulsion illustrates the blurry line between discrimination and free speech.
On the one hand, his comments were unkind, unpopular, and (some would argue) deplorable. But on the other hand, Ngole didn't advocate for violence or encourage discrimination, he was simply expressing his beliefs. No matter how one might feel about a specific belief, free speech is an important tenet of modern society. We ought to be careful about addressing limitations on it.
The pending court decision could have lasting implications on how free speech is treated on college campuses (and in general).
What do you think did Ngole deserve to be expelled, or did the university overreact? Is it OK for a social worker to hold anti-gay views?
150 comments
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Deidre Gilford
We don't have the right to judge anyone. Read the Bible and get your own understanding of how to live your life, opinions are just that.... opinions..... The Bible states man and woman .... How others want to live their lives is no one's business we will all be in the presence of the God and will have to atone for all the sins in our lives so keep your opinions to yourself.... This world that we live in is not what it's supposed to be from our crooked government to the society itself the world is another Sodom and Gomorrah but worse and one day God will return and level this place just like he did back then.....the sooner the better....now that's my opinion and it's just an opinion.....
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Sylvi
He was discriminating and I didagree with what he said. But we have the right to say what we want in this country. He was not disturbing the peace or yelling it at a gay wedding. You can't tell people what to think and say. That is a dangerous precedent to set.
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jack gerard foster
continue to stand up for God no matter what the cost because he stood up for you and look what it cost him. God bless you brother.
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Debbie
It seems that most of the comments here presume that US law is at play. This university is in the United Kingdom. They have different standards than we in the US do. I cannot tell whether Sheffield is a private university, but the First Amendment only applies to government actors. As far as I'm concerned, he can believe anything he wants to believe. He can say anything that he wants to say. But if he goes against the principles of his university, then that university has the right to kick him out. Just as a university chooses students based on grades, extracurricular activities, and a host of other criteria, clearly this one has standards that he has run afoul of. Let him go to another school that is a better fit for him. When I was in law school, a very progressive secular institution, there was a Mormon student who wanted to change all sorts of things, including even changing the law school's colors to distinguish it from the larger university of which it was a part. It seemed that he carried some of the same racial animus that has been a part of mainstream Mormonism for some time, and our law school was part of an HBCU. Personally I find Kim Davis odious and thoroughly disgusting. I wouldn't be caught dead in the same room with her. I'm glad that I'll be able to avoid Ngole for the same reasons. I completely support freedom of speech. I want to know whom to look out for.
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Frank Schrimp
Absolutely; the college overreacted! The student absolutely has the right to SAY whatever he wants to say and believe in whatever he chooses to believe in. What he DOES NOT have the right to do is harm another person based on his beliefs. Even as a homosexual man, I would (if I could) show up to that court to defend his rights to free speech. As long as he's not physically harming another individual, I could care less what he says. Don't see me (for example) walking around telling people I don't eat sugar because I'm loosing weight therefore you shouldn't either because it's against MY belief system. Please.....
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John Owens
Amen
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Rev. John D. Partin
Frank Schrimp, you are one homosexual man who doesn't care about someone's calling homosexuality "immoral", but, of course, you don't speak for all homosexual men on their feelings about someone's calling them "immoral". Your not minding it is no sign that all other gay men shouldn't mind it, either. Ngole's "not doing any harm" just because he didn't physically attack anyone, but only insulted their sexual preference, is a very subjective and limited view of "doing harm". If someone insults your family and calls your sister a "whore", do you have to wait until they actually physically attack you or knock your sister in the head with a pipe before you can defend yourself and your family against that person?! Harm to people isn't only caused by physical attacks, but also by hurtful words said against people who are minding their own business and expecting you or Ngole to do the same (unrealistically, in his case). He said hurtful things about other people, who weren't doing so to him (and how does that square with his professed "Christianity" of "doing unto others as you would have others do unto you" and "loving your neighbor as yourself", except by not squaring with it?!) and so he should have to suffer the consequences of his words to these inoffensive people, which means expulsion! His "Christianity" is only about insulting other people and sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong, but not about the actual Christianity of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you and loving your neighbor as yourself. The first kind of "Christianity" is cheap and easy and anyone can follow that, which is what he did, but the second and real kind costs and isn't easy to follow and that is why Ngole and most others refuse to follow it!!
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John P Person
The college over-reacted. We have the freedom of speech.
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Timothy Mayer
SOMEONE THAT IS PLANNING TO BE A SOCIAL WORKER HAS NO BUSINESS MAKING RELIGIOUS JUDGMENTS. Keep your ignorant mistranslations of the Bible in your ignorant minds and churches of hate. Moronic concepts of sin have nothing to do with compassion and serving others, which is what is required of a social worker. Zealots should work for churches and not governments of the people, all the people.
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John Owens
SOUNDS like you have quite a bit of hate, yourself there, Timothy. Let's see: You said ignorant twice, churches of hate, moronic concepts, and zealots. You also said people who work for governments cannot have religious convictions, which is the same as having no morals, no honor. Yep. I think you are a little bit conflicted somewhere in there. Oh, you also think you are NOT ignorant, which is, at best, presumptuous.
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Debbie
From your seemingly manic need to answer every comment on this thread, John, I'd say you're not too well put together yourself. I read anger in Timothy's comment, not hate. Maybe it is time for you to look inward and not be so judgmental yourself. Because you reek of it.
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John Owens
ummm, geez, Debbie. Since I haven't answered EVERY comment on this thread, and this was not directed at you, YOU may well be the manic. I also think it's interesting the way you call HIS ranting anger, but are willing to call others hate. I REEK of being judgmental? That might be yourself there. Just saying, consider your own motivations here, RATHER THAN MINE. I didn't get on Timothy hard. Why are you defending him, UNLESS YOU'RE MANIC?
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John Owens
And, BTW, I think I answered less than 1/2 the comments on this thread. Your perceptions are not reality. Take a hard look at yourself.
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Rev. Elizabeth S. Arsenault
We have the right to free speech and from what I read I didn't see him being violent about his belief. All he did was quote bible passages and showed his disdain for homosexuality. It is his right to do this as much as it is the right for the homosexuals to show that they have a right to live their lifestyle as they see fit. No one is taking that away from them. The people who support that lifestyle is using their free speech with violence towards this young man. All they have to do is state their beliefs. They don't have to be violent and a school should not expel a student for their beliefs. He did not show any violence. This school was 100% wrong and so were the people threatening this young man. Everyone has a right to their beliefs and free speech without violence.
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John Owens
My thoughts, too, Elizabeth.
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Mini ben
I think Christianity is sinful, do I now get banned?
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John Owens
No Ben. You can say anything you want about Christ, the Bible, Moses, Christians, or Jews, and THAT's protected speech. You can just anything about anyone else without risk of actual persecution. Right now, that's anyone who has anything to do with LGBTQ stuff, or Muslims.
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Ben
Jesus came and brought a NEW covenant, closing the old (the old testaments rules and laws). Christ has no comments about homosexuality. That said, many companies, mine included, reserve the right to fire - if you post inflammatory things on social media. He has a right to his opinions, but must be prepared to face the consequences for voicing them.
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Curtis Butler
While you are correct on certain points here Ben you are a little skewed on this. Christ said in 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Now later Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 "Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, even against your own brothers! 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" In 1 Timothy 1:10 "We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching 11 that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted"
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John Owens
Thank you, Curtis. It is a HUMONGOUS inconsistency in popular teaching that Christians basically have NO rules. Like God is going to be MUCH more lenient on them than, say, David, or Moses, or Abraham even. When He spoke of the New covenant (in many places) in Jeremiah 31:33, what LAW is it He says He will put in our inward parts and our hearts? When Jesus becomes King of the Kingdom of God (which is one more place that tells you that Jesus IS Jehovah), by what set of laws does anyone think He will rule? When the prophet said the LAW shall go forth out of Zion, what LAW did he mean?
Modern Christians think if they just claim to love Christ and believe that He died for them and then rose again, that they have it made for Eternity. You cannot love the true Christ if you do not KNOW Him. The Law defines morality and criminality, good and evil, the MIND of God, and the Mind of Christ (Let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus). Mankind would not, does not have a clue without it.
And, by the way, for Ben, the New Covenant has not even begun on this planet, except maybe for a VERY select few humans. When the New Covenant takes effect, people will no longer teach about God, because all will know Him, from the least to the greatest. You can read that in Jeremiah 31:31 and the next few verses.
Jesus is the same forever, and if He lives in a person today, that person will live like Jesus did-- not like a heathen.
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Lyn
I do not believe it is ANYONES right to object to accepted life choices. One can hold personal beliefs, but not foist them on others. ONTOH, this person expressed his beliefs on FB. This is a personal public forum. He didn't throw a tantrum at college. It was FB. I loathe Donald Trump and express it on FB. I do not carry it into my job, my business, or my learning institution. There is no reason to to punish me for my right of expression. It impacts some, but they are entitled to say something on FB. It shouldn't carry over to my job, my business or my place of learning.
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Ruth Sanchez
First what are the rules of the University, code of conduct. I would not hire him to work as a social worker or any job related to people. He has two degrees and a job, he can pass on this one. If he truly live as the Holy Bible says I have a few questions: 1. Does he or his wife us any form of birth control? Is he totally with out sin, (even a angry through, forgiving of all people)? Has he ever touched his self in a sexual way? If not according to the Bible he and his wife should be stoned to death.
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John Owens
This copied verbatim from the lead-in to the blog: "Sheffield University has stood by the decision to expel Ngole. They insist that he broke the code of personal conduct and his removal was necessary to protect other students from being offended and having their studies disrupted."
I would submit that it is NOT Sheffield's JOB to protect other students from being offended. That is not their role. It is not under their purview. They are neither qualified nor capable of protecting students from being offended. That is impossible. If their beliefs cannot survive dissidence, those beliefs MUST be false. If you cannot maintain your beliefs and your dignity in the face of controversy, you do not HAVE beliefs or dignity. You have only illusion.
THAT is why students today need to be "protected". They are being sheltered from having to defend what they have been taught to believe, and their instructors cannot intellectually justify their teachings.
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daniel
how does it affect you if someone else is gay, its not like gayness is a product they are trying to force you to purchase. Just calm down, smoke some weed and be happier
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John Owens
How does it affect you if someone thinks that is sinful? It's not like they are trying to force you to stop being gay. Why can't everyone just calm down and be happier.
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Father Errol Montgomery-Robertson
It is interesting for me to see "what goes around, comes around" in action, but I take no joy or comfort in it. Right leaning religious folks think they can deny civil rights to those they deem "sinners" or "abominations" with impunity. Deny marriage licenses, deny services, etc. to LGBT folks under the guise of "religious freedom," but when "an eye for an eye" punches them in the face, they cry religious persecution. You can't have it both ways. Injustice for some is injustice for all. Whether people want to accept it or not, we live in a secular society and state. And separation of church and state is a good thing for this very reason. Your religious freedom ends where my nose begins.
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John Owens
OKAY, Errol. Everything you just said SHOULD work both ways. Injustice for some IS injustice for all. He didn't deny anyone any rights whatsoever, didn't beat on anyone, didn't deny any services. What drum are you pounding? You ARE SAYING that he does not have the right to openly say what he believes, at the same time that you are OPENLY SAYING WHAT YOU BELIEVE. You just said your rights trump his. Hypocrisy is not limited to the right.
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Shelly
Social Workers in the US, if they want to be licensed, have to agree to the code of ethics of the profession. We don't know the details of communications between this individual and his school program. Details are lacking and we are making decisions about the rightness or wrongness of the Universitys actions based on limited information. On the face of it, if this guy was in a US University and he espoused these beliefs, which run contrary to the code of ethics and licensing requirements, he may not be accepted into the profession. Again we don't really know the details, and I don't know if the legal requirements are the same in the UK as over here across the pond, but if his stated beliefs would be part of his work with clients, and he made judgements based on these beliefs, then he would be in violation of the code of ethics. If his actions were egregious he could lose his license. Again, personal opinions and beliefs are just that and shouldn't cause one to lose a place in a college program, unless they run contrary to the "rules of the road". He may have been adamant about his beliefs and pressuring clients to convert... we just don't know. However, based on what has been presented, I wouldn't want him to be my social worker.
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Sir William the fearless
Matthew 7 :1 Judge not lest ye be judged.
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Suzanne Yates
No he should not have been expelled because it is sin. It is very clear in the Bible that is sin. You can't take out what you want to because someone people don't want to hear about it.
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Jim D.
Interesting topic. I feel many of the comments express agreement or disagreement with what Ngole said on his facebook page and not what actually happened. So I'm going to approach this differently, mostly because I neither agree or disagree with Ngole. I don't care what he said because it's his opinion, nothing more.
First, I thought colleges are supposed to be one of the bastions of dissent. I guess only if your dissenting opinion happens to agree with the vast majority of the other dissenting opinions on campus... which then would make it the popular opinion and not the dissenting opinion. Ironic, isn't it?
Second, the article says that according to the university, Ngole "broke the code of personal conduct," and that was the reason for his dismissal. I'd like to see this code of conduct. It's not on their website. If Sheffield were a private college, then maybe they would have a leg to stand on. Sheffield, however, is a public university, and is therefore subject to the laws of the land. I'm not from England, but I assume they have something akin to the 1st Amendment over there. And while Ngole's comments may be unpopular, he has a right to express them, and he did so on his own social media page, not something belonging to the university. Legally speaking (and I'm not a lawyer), If the personal code of conduct runs contrary to the law, then the code is wrong and the university is wrong in dismissing Ngole.
Oh, and Father Errol, a slight correction. We are free to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. It's only a crime if panic ensues. If you yell "Fire!" and no one reacts, you'll get tossed out of the theater for being a disruptive jerk, but you haven't committed a crime.
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John Owens
Very well said, Jim.
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jim
Well said, indeed. The way I first read (OK, skimmed) this article, the alleged violation of Sheffield's "code of personal conduct" WAS what Ngole wrote on Facebook, but the story doesn't unequivocally say that. Did he do something else that isn't mentioned here at all? Anyway, I think your points about public/private schooling and US/UK legal standards of conduct go to the heart of the matter. The law might say one thing, the University another, the biblical traditions upon which Ngole claims to base his judgmental opinions another still.
I have often wondered about your "Fire!" example. In the case of speech that is intended to cause panic or violence, the consequences have to be taken into consideration -- just as there are prosecutorial differences between conspiring to plant a bomb, actually planting the bomb (even if it doesn't go off), and causing an explosion that damages property and/or kills or injures people. To put it in Ngole's self-proclaimed "Christian" terms, there are religious "thoughtcrimes" (covetousness, for example), but the law tends to govern actions -- although charges of conspiracy or intent can still be brought. I haven't read what Ngole actually wrote, but from the information that can be gleaned from this brief story, it appears that you're correct to say that the "crime" here is one of expressing an unpopular or ill-formed opinion, harmful, hateful or ignorant as it may also be. But was it a direct incitement to violence?
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Jim D.
I didn't see the actual post, but from what I gather it simply made negative comments about gay marriage. The article did not say that the post was calling for any violence to be done.
As for the "Fire!" example, I think you have just as much of a chance of causing a human stampede if you were to yell, "There's a turd in the pool!" It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Can you imagine having to go to court because you yelled that, and someone was injured in the stampede? That's why simply yelling something isn't enough to rise to the level of a crime, and you can't prove that yelling something will result in harm.
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alencon
The UK doesn't have anything as strong as the 1st Amendment. A lot depends upon what he actually said on his facebook post. "Inflammatory comments" might be more then modestly expressing one's belief that homosexuality is a sin.
There just aren't enough details to arrive at a conclusion.
"...you’ll get tossed out of the theater for being a disruptive jerk"
Well, perhaps he got tossed out of the university for being a disruptive jerk.
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Father Errol Montgomery-Robertson
Thanks for clarifying, Jim. Blessings!
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39husker
so in fairness, anyone for gay marriage is unqualified to be a social worker because many clients don't share the same belief.
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John Owens
Excellent point, Husker. Something I have attempted to express in different words elsewhere on this page. I like the way you said that.
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diggeriraq
I wrote this a long time ago ,,, """" Just speaking for myself """. ~~ I DO NOT CARE what a person’s sexual preference is **as long as it is not with children or forced upon anyone !!! ** ~~ I DO NOT CARE what religion a person is ~~ I DO NOT CARE what color a person is ~~ I DO NOT CARE where a person is from. I go by the GOLDEN RULE = Do unto others as I would want done to me !!!!!,,, ~ EVERYBODY needs to " STOP " ALL of the RACIAL BS !!!!!!!!!! ~~ First = > there are "NO WHITE PEOPLE !!" just LIGHT TAN (or light beige colored) people, ~~ Second = > there are " NO BLACK PEOPLE !! " just BROWN people - they are just DIFFERENT SHADES of BROWN ""EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD are just DIFFERENT SHADES OF BROWN = LIGHT BEIGE to DARK BROWN."" >>>> We are ONLY ONE RACE = the " HUMAN RACE !! " <<<>> WE ARE ALL KINFOLK !!!!!!! <<< The Bible tells us that GOD created the HUMAN RACE starting with Adam and Eve, ***NO MATTER WHAT COLOR A PERSONS SKIN IS !! *** ~~~ I am very blessed to have many friends and family all over the world in ALL shapes , sizes , gay , straight , colors (shades of brown) , nationalities and ALL religions. It is neither mine nor anybody else’s business what any person’s sexual preference is. That is THEIR CHOICE and between themselves and their GOD !!!!!!!!! As long as it is not with children or forced or hurts anyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Alice Looney
Fact: Sheffield University offers a two-years training program and presumably some sort of Certificate or Associate Degree attesting to his competence the field of social work. Fact: The field of social work requires an objective (not influenced by personal feelings or beliefs in considering facts) approach to difficult situations, a wide variety of personalities, and complex problems. Fact: Same-sex marriages became legal in the UK (except Northern Ireland) in March 2014 and in the USA in June 2015. Fact: Mr. Ngole expressed his support in a public forum for the actions of Rowan County, KY clerk Kim Davis when she unlawfully defied a US Supreme Court order by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
While Mr. Nogle has every right to his feelings and opinions and every right to express them peacefully, as the saying goes "anything you say can and will be held against you...."
Mr. Ngole has clearly demonstrated his lack of objective judgment and Sheffield University has declined to allow him to continue to participate in a degree program for which he is clearly not qualified.
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John Owens
Amazing how you unbiased people say if person is "objective" in your eyes, they are disqualified. Your ideas of objectivity are biased and you can't even perceive what is right in front of you, even after you write it down in black and white. How can YOU BE SO BIASED, as to be blind to your own contradictions?
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kenneth bruun-olsen
The Guy was Stupid Online, which is an All Too Common Affliction these days, the US has a President who does it for a Living now and all it manages to do is to show His True Lack of Intelligence. Unfortunately I (Myself and The New Testament of the Bible) don't agree with him. In fact I believe that Any Christian Church that discriminates against the Gay Community is NOT in fact following Christian Tradition or Belief. If I'm not Mistaken JESUS (The Main Dude of the Christian Theology) NEVER spoke up against Homosexuality at any time. In fact I would say that The True Jesus would have probably had Gay Friends himself (and THAT is a GOOD THING). My recollection is that 'Man must only be with woman' concept was brought up in Deuteronomy, and that is Old Testament and therefore Not in Jesus' Wheelhouse as a subject. I think that he was speaking more from his personal belief than say , for the sake of 'Bullying', which was good, but I think he should have remembered back to his Bible to the 'Judge Not an Ye Shall Not Be Judged' bit. Again, being an Idiot Online is not unusual but being Expelled for it might have been a bit of an Overreaction, and as long as he made no threats or suggestions towards violence was made I'd say that some sort of Probation would have been more in line. That guy has got an entire Lifetime to Figure it Out for himself....Hopefully.
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John Owens
It is not discriminatory to call a white man white, a short man short, a fat man fat. It is not discriminatory to tell a whore, or a thief, or a murderer, or a hypocrite OR A HOMOSEXUAL what the Bible says about those things. It IS discriminatory NOT to tell them. You cannot rob humanity of an ancient source of knowledge because someone might get their feelings hurt if they read it or hear about it. That is ridiculous. Also, just because you have a soft spot for a certain group of people, you can't remake Jesus or the Bible to make them feel better. Paul said there were former homosexuals in the church, who had been saved or remade through conversion. First Corinthians 6:9-11. People now say that cannot happen. Somebody's lying. I trust Paul more than the Universities.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Calling someone white or short or fat, if they are, is merely stating objective fact. Calling homosexuals "sinners" just because it says so, in some verses in the Bible (and in other verses approves of homosexuality or, at least, is non-disparaging about it) is subjective opinion about it. Subjective opinion about homosexuality or anything else in the Bible doesn't stop being subjective opinion merely because it is in the Bible, but is, obviously and logically, only subjective opinion still even in the Bible. Subjective opinion of human beings on the matter of homosexuality, which was put into God's mouth, is still really only those human beings' opinions about it, no matter how much they tried to disguise that fact!! The Bible isn't a source of knowledge when it is talking about mere opinions and prejudices, anymore than Mein Kampf or any other prejudicial book or source about anything else is, but is a source only of ignorance and stupidity on that point and others. Gay people can't be lumped in indiscriminately with whores, thieves, murderers, and hypocrites because that is more bigotry against homosexuality and gayness is natural and genetic and not a choice, as are these other behaviors, and so there is no comparison between gayness and these things, except according to homophobes!! We don't need to look through antiquated and obsolete books, such as the Bible, for ignorance and stupidity when there is already plenty of it being vomited out by conservatives and homophobes in this blog and out in the world today!! Jesus and the Bible, quite obviously, need to be remade and made more relevant to actual truth in the world and human nature, since they have been so distorted and manipulated by councils, kings, interpreters, theologians, conservatives, homophobes, and millions of others down through the centuries and millenia and must be brought in line with current reasonable standards of social acceptance and celebration of gay sexuality and other matters!! People's "having been saved or remade through conversion and leaving their gay sexuality behind" in Paul's time is no more credible or realistic or relevant than gay people's "being converted and abandoning homosexuality today" because of "conversion therapy", which is just their stupidly going along with brainwashing and mind control of themselves and being used by homophobes for their own agenda and propaganda against homosexuality. Once gay, always gay, except in duped persons' views of themselves and according to homophobic propagandists against homosexuality, after their "conversion". Gayness isn't a sin or problem that people need to be "delivered from", but is just normal and healthy sexuality and something to be celebrated and accepted in people!!! Paul was wrong and the Universities, in accepting gayness, are 100% right!! It is discrimination to impose homophobia upon gay people, the same as it is to impose white racism upon black people, and that is all that there is to it!!
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Jim
Morally, Ngoles is wrong, but he should not be expelled for his ignorance. School is for learning! He has a right to be wrong, and that right is protected by the First Amendment, even if his own behavior is sinful in the eyes of God. I'm not claiming to speak for God -- nobody can -- just saying his righteousness is questionable. Jesus Christ and Christian scripture do not overtly condemn homosexuality (even in diluted modern English mis-translations) but some in the church have interpreted the dogma that way for many years. We know that some biblical "abominations" were labeled as such for transitory, localized political and social reasons having to do with property rights and bloodlines, for example -- things that, like slavery, we would never now accept as "Christian." So, I guess you could claim a person's same-sex orientation or behavior was "sinful" by some historical definition, the context for which we don't understand today unless we've been educated in such things. But which is the greater sin: loving someone or condemning people for loving others? Dogma is subject to varying interpretations over time and place and fashion, but morality is not. Look in the mirror before you judge.
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Jim
Sorry, I misunderstood where Sheffield University is located. I cited the "First Amendment" in my comment, but Sheffield is in the UK. The rest of my argument stands.
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Pastor Russell Ricard
This young man's opinion is just that, his opinion and I realize that he feels this way from his interpretation of what he has read and beliefs passed down through the years. Thou shalt not judge. Anyone who can get by this statement by God because you are His creator, which you are not and if you continue in this vein it only serves in one's disregard for His word and does fan the flames of ignorance and hatred which seem to work hand and hand. Gay people or not, we are all His creation and when you feel you can speak or judge for Him, well I am sure you can figure it out.
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John Owens
Russell, if I just repeat something God Himself has said, and credit God with having said it, am I somehow usurping His authority? On the other hand, if I do not tell anyone what He has said, am I not doing a great disservice to humanity? It is not judgemental to say that God said this or that, when He DID say it, is it? I think too many people are missing an important component here. Was it hate-speech to tell smokers that smoking causes lung cancer? Is it discriminatory to ban smoking in public places? Don't you feel sorry for those poor smokers? They're bound to feel like second-class citizens because people don't want them smoking around them. If you BELIEVE that God said something is a sin, and you NEVER TELL ANYONE, you may be participating in their sin (read "crime") as an accessory. Okay, let's take this ONE STEP FURTHER, to illustrate the absurdity: What if, someone AKS me what the Bible says? Am I supposed to lie? I can't do that, can I?
So, am I supposed to tell a porn star that God says her profession is perfectly fine with Him? What about a serial killer? Should I tell him that God loves serial killers?
Of course I know that God loves everyone that has ever been born or created, but that doesn't mean He loves everything they do. I am convinced He loved Hitler, when Hitler was a child, and He may still, but He also says each of us will be judged according to our WORKS. Therefore, we MUST publicize the works God says are good, and the works God says are NOT good.-
Rev. John D. Partin
To whom it may concern, you haven't proven that God said anything just because of its being written down in the Bible, since there is still the "small" problem of the intermediaries and interpreters of "God's will" and self-appointed "spokesmen for God" putting their two cents into the Bible standing between us and this "God". If I don't even believe human press and publicity agents about their clients or National Enquirer writers about the subjects of their stories without first verifying all of that with the clients and subjects in question themselves, why on Earth would I or any other reasonable and realistic people just swallow hook, line, and sinker whatever the Bible writers said that their "client" and story subject (God) said when none of that can be verified directly with him?!! That is just a totally illogical procedure and contrary to our practice with everybody else!! Stupid going along with just whatever anyone wants to put into the "mouth of God" isn't holier or more saintly or righteous behavior than any other gullibility and suckerishness, but is very much worse than all of the rest of it put together because it affects us more than all the rest of it. So, first prove that God actually said that "homosexuality is a sin" and not that someone said that "he said that" (and stop putting the cart before the horse) and then you might have a legitimate argument for people's giving up homosexuality. Until then, you don't!!
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Bill
This young man should never have been expelled. This is his God given right to express his opinion. This country is quickly loosing its common sense. Frightening to say the least.
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Len Rudnick
He has First Amendment right to express his feelings. The school has a right to react to his expression. They are both correct in their expressions and legal right to do so. If you truly believe in something, you should be willing to accept the reactions of those around you.
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Ed
In my opinion, the university overreacted. He has every right to hold and express his religious beliefs, whether I, or anyone else, agree with them.
He was not advocating any violence or action against gay people, just stating his opinion.
I'm a gay man and I fully support his right to his religious beliefs and his right to express them.
And I told him so.
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John Owens
...and thank you. It's a matter of freedom, in this case.
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John Owens
His speech was neither hateful nor inflammatory, but informative. It informs those who read it what God says and it informs what the student thinks.
If I tell you that I think turnip greens are disgusting, is that hateful or inflammatory speech just because you eat them? No. It informs you of my opinion of turnip greens. If I say I only find women who practice hygiene and monogamy attractive, is that hateful or inflammatory toward women who do NOT practice hygiene and monogamy? I really don't think it is, but if the truth hurts them, the problem is theirs and not mine. I know a LOT of women who would never be caught dating a man who is less than 6 feet tall. Is it hateful or inflammatory? Does it hurt men who are less than 6 feet tall? Would it be inflammatory if I tell you that anyone who pretends to believe in evolution as it is generally taught CANNOT possibly intellectually reconcile that belief with one in a "homosexual gene"?If many of the people commenting on this blog were judged by the same standards the University used, their comments would not be posted. Of course, that would defeat the purpose of the blog, wouldn't it?
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ScrapStitcher (@Donna_Apperson)
He had a right to say what he said where and when he said it. I don't agree with him, but then again, I don't have to.
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John Owens
Good for you, Donna. "Though I disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it."
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Walter J. Wentz
Depends on just how hateful or inflammatory his "free speech" is… if, say, it is intended to incite and/or justify violence against gay couples, or contains personal threats of violence. In that case, the university may have a case. But if the student is merely parroting his own religion's inculcated disapproval of gay marriage, who should give a shrill whoop what he says?
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Shelly
If he was an engineering major and was not being trained to counsel people in need then I agree that his expulsion would be discriminatory. However I am assuming he understood the beliefs and framwork of the SOCIAL WORK program he entered and if he violated those rules/beliefs then I say the college was within their right to expell him. I wouldn't want a graduate of my program going about expounding a clear bias against LGBT individuals. In the same way as I would not want a graduate to propagate to racist beliefs. Doing no harm is part of the role of a social worker and someone with his bias would not be safe with people in need. I would stand by his expulsion.
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Father Errol Montgomery-Robertson
Freedom of expression? We are not free to say things that can incite violence or persecution of others, or endanger others. We are not free to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, if there isn't one. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. In the American context, this freedom means the government cannot censor your expression, but does not prevent private or non-governmental entities from acting.
What reaction did he expect to get? For what purpose did he make these comments? It is obvious it was in order to vilify and dehumanize LGBTQ people. If the intention of right wing fundamentalists is to "win souls" for Christ, this certainly misses the mark as it pushes people away. I like to ask these "righteous ones," whom did Jesus hang out with?
I am insure about the UK, but American medical and psychological establishments have long abandoned the diagnosis of homosexuality as pathology. I believe social work boards and associations have adopted a similar position. Does his "deeply held religious conviction" affect the impartiality of his work?
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John Owens
Your acrimony HAS to be fake. No one could be that pseudo-intellectual and be sincere.
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Peter
'Acrimony"?! What bitterness is Errol demonstrating? He has put forth the best argument in this case I have yet read. Which parts of his statements do you find contrary to your own beliefs/opinions? You have offered nothing in your response save more snide comments.
Methinks, Mr. Owens, that you attend these pages merely to troll, as you appear to offer little but pot-stirring. Your petty rejoinders are reminiscent of the petulant child standing behind the teacher, sticking his tongue out at his adversary.
You needn't reply, Mr. Owens. I'm on to you...
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John Owens
Peter is another pseudo-intellectual. See how he says "petty" and "petulant" and "snide" and "rejoinders"? A self-inflated and self-congratulatory pedagogue I imagine. Oh, did you see how he says, "troll"? That's a dead giveaway. A pretender to reason, but a mindless goof. As if when I comment it is trolling, but when he does it, it is not. How mindless can you get? Sorry Peter. I suppose when I say these things it is hate speech, but when you do it is not. You are the one hiding behind the teacher, and you are the emotionally challenged baby. I am not that way.
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Peter
...and I thank you for stepping up and proving my point, Mr. Owens.
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John Owens
Peter, Peter, Peter. You never had a point, except maybe the one on your head. You just wanted to call me a troll, which you did, and I trolled you good for it. Now, run along, before you accidentally get a glimpse of what you really are. There's a good lad.
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Preacher Jim
I am truly not a strict fundamentalist or literalist, but Mr. Ngole's quotes, are literally what the Holy Bible says. So, having said that, can we as humans say that, man shall not lay down with man and woman shall not lay down with woman, is not God's word. I really don't think we should pick and choose scripture to suit our human beliefs. The word, abomination, is very prominently associated with homosexual activities. So, if his quotes are correct, and they are, is the University saying that the Holy Bible is intolerant and discriminatory.
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John Owens
I think that's exactly what they're saying, Jim. "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."
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39husker
it's amazing how many people ignore God. Homosexuality is a sin much like adultery. are we saying if this gentleman is also against adultery and divorce, that he can't be a social worker? so many have lost their ways to brainwashed political correctness. do you all know better than God? it is clearly stated as a sin and we must treat it as such. you liberal bigots would scream bloody murder if a student was kicked out of a theology program for stating their preference to homosexuality excluding them from being clergy. hypovrites
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Minister Krys
It is not his place to judge or publicly condemn. His Facebook post is 'public' not private so it wasn't just to his friends. Sheffield University is a red brick uni so has proper standards of equality to adhere to. I wonder if the latest Gnostic teachings were included in The Bible, if some views expressed ( not thought ) would change. As a social worker here in the U.K, he has to be able to work, without bias from his own views, with anyone and everyone whom comes to him. Could he do that? No judgement here implied, simply an observation.
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John Owens
So, on Facebook, or in public, I should always pretend not to have an opinion about anything?
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Roger Hittle
His views are his as long as he keeps them from interfering with is professional live he should win tbe case. But in this age of intolerance and social media to post things on line is stupid if you know that the uk big brother is watching
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biblical scholar
Christians persecuted AGAIN by liberals! If this young man was saying burn Christians at the stake, he'd probably get promoted to dean of the school!!
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Sam
This is a case that has gone public. However it is not the first time a college or employer has let someone go or not even excepted them. This is 2017, the world is changing and social media is being watched. Words, actions and values count. Youth are often reminded to watch what they post on social media accounts as it could affect their future. Their have been great basketball students denied scholarships becaususe the posted negative opions about blacks or gays. I agree that some posters here are bigoted. This could come back to haunt them in the future, you never know.
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Joseph E Knopick
Yep.
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Kirk
Why are some of these posts calling this guy a bigot and say he's discriminating? I didn't see that he had done anything discriminatory. Simply posting on FB to his friends that he thinks the gay lifestyle is sinful and quoting the Bible is not bigotry, or discriminating. Now, if he refused to help someone, like he would another Christian, as a social worker due to his beliefs, then he should be fired for discrimination, or bigotry due to demonstrated intolerance.
If this guy is a bigot, then so are some of the posters here since they are implying that all Christians inherently discriminate!
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Joseph E Knopick
Well, Kirk, he stands against the common flow. You must comply with the general perception and Political/social correctness. He is a bigot because he expressed an Idea that they do not agree with. Again the Intolerance of the Tolerance front.
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Jim D.
Oh, now that's some dangerous thinking right there. "You must comply with the general perception and Political/social correctness."? Really?
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John Owens
Joseph is doing a good job of telling it like it is. Look at all the hate and bigotry coming from the promoters of "tolerance".
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Roy L. Patterson
Agree 100%
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Rebecca
Good comment
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Joseph E Knopick
Whatever you do, whatever your point of view, whatever your opinion is, whatever your personal beliefs are, are perfectly okay unless you express them, and are contradictory to the common expressed propagandized public social position. In other words keep it to yourself unless it supports our view.
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Joseph E Knopick
This University suspended him because of money. This is a common knee jerk reaction to keep from being sued. simple.
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John Owens
Yes. Well stated.
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Kathleen Baird
If Sheffield University were training him to be an engineer or an accountant, his comments would be hateful, abhorrent and possible grounds for expulsion for not meeting their standards of conduct. But, instead, he CHOSE to study to become a social worker, who is supposed to work with any person who needs compassion and understanding to deal with their life problems. Sheffield absolutely had the right, and the obligation, to not continue giving him an education in a field that would have given Sheffield's seal of approval to inflict his prejudice and hatred on troubled persons when they went to him seeking help at a difficult time in their lives. Good choice, Sheffield!
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James
Can't say it better than that Katherine. Claims of "discrimination against Christians and free speech" are just missing the point.
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Pastor Pete
I think it's just as well he showed his hand when he did, social work is no place for somebody with these beliefs, what if he believed people with a mental illness were possessed by demons and required exorcism? Well done Sheffield.
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John Owens
Yes, since social workers are doing such a wonderful job helping the damaged individuals created by the lack of morality we call liberalism.
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James Pace
He's certainly Free to feel or believe any way he wants... but when you are attending a facility that is supposed to be free of discrimination and you express what could potentially be seen as hate speech, you cannot expect there not to be backlash... and a university, any university, is going to take a very hard line on anything that could potentially make them look at all discriminatory, or in any way supportive of discrimination on their campus.... not to mention that he was a social worker... you cannot express your opinion on anyone's belief, gender, sexual orientation, or any other quality that could possibly be discriminated against...if you do, your career will be very short lived...
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Joseph E Knopick
He is James? That's very true. And yet he was suspended for doing so.
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Brother John
Excellent post Bro James. Love the trademark on "Christian". Bigots spewing their beliefs here may also encounter retorts that are contrary to them, particularly if they've been proselytizing and stating beliefs as indisputable facts.
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Clayton Beardmore
Shame on anyone who stated the university is right - He can take any stance he wants. Free speech (NOT political correctness which is making mamby pambies out of a lot of Americans) is a RIGHT in the United States. Gay marriage was so unheard of in Bible times it is not even mentioned in the Bible, but homosexual activity was and the Bible condemns it as sinful. Sue me!
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Aron100
You may well be right about the United States, but this took place in the UK. We take responsibility for the things we say here.
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John Owens
Even in the UK, men should be allowed and encouraged to have and discuss an opinion. Has anyone bothered to try to prove that it is NOT sinful?
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Bob Anderson
Has anyone bothered to try to prove that there is such a thing as "sin"? Set your own house in order and allow others to do the same.
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John Owens
You are all proving, more and more, that Christians are not the most blatantly intolerant ones. And yes, sin is easily provable. It is anything that causes harm. Next question.
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Dane
You can't become a social worker with the attitude that some of the people you serve are inherently sinful. You're going to cause more harm than good.
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John Owens
Dane. What you said is patently stupid. If the people you serve are druggies, do you not tell them the drugs are harmful? If they have a house full of illegitimate, unloved children, do you not tell them they should prevent pregnancy? If there is domestic abuse, do you not try to prevent it? Totally stupid.
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Dane
Apples and oranges. Everything you mentioned here causes actual, tangible harm; unlike homosexuality, which is harmless.
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John Owens
Again, patently stupid. If it was harmless they wouldn't need social workers. I suppose strictly monogamous homosexuality might not be terribly harmful, assuming neither partner was overly-endowed, but those would not likely be the beneficiaries of the social workers, would they?
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Pastor B Stevens
Everyone is entitled to your own opinion but if you publish it be ready for the back lash . Think long and hard about passing judgment against others . I have noted in recent years many Christians as they claim they get upset some even dangerous should one speak negitivly against their beliefs . Yet they do the same thing to other people's beliefs with vigor and many times anger . Stay out of others business focus on bettering yourself . As far as canning this young man his bitter public judgment is now judging his actions . No matter what a law might say it will not stop free speech .
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Nix
Three very good points!
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Bro. James the Apostate, OSHSF
Just from one perspective, here's another militant Christian™ confusing criticism with persecution. It is not his religion (thinking) that is being criticized, but his religiosity (actions). Now, he is reaping the reward/consequences of his own actions. He's seriously deluded if he truly 'believes' (thinks) people are going to tolerate his self-righteous hate speech - 'firmly held religious beliefs', or not.
To understand his fervor, one must understand fundamentalism and those cults. The organizations encouraging him to pursue legal actions against the school want a public fight. This is about publicity and they want other fundamentalists to relate or see this as Christian™ "persecution", to validate their 'beliefs' - feeding the terrors of the innocent sheeple. (It keeps them in the seats and donating - membership comes with a cost.)
Religion and 'beliefs' are conscious choices, often made in midst of extreme emotional experiences (fear/guilt. Most fundamentalist cult indoctrination is simply religious brain-washing. Memorize, parrot, repent, repeat. Memorize, parrot, repent, repeat. Memorize, parrot, repent ...
When a bigot spews 'beliefs' and expects not to follow the rules of society (or the school) he's delusional if he doesn't expect a public retort and retaliation.
Apparently, no one ever told him that his right to religious beliefs ends where mine begins.
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Joseph E Knopick
One question, how was he militant/? He used Facebook. I don't see him organizing a protest, or marching on to a drag show, or holding a rally with "GD hates Fgs" banners. NO! He just expressed his belief and opinion.
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BLB
Said well my friend.
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Christopher W. Corleone
So Bro James,
So when you said, " Now, he is reaping the reward/consequences of his own actions. He’s seriously deluded if he truly ‘believes’ (thinks) people are going to tolerate his self-righteous hate speech – ‘firmly held religious beliefs’, or not.
In other words your saying when he discussed, The expression that homosexuality is a ‘sin’ as being hate speech? He wasn't jackin on someone who was married, he simply stated his beliefs on the subject matter. He said in his own words, "Ngole wrote on Facebook that gay marriage is “sinful,” But he wasn't condemning the two who were married, just making a religious statement as I would have done. Nothing hateful about that at all.
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Roy L. Patterson
Great comment.
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Rebecca
Either we all have free speech or we don't. I don't agree with his sentiment. I do support his right to say it just as I support everyone's right here to say judgemental things in return. I don't like that either. But you have the right to say it according to the First Amendment. He I didn't threaten or condemn any person. He expressed his belief about the action. It is also considered sinful to lie and steal and murder. Do we now stop speaking out on that because it might make liars, thieves and murders feel uncomfortable? C'mon dear neighbors. Stop taking everything so personally and being so thin skinned. This is all so adolescent. He expressed himself on an open social forum, with no threats or hate speech. I am a member of the Universal Life Church because we "live and let live." Even the ones WE think are wrong...
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videoscenes
God does not condone sin. Sin is Sin. It doesn't matter whether we agree with that or not. It is Gods judgement that matters, and what the Bible says that matters. NOT what is politically correct, or what is tolerated by society. I do NOT agree with he Universities actions. We have Free speech. It does not matter how you define the category of that free speech. Had he made an Islamic statement...I would guess that the backlash would not have been as severe. Yet, in Islamic countries "gays" seem to be persecuted beyond belief!!!! So, that being said...He probably should have weighed what he said against the repercussions. However, FB is a public forum. I would agree that his rights to say what he said are being infringed upon. "Gay Marriage" is not Biblical. However, I will live by my standards, and you can live by yours. I have defended your right to say what you say....you should defend my right to say what I say. Only God will judge where we fall. That being said.....you must temper what you say by how it will be received..and adjust accordingly.
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John Owens
I read hate and name-calling and prejudice all through your little diatribe. YOU are the parrot here.
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Sam
I believe the college did the right thing. Social Workers, like teachers and other professions working with children, youth and adults that are struggling with issues are held to a higher standard.
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Joseph E Knopick
Huh, and he student holds Truth to a higher standard. But, that is not okay with you?
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Barbara Jean Pittman Mack
Higher standard? If they only knew.
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Barbara Jean Pittman Mack
Higher Standard?
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John Owens
How do you consider this a "higher" standard? There is nothing higher about it. They are not struggling with "issues". The are struggling with fake teachers and fake doctrine. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If it is OK for a homosexual to say that homosexuality is OK, then it is OK for anyone to say it is NOT. What don't you understand about that? The only reason you think they did the right thing is because they are reinforcing something YOU believe. You are doing what you are condemning.
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Sharra
I agree with John Owens. Either you have free speech or you don't. You may disagree with a lifestyle, it may even offend you. You may be uncomfortable with even opposite sex individuals displaying open affection in public if they are doing what you feel are too personal to be displayed publicly. Modern man changes his views. Nearing 60 years old, raised Catholic. Some of the teachings damage children life long, such as beating one's child as appropriate. Not for acts of the child but the thoughts of the adults. My great grandmother who was Protestant, saved a news paper from 1919 , front page announces wife of 12 years of age, gives birth to twins. She and her farmer husband, probably 15 of age himself were proud parents. The culture has changed. All we can do is voice our feelings. If popularity is what is acceptable, resulting in culture changes. We should look within deeper to understand why we are so divided. Gods loves all but doesn't condone every act whether the law made by man changes. When you can not speak openly about mans laws which disturb you, you have lost the freedom to speak.
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Chuck
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. What if I think divorce is a great? What if I say slavery is great? What if I say infanticide is great? It's freedom of speech. Right? Now I'm the President of the United States. I say that all babies who have a health or mental disorder should be thrown in the garbage heap. They are a drain on society, and a drain on healthcare . Let's get rid of these individuals, save money, and balance the budget so we can lower taxes. That's free speech. It's what I believe. How do you react to my freedom of speech now?
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John Owens
I just think you're a hysterical free nut. I'm not going to try to get you banned or expelled or fired. You're free to be ignorant. Just be careful where and how loudly, or the wrong person might take it upon themselves to educate you physically. I don't really care what you think or say.
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Natalia
I'm sorry, it is not his place place to judge. I cannot understand the double edged sword that most christians hold. How can anyone say love thy neighbor as you love thy self, then be so discriminating?. The Lord G-d says judgment and vengement is mine. Not our place in my book. All of us have to answer when or pages is opened in the book of life and death on the end. He deserved to be expelled in my opinon(not judging).
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Joseph E Knopick
HE also said that we are to separate and holy, kept unto him. To truly be separate and reserved for him, is intolerance. He also taught us to be wise and discern his will in how we deal with each other. To taught us to be compassionate and be a neighbor, but he also told us to shake off the dust from our feet if his truth is not accepted. To accept others in repentance of their sin. Not just accept any behavior just because we are to love. If you truly love them, you would help them come to repentance and into a life of righteousness. That is how you accept the sinner. True orthodox Christianity, is not tolerant of anything sinful.
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Name (required)PH
Jesus was very clear and even repeated Himself when He commanded His followers not to judge. By calling others sinners, you're judging. You can try to escape the truth by saying that it's really God or the Bible that's judging, but when you're saying or typing the words, you're doing the judging. Only He Who is without sin has the right to point out others' sins. Refraining from judgement isn't accepting sin, it's accepting what Jesus Christ COMMANDED His followers to do. If others seek the Word of God, they will find out for themselves what sin is. Your job is to seek out your own sin. Again, Jesus stressed this repeatedly.
So technically, that man wasn't discriminated against for being a Christian, because what he said isn't Christian. He was being judgmental, which is at odds with being a social worker. As for whether or not the school had the right to kick him out, a private school has the right to kick anyone out for any reason but I think they should refund his tuition for anything he didn't receive credits for, unless they explicitly stated in the contract that he can't say anything against gay marriage or homosexuality while he's a student.
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John Owens
You're obfuscating. Saying something is a sin is not judging, and anyway, Jesus, in another place said, "judge not by appearances, but judge ye rather righteous judgement." Now, when He said, "Judge ye not," that was supposed to be translated, "Condemn ye not."
Any adult MUST have some discernment to function in this world, so judgment is a practical necessity. You judge better cuts of meat at the market, and you judge one brand of peanut butter a better buy than another. You judge one kind of auto to better suit your needs.
The young man judges gay marriage to be sinful. That is his understanding. He didn't say you can't marry someone of the same sex, or even that you should be punished for it. He just said it is sinful. His detractors are ALL being more judgemental than he is, because they are afraid of going against public opinion, so they adopt it as their own, because they are weak and afraid to really think.
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Edmondo Donato
John Owens Well said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, we must be free to think what we want, and say what we think. the answer to speech YOU don't like is MORE speech not less.
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John Owens
Muchísimas gracias, Edmondo.
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Rev. John D. Partin
To whom it may concern, first it was said "Saying something is a sin is not judging" and then it was said "The young man judges gay marriage to be sinful", which is a contradiction in terms and trying to have it both ways. He was judging by saying gay marriage is "sinful", as was just admitted. Some judging or evaluating in life is necessary and unavoidable, such as evaluating cuts of meat at the supermarket. but that can't be just indiscriminately and unreasonably extended to everything that persons who are bigoted against homosexuality or black people or Jews or whomever or whatever else they are bigoted against in order to "justify" it by saying "Well, we're only practicing normal judgment and discrimination here and so what's wrong with that?". You can have all of the opinions about homosexuality's being "immoral" or black or Jewish people's being "inferior" or "subhuman" or against any other people that you like, so long as you don't subject those people to your opinions (not facts!!) about them and they don't have to hear it and just keep all of that garbage to yourself or with other like-"minded" people who want to hear all of that BS, the same as you insist that other people keep their opinions about you to themselves. Then, go right ahead and bigot your ass completely off to yourself for all that I or anyone else will care about that, since you don't have any more sense than to do that!! Freedom of speech has never included hate speech or the right to say just any GD thing to anybody that you feel like saying and there are severe or even fatal consequences to saying some things to some people, as shouting the N word and "I hate black people!" in a black neighborhood, just because you feel like it, will quickly prove to you!! Gay marriage is none of homophobic bigots' business, since it doesn't involve or concern them, except by their poking their noses in where they don't belong, and so they should just keep their big noses out of other people's business and things that don't concern them and keep their stupid GD opinions to themselves!!
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Barbara Jean Pittman Mack
How about if God accepts a person but not the sin of the person. God does not accept any old thing. We as Christians are to love everybody even our enemies. I love my sons but if they rape someone I can't be a mom who supports rape yet I love my son. I love people I just don't support their wrong doings. I don't care what gender people choose, just don't force your business on me. We were born and labeled male or female. That is history but now because of want people choose they want to forcefully change natural history. Men with men and women with women ok do your thing, just please don't force it on me. Changing the name, saying people are not mentally disturb, getting angry because I don't see it your way is wrong. It makes me feel violated and how about my feelings since we are trying to protect feelings.
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John Owens
Natalie, you are not sorry. You are just seriously misguided. Christians don't hold a double-edged sword unless you mean the Word of God. It is not "discriminating" to tell someone they should not indulge in certain behavior because it is wrong. You can argue about whether or not it IS wrong UNLESS you bring the Word of God into it, WHICH YOU DID, when you quoted God. "Not our place"? "He deserved to be expelled in your opinion (NOT JUDGING)?" What is that if it isn't judging? You are judging that he deserved to be expelled because he stated his opinion, which in this instance, directly aligns with the Word of God. He wasn't judging (postulating an opinion about ) the homosexuals. He was opining regarding the physical practices of homosexuality. There is only one Arbiter of good and evil, and that is God. HE said, men should not lie with other men in the way men lie with women, that it is abomination. In fact, I'd just like to know if ANY "holy book" says otherwise. Now if you don't believe in God, or you think Moses was a fake prophet, that is on you, but you are judging this student as surely as you think he is judging. You think tolerance is just a club to beat good people with, saying they aren't really good unless they tolerate evil to the point of encouraging it. Your opinion is worse than having no opinion. You encourage evil while pretending to be good.
Should a homosexual be expelled for calling a heterosexual a "breeder" or a "latent"? No, I'm sure you wouldn't think that. Because you are so misguided. Oh, but I'm not judging. That's just my OPINION.
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Nicholas
He shouldn't be a social worker because to do so you have to maintain a non biased opinion and help all. When he posted his opinion it shows bias and thus he loses creditability to do his job fairly. Just because you are free to say something in America doesn't mean that there are not reprecucions to them. I can swear at my boss, no one is stopping me but I will get fired and that is the reprecusion to my action.
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John Owens
A social worker AUTOMATICALLY has a biased opinion. If they didn't, they wouldn't be doing social work. It is BIAS to think someone NEEDS help. It may also be factual, but it is still biased. In thinking they need your help, you are at the same time thinking you are superior to them because you are IN THE POSITION to render help.
I have a few homosexual friends. I don't think I should preach at them but they know exactly what I think about the activities in which they participate to qualify as homosexuals, and they also know I don't hate them and will not tolerate anyone else mistreating them. I can't counsel someone on how to be a better homosexual per sé, but I can give guidance on universal principles that apply to everyone. I don't have to APPROVE of them to treat them well. Your idea that his having an opinion on an activity disqualifies him is far-fetched. To have NO bias, a person would have to be a complete moron. It is impossible to have no bias. It is easy to pretend to have none, but that just means a person is dishonest, making them LESS qualified than a person with bias.
By your thinking, a fireman would have to APPROVE the activities of everyone he or she rescues. A soldier would have to approve the activities of all his fellow soldiers. A mechanic could not fix an automobile or motorcycle of someone unless he approved of the type and brand of vehicle. A medical professional would have to approve of the lifestyle of all their patients. A pastor would have to approve of all the behavior of all of the attendees at his services.
Think about these things, and you will see that what I am saying is true. Not because I said it, but because it is true. -
Most Reverend
He can be a Christian Social worker, just like there are Christian Counselors who are Social worker's with masters degrees. Priests obtain a Masters in Social work in order to counsel the flock within the laws of their State. Christians are in the social work community but we need more. I have no idea of the Laws in Britain, In the U.S.A. this is a clear violation of The Constitutional First Amendment Freedom of Speech and he must be reinstated and NEVER should have been removed. God's words are never impeachable, God's words are Rejoicing.
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john
there are no words of any god in the bible. and the bible says so.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22
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Name (required)PH
He can be a social worker, but he's not a Christian by definition if he's calling other people sinners. Jesus repeated his command multiple times: Do not judge others. Publicly defying Jesus's repeated order to his followers is anti-Christian. And don't use the excuse "He's not judging, God/Bible is judging" because if you say it, write it or type it that someone besides yourself is sinning, you're the one doing the judging.
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John Owens
What this other John says is patently absurd, and a conclusion at which one can arrive only after a lot of convoluted reasoning. The whole book of Leviticus was given at Mt. Sinai. God, in the burning bush said, "Take off your shoes... I AM that I AM, etc" To know what the Bible says, you don't read what everyone ELSE writes. You read the Bible. It's a big book covering a lot of centuries and events, and not handed down in strict chronological order, so you have to read it many times to get it, but you have to read the BOOK to know what the BOOK actually says. If you read other people's excerpts and arguments, you can be mislead to think it says anything. This guy, John, below, has a right to believe what he wants, and I have the right to tell you he is misguided.
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John Owens
KJV Exodus 20:1-3 ..."And God spoke all these words, saying, 'I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' " I don't know where this other John comes off quoting some wannabe prophet.
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Kevin Appleby
Interesting Natalie, that as a christian you would say what you did. Wasn't Jesus able to love the person, but hate sin? We can love the person, but nowhere does it say in the Bible that we must tolerate sinful behavior. You are correct that we all have to answer for our own actions and along with that is standing up for biblical principals, not being politically correct. God doesn't understanding Political Correctness.
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Debbie
I have a serious problem with anybody who thinks that loving somebody of the same sex is a sin. That said, this guy is a student, not somebody with any authority to make a gay person's life difficult. I think that his support of the bigot Kim Davis, a public servant who refused to do her job, much more troubling than spouting his own venom. Personally, I prefer to know who the bigots are around me. That way I can avoid them. He should be allowed to say what he thinks, without retribution.
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Susan Kaufman
Beautifully said
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Chadwick
If you don't agree with the New World Order you're not allowed to speak. Ask any Liberal Dem.
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John Owens
:) Exactly, Chadwick
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Tim Peddicord
Now you are judging all liberal Democrats of which I am one. I am also one that is a strong supporter of the 1st Amemdment. You can say anything you want as far as I am concerned unless they are 'fighting words" as defined by the SCOTUS. I agree with Bernie Sanders recent remarks about Ann Coulter being allowed to speak at UC Berkely. I have always listened to mutliple points of view so as to have an informed basis upon which to base my own views. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. I understand conservatives Christians reasons for thier views, I just don't agree with them. However, they have every right to their beliefs just as liberals do. Politcal discourse is in the sad shape it is today in part because it turns into personal attack and demonization as exhibited by our current president who exemplifies all that is wrong with political discourse. The University overreacted to this man's views. I do not like it when some liberals act like some conservatives in their effrots to supress dissenting viewpoints.
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John Owens
Good for you, Tim
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John Owens
Except conservatives don't try to suppress dissenting viewpoints. We prefer that people hear them. An open logical discussion favors conservatism over all.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Chadwick, how are all of you conservatives able to speak here and in the rest of the world if you're "not allowed to speak" and why do liberals and Democrats always have to fight with conservatives and neo-Nazis if we have "more power than you do", as you infer or outright claim, and can "keep you from speaking"?! You are talking a logical contradiction and absurdity here!! I haven't ever noticed any of you conservatives being muzzled or unable to say as much as you wanted to about everything---and, really, entirely too GD much all the time!!
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Robert Landis
Romans 1 says it all. We are to love the sinner, but not love their life style. That is consistent with Gods position in Rom. 1.
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John Owens
Robert is correct. Those of you who wish to silence the student are not.
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Ivan
Everyone has a right to an opinion. You say he cannot judge and yet you are judging. We all know what happened to Sodham & Gomarrah and it happened because it was sinful...
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BroMan
I understand how you feel, but it is my opinion that even haters should be free to express their opinions without fear of reprisal. If we push haters into the darkness, it is my opinion, that is when it becomes dangerous. Dangerous because we don't see it and thus forget it exists and also because in their frustration from being pushed into the darkness they eventually become extreme. Of course I find his way of thinking ignorant, hideous and revolting but it's the price to pay in a democracy.
Lastly bringing in the courts is like playing Russian Rowlette and if he wins it starts to set a precedence of more law suits from these types of people.
I would prefer it out in the open where people can make a choice and where we can respond in a caring and loving manner to their hatred.
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Michael
Verses are good for quotes but someone once said to me "Text without context is pretext." Read the chapters completely to understand who is being spoken to. God abhors ALL sin equally and if you are going to judge make sure you do the same with your own sins. The word says we are all sinners. It's easy to judge a sin you don't commit but do you judge your own besetting sins? The disciples prayer tells us "..forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those that trespass against us..". Our style of judgment will be used against us.
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John Owens
That is true, Michael. Heterosexual relations outside of marriage are just as strongly condemned in Scripture as homosexual relations. Plus, not all sins have anything to do with sex. Sometimes they are jealousy, covetousness, being swift to mischief, shedding innocent blood, etc. We are all guilty of something, and if you have broken one commandment, you are guilty of all, so far as the Law is concerned. Then there is, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
However, it is not necessarily judgemental to recite what are some specific sins. I cannot condemn another human to Gehenna fire, knowing that I still have sins of my own of which I am not fully repentant. That does not mean I should not feel free to tell another what is sin and what isn't, to the best of my knowledge. I do. I will. I shall. I should. That is not hate. That is love. Love for God, love for goodness, love for my fellow humans. I suppose the context of how it is done may be the problem, but that is not always true. Often it is the context of how it is received, and I have no control over how another person's mind works. I try to be clear and fair, and NOT judgemental, but honest. My daughter can't ride a motorcycle or shoot a gun well. That is a fact. I do not judge her stupid because of that. I did not teach her those things, so it is MY short-coming that she is grown now, and does not know those things.
Long story short, every person must work out their own salvation, but we must also show our people OUR societal transgressions. That is not condemnation or hate. That is loving concern for our society.
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Chill Draggon
THE QUESTION POSED IS NOT ASKING FOR COMMENTS ABOUT GAYS, SIN, CHRISTIANITY. OR THE BIBLE. IT SIMPLY ASKS WHETHER OR NOT THE UNIVERSITY WAS RIGHT TO EXPEL THE STUDENT. IT IS A QUESTION OF CIVIL RIGHTS.
Isn't a university a place of respectful discourse which acknowledges there are no objective truths. Every subject is debatable. Unfortunately, the lone subject which goes against the grain is religion. Faith, by definition, is the belief in that which cannot be proved. Yet, for many, the words in one's 'holy book' are objective truths. But, if it were so, by definition, all people woud cling to the same 'truths'. The student in question expressed his belief on social media. I don't agree with his posting, but the punishment doesn't seen to fit the crime, especially in a university. I am not minimizing the hurtfulness that the LGBTQ community feels. Certainly, if a person's core beliefs cannot tolerate being labeled a sinner, then the same forum can be used to disagree. The university could have responded solely by forceful expression of its policy of acceptance. By expelling the student, the university staff has denied a founding principle of the university environment and has set a precedent which should be anathema to students, faculty, and alumni.
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cogginbruce
Last that I remember we still had freedom of speech.
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I have been an atheist most of my life and an activist for almost 20 years. While I vehemently disagree with Felix Ngole's position I am appalled that his freedom of speech has been taken from him. Universities are exactly the place for ideas to be presented, analysed, and criticized.