A Christian social worker in the UK says a recent job offer was rescinded after his would-be employer found out about his “very strong views” on homosexuality.
Now he’s legally challenging the withdrawal, arguing that he faced "discrimination, harassment, [and] indirect discrimination” for his religious views. He is seeking “compensation for injury to feelings" in an employment tribunal.
Workplace Promotion
In May of last year, social worker Felix Ngole was offered a position at Touchstone Support, an organization which provides mental health services to the Leeds community. But weeks later, he was sent an email by Touchstone leadership stating they had “unfortunately identified some significant areas for concern” that did not “align with Touchstone Leeds' ethos and values.”
“We are an organization proud to work with the LGBTQ+ community and we pride ourselves for being an inclusive employer," they wrote.
This job withdrawal reportedly came after Touchstone executives found out about Ngole’s involvement in a prior legal case (which longtime readers of this blog might remember). That controversy saw Ngole expelled from the University of Sheffield for writing on his Facebook page that "same-sex marriage is a sin whether we like it or not." He successfully appealed the ban and later graduated.
This time around, the company reportedly invited him to a meeting to discuss his views, where Ngole says they told him they would reconsider the job offer if he would embrace “the promotion of homosexual rights.”
“Every question had an LGBT slant,” he says. “I was asked if I'd use people's correct pronouns and forge partnerships with LGBT support organizations. I kept saying it was no problem.”
“What I cannot do, and you cannot reasonably expect me to do without yourselves being discriminatory, is make my participation in the 'promotion of homosexual rights' a condition of my employment,” he reportedly told them.
A week after the meeting, the job offer was formally rescinded for good, with Touchstone arguing that his views against same-sex marriage would be “upsetting and offensive” to patients, and could worsen their “anxiety and depression.”
Love and Hate
Ngole is now claiming discrimination under the Equality Act, and hopes that an employment tribunal will side with him. The Christian Legal Centre, which is supporting him, claims that leaving the case unchallenged would potentially have grave consequences for Christians in the healthcare field.
“Telling an employee they must 'embrace and promote' homosexuality as a condition of employment sets a dark and troubling precedent” argues Andrea Williams of the Christian Legal Centre. “If left unchallenged it would see Christians who manifest their beliefs barred from working in the NHS.”
One look at Touchstone’s website, however, and it’s clear they’re a very LGBTQ-friendly organization, and some of their outreach seems to assist the LGBTQ community.
Critics argue that it's not fair for clients and patients to receive assistance from a social worker who doesn’t believe they should have the right to marry.
At the heart of the story is one question: is it possible to hold a moral opposition to homosexuality, but not be discriminatory?
What is your reaction? Was the company right to rescind the job offer, or should they have accommodated Ngole's views?
231 comments
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Rev. Kev
Once you put something out there on social media you make it a public statement that can be considered by potential employers. HR offices regularly scan a candidate's social media to see what they say and do.
People are free to hold their personal, religious views. But I am of the opinion that parts of our personal lives should remain just that: personal. Something only for close friends, family or religious peers (depending on the views in question). Especially if such views can be misinterpreted or can cause a problem for people capable of compartmentalizing personal and professional lives. A person can hold certain views but also understand their work life requires that not everything adhere to those views and simply do their job.
Ultimately, if their biases get in the way of effectively performing their duties, they will surface and lead to termination. I've seen my share of people who interviewed well, agreed to the conditions of the job up front, but ended up parting ways when their performance didn't match their promises.
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Michael Holland
Social worker views are moot, there job is to listen and recommend! His license should be revoked and he should seek employment where he does not have contact with people!
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Stephen P Singleton
I’m a retired social worker and I’m afraid I have to agree with these replies that say “leave your religion (and your politics) at home. Active Listening. Remember that? I spent over 40yrs working with “at risk” youth, juvenile offenders and special needs kids. I was always being asked, “Well, wouldn’t you do…””What do you believe?” “Do you believe in God?” This is a version of every answer: (Dude!) (yeah, I used Dude) It’s not what I believe. What do YOU believe? Boy, what great discussions that would start. But I was adamant that my own personal beliefs would not come out in words. My absolute beliefs about inclusion and equality; fairness, mutual respect; understanding and compassion—I wanted them to SEE those beliefs in ACTION. And if we brought those things out in dialogues, I made them identify the concepts talk about their beliefs; why those beliefs; why have any beliefs? What the heck IS belief? I didn’t want my clients talking about what I think, I wanted them to identify and wrestle with THEIR thoughts, feelings and issues. I saw my job as Guide, not Preacher. (Guess I’ve done enough preaching for one post 🤣) Namaste❤️
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Rev Mark D
When you're on somebody else's time (employer's), it is not your own. Personal beliefs are not relevant (and are not appropriate) to disclose or betray... and there is no place for religious belief or proselytizing or politics either, for the same reason.
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Donna Lynne Judalet
I disagree with that statement.
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Rev Mark D
You didn't elaborate or even say what you meant by "that." Which part? How come?
So you believe you should be paid to practice or speak (or both) for your religious beliefs instead of doing the job you were hired to do with the money used to hire you? Or in what context is it that you disagree, all you did was say you disagreed with "that," so what "that" did you object to, and more interestingly, why?
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Pastor Jim
Well said! ...and good on you!
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Donna Lynne Judalet
Just because you have the beliefs, you don't have to project the onto the people you are counseling. You don't leave your values or beliefs at home, you just don't project them to those you are taking care of.
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Pastor George Day
Donna Lynne Judalet, very well said.
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Rev Mark D
What I meant was you are paid for your time and behavior, not your beliefs. All that can be expected of you is that you do the job ask for you to do, and don't break the law or harm your employer or meet your personal needs at the expense of your employer.
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Gary Leu
As a mental health professional he doesn't get to have a personal opinion when he's working with clients either directly or indirectly. He only gets to have a professional opinion which is guided by ethical standards and best practice guidelines. Ethical standards also require that counselors disclose their biases, own them, and refer elsewhere. So, even if he goes to work and doesn't overtly make his bias an issue, he is still required to disclose that his personal opinion might somehow color his thinking away from best pratcice and, again, refer to another provider. He would need to disclose this to every client, because the client needs to be free to be able to talk about what they need to. Even if it's not the initail identified problem, it might come up. I would not allow him to work with me. My impression of this guy is that he is less interested in this job and doing his best for clients and more interested in using religion to reject, hate, and control people's sex lives while keeping the stick up his butt and ignoring the mote in his own eye.
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Rev Mark D
Well since professional ethics and boundaries is definitely taught prior to licensing and probably at great length during academic preparation as well, doesn't it seem you're engaging in a little bit of presumed guilty until proven innocent. Is that how they do it in the uk?
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Rev Mark D
You said he doesn't get to have a personal opinion about his clientele. That's true.
It also holds that the employer doesn't get to have a personal opinion about him and his judgment in doing his work or is capability in knowing what he can and can't do and what he can and can't say. Employer doesn't get to determine as a condition of employment what he can and can't think.
More than that is political and prejudicial. From both sides. Neither side may cross that line and expectation as a condition of employment. And "condition of employment" was the question and is the question. And since he hadn't yet been employed, you couldn't have failed to meet the expectations as a condition of employment. So any determination that it can't be employed has to be prejudicial.
Suppose instead the issue was that he is a member of the conservative party. What then? And in fact isn't the lack of an actual condition of employment being broken, to saying the employer's position is actually a political one, thoughts on the basis of politics as the offer of employment been rescinded?
Remember the applicants "offense" was a stateed thought, not a behavior. The withdrawal of the employment offer, which had already been made, was a prediction, and anticipation, not an event based on him doing anything or saying anything as an employee.
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Gary Leu
From what I know about the case, I think Touchstone behaved responsibly with concern for the welfair of their patients. Touchstone specifically promotes itself as being LGBTQ+ freindly. Ngole has publicly and clearly expressed his opposition regarding same-sex marriage and homosexuality. Touchstone brough him back to interview him about these "religous" beliefs and were not satisfied. If he had been hired, I think it would put Touchstone at risk. If Ngole behaved unethically causing an LGBTQ+ client distress then I can easily see Touchstone being at fault because this is something that any reasonable person could have expected given the information. A synogoue is not required to hire a well known anti-semite to provide emotional support to its members either.
I find the whole thing suspicious. Why would someone with Ngole's opinions even want to work at Touchstone?
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Pastor George Day
That's a very good point, Gary Leu! Live and let live!
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Rev Mark D
That wouldn't pass legal muster in the United states. Touchstone would be sued for a prejudicial act, presuming a thought to be guilty and thereby without an overt act still denying him employment he might have a right to compete for. Just because of bullet you have a belief does not put your employer at risk. There would have to be some legitimate qualification basis for not hiring him, like having someone more qualified to hire instead. Of course the employer would have to state that the withholding of an offer was due to their prejudice, which no intelligent employer whatever do. Nor, because of liability, in the United States would an employer really want to know an employee's opinion that might, if the employer heard it and then offered employment, would make the employer liable for misconduct in that direction by the employee. It just wouldn't fly. In fact it hasn't flown. Plenty of cases about such things on record. And for the same reason professional ethics, at least in the us, in most such professions, do not require that the applicant make full confession like he is in Catholic Church about every little thing, thought, prejudice. Maybe some people here have a different idea or their own unique self-created idea about ethics like somebody above said. Having been licensed in several of those professions, I'm familiar with the ethics involved in those professions and most of them don't say your employer is your preordained confessor for you to make premature confessions that telegraph a risk of liability on the employer. It just isn't done. In fact it would be pretty stupid.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D That makes so much sense!
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
Prior to joining the ULC Community, I retired from the Health Care industry after 30+ years. Be it physical or mental, your first and only obligation is to the PATIENT. When you come to work you check your believes and personal problems at the door. They will still be there when you leave.
Again - separation of church and state also applies to the work place. Especially when it comes to someone's physical and mental well being. A person who has mental challenges does NOT need the added stress of being judged by the person that is supposed to be helping them. I believe that is against the Hippocratic Oath - DO NO HARM!!!!
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Paul Johnson
Where and why does the statement "seperation of church and state" come from This is nothing but a trick to confuse people. Church and State is not envolved. Of course if you were not questioned about your thinking or feelings toward what they were expecting you to do forfeit morals and rights then I think she has a good case. I don't think when you go to work for someone that you have to abandon you faith are your morals. Most of what has been said people afraid to take a stand the LGBTQ+ it doesn't seem like they want her around. Never wants to take a step back because most of the time it has to be a certain way are so it seems in most situations., It looks like it maybe a good time for both sides to step back and treat each other like human beings and drop the pride issue of always having to be right. Pride is what is destroying our nation and the world. Pride seperates us from God whether or not we want to admit it.
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Daniel Gray
NO SUCH THING as Separation of Church and state. And if you want to believe there is then please do us all a favor and show exactly where in the Constitution or any amendment that these words specifically appear.
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Gary James Thomas Garrett
First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" - So why do Christians think their particular "morals" should be law?
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Daniel Gray
Same reason the other religions and Atheists and Humanists think they can try and force religions that dont agree with them to abide by what they want instead of what the Constitution says. NOTHING you or anyone else says can force a person to violate their religion nor can you pass a law demanding same. And you do know this "christian as you call it" rule was put into effect by the founding fathers, so if they were not christian, then why base the Constitution on Cherokee and Christian religion laws?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Is anybody forcing you to have an abortion? Is anybody forcing you to become transgender? Is anybody forcing you to marry a gay person? Is anybody putting up signs to keep out the religious? Is anybody telling you how to raise your children?
Your victimhood complex is out of control - and wholly PROJECTED.
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Daniel Gray
Ok then WHY are people like you trying to force people who dont believe in this to pay for it via medicare or medicade? You do know that its a federal felony to do that under the Hyde Amendment..or are you here just trying to use smoke and mirrors as you usually do?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Here is why you believe what you do about abortion:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181629
Here is why you should rethink it:
https://freakonomics.com/2005/05/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/
And if you really don't think conservatives are that gullible:
https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/
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Daniel Gray
Nope sorry, first links comes from a biased site so its not worth mentioning. It would be IF you got it from a non biased site but you didnt.
Your second link comes from Steven D. Levitt, a well known left winger and pro abortionist from the very biased University of Chicago. Oh and BTW you forgot to mention that he is an economist, not a criminologist. So using him would be like asking a plumber to do brain surgery.
And your last link shows utter ignorance by the people who put it out and the fools who wrote it. The NIH which is Englands/Scotlands/Irelands health care system (three whole countries and more people then has ever went to Yale or heard of it and are actual doctors, not educators) all say this fake study is exactly that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10043280/ clearly shows that the major majority of the deaths from the covid shot came from the ones who actually received it and the boosters. This link to the study clearly shows that the deaths from heart problems came from the covid shot https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9392553/ And this link clearly shows that people can STILL die from covid even after receiving the shot. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9865400/
See how easy it was to destroy your whole post
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Nope sorry, All your links come from a biased sites so its not worth mentioning. It would be IF you got it from a non biased site but you didnt.
See how easy it is be full of BS like you.
And just to be clear, you literally police yourself to ONLY accept approved right-wing information. It is truly a dream fulfilled for your propagandist handlers.
I would discuss Covid with you, but I already read the propaganda, so there's really no point, is there.
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Daniel Gray
So I guess that since the actual medical doctors are calling you a liar and the rest of us not accepting economists as factual sources...you are now throwing a tantrum?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Notice how you always need to insult and demean, to subjugate and dominate.
it's not about facts or truth to you. It's about ego and 'control'.
And I don't have time to teach you about how statistics and facts work. Frankly, you really are looking like a lost cause.
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Daniel Gray
Notice how I always use facts to show your ignorance? And its pretty funny that you are claiming that I am insulting when I use facts and then you go and call names and whine when reality does not fit your agenda
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Your statement that you use "facts" is a LIE.
You cherry pick, you brow beat, you insult, you insinuate - you do ANYTHING to try to WIN - because the truth is the truth means nothing to you - just like most conservatives.
You just want to be in control.
It's always about power to the weak.
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Daniel Gray
No I state facts Kenny and its no skin off my nose that you cannot and refuse to accept facts and logic and then whine when you are proved wrong
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Please point to where you state facts.
Please point to where I refuse to accept facts and logic.
Please point to where I whine that I am proved wrong.
That anybody else's problem is no skin off your nose is abundantly self-evident.
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Daniel Gray
simple Kenny, I post the links backing up what I say from independent sources, unlike the biased sources you try and claim
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson, I couldn't agree more. Conservatives sometimes really swap happiness for victory!
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray, your links were very hard to follow and trying to get through gave me a headache!
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Daniel Gray
At least I do post links. if you cant follow them then that seems to be a personal problem
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Rev Mark D
Well gary, to answer your question (which I quite like), such Christians wouldn't, unless they were hypocrites or stupid or dishonest, or had personal boundary problems of a very serious nature, or had a conquistadorial, imperialistic mindset.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Good! Social workers should be free from hate & discrimination. This should happen more often.
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Canadian Yankee
It really is very simple. If your religion prevents you from doing the job the employer is offering then that should be grounds for not hiring. Just if you were hired to shoe horses and you did not know how you are not qualified.
I don't see this as a god issue but rather a capability to do the job issue. If you can not do the job you are gone.
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Rev Mark D
Well in that case no Muslim can ever work in a restaurant that cooks and serves pork or serves alcohol. So protect those muslims, I suppose you would have the employer institute protections, including signs such as Muslims should not apply and Muslims may not work here... Because there is no way they could not avoid at least some semblance even microscopically of some bit of pork meat fat juice or whatever passing into their nose and pass their lips even though they might try hard to prevent it, scents alone being actual physical molecules of the animal, and even the smell of alcohol being the same, bits of alcohol born in the air and into your nose, thus entering your body. So who's responsibility then would it be to effect the disqualification, the employer, who should then intrude and inquire as to the person's religion, or the applicant to practice properly the requirements of his religion and not even apply once he or she knew that alcohol or pork is served? How would you resolve that, and stay within the civil and criminal law? If such a hiring happened then, who would be at fault, and what would you propose the penalty to be?
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Canadian Yankee
Have someone read this to you. "If you can't do the job you were hired to do then don't apply for the job."
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Why would he want to work for an organization that openly offers sevices to the LGBTQ+ community if he finds their existence so objectionable? It's like a vegan applying to work in an abattoir.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Mike Eggleston, maybe he wanted to win their souls?
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Catherine
No doubt U.K. laws differ somewhat from the U.S., however, wouldn't someone who made clear "strongly opposing views" to a potential employer before the possibility of being hired, likely be a pot stirrer?
Isn't it common practice to keep strong views to one's self for the sake of gaining or keeping employment?
Is the workplace intended to be a soapbox for personal interests?
Bah.
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Rev Mark D
Catherine, plenty of potstirrers around explicitly intending to challenge situations and laws they don't like, exactly in order to create the challenge to effect the law. Happens all the time, such a person is known as an activist, and activism is frequently organized. For instance, the famous civil disobedience of not sitting in the back of the bus is it planned political legal maneuver as part of a step planned attempt to challenge what was considered an unjust law. That's a pretty famous One, there are many many such organized tactics and strategies intentionally engaged decidedly intentional campaigns. That's actually part of how democracy works by design.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin, that would be the case in the UK. I'm not sure about the US employment laws.
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Colleen McAllister
Since the organization is openly LGBTQ+ supportive and he knew that I see no problem with them rescinding the job offer. It is not because of his religious but against his personal belief. Substitute divorce for LGBTQ+ and it would be the same. Of this man views LGBTQ+ people so negatively then how could he treat or service them?
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Paul Johnson
Why have we as people of all walks of life changed so in the last 50 years, At one time it looked like we had true men of faith not denoniination that we seemed to honor God and understood that to reproduce can not be achieved unless there is a man and a woman. I may be living in another time but none of this that is happening makes any sense to me. I know I may be a little old fashion something to me just seems to be mixed up. Why would you want to do things that really makes no sense and want to take someones freedom and you don't want to give up any of your freedom? As they would say "Come On Man".
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ServantOfJudgement
Paul,
Last night I read in Corinthians that to the unbeliever the gospel is foolishness and in response to this, God will make foolishness of man's wisdom. What do we see now? We see unbelievers mock believers over biblical treatment of women and we see educated professionals unable to define a woman. We see the bible tells us to be good stewards over the planet and we see Africa being strip mined to save Africa from climate disaster. We see the bible mocked for its absurdity and we see global elites burn 25,000 pounds of jet fuel on their way to a conference to save the planet from pollution. Ahhh yes, God has made good on his word for the wisdom of man is folly and foolishness.
I think it's hilarious that a female Supreme Court Justice has no idea of what a woman is. God is one funny guy!-
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Conservatives are very fond of asking liberals to define what a woman is. This makes for brilliant PR, because to liberals sex and gender are a complex and multilayered issue, based on science. To conservatives however, as with most things, it is a very simple issue. To conservatives, a woman is a uterus. Just a uterus. This establishes how conservatives look at all gender and reproduction issues. In the conservative worldview, a uterus receives man's seed and nurtures the young. This is opposed to the man's role in the conservative worldview, which is that of sower, provider, and protector. To conservatives, this establishes the subservience of women and the superiority of men, and because they think this, they call it "Natural Law". This is why in the conservative worldview gender divergence is "against nature", and why they feel it is their right to establish rights above the rights of women. This is why conservatives find gender rights and equality abhorrent. That's the brutal truth.
To conservatives, the universe and everything in it is just and only whatever they think it is, and anything outside of their worldview simply doesn't exist to them or is seen as a disease or deformity. Nobody is making them marry a trans woman, or abort their children, or change their pronouns, but such is their fear and hysteria that people are breaking 'the laws of nature' as they see it, that they feel compelled to impose their views and decisions on everybody else. They literally see anything else as insanity because nothing else makes any sense to them, and in fact they continuously demonstrate a reluctance or incapacity to understand anything but their small-minded worldview - and then project their incapacity on everyone else.
This is the conservative mentality.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Rev Mark D
So kenneth, even assuming that any of what you have said is true, which I think is as extreme as what you see and say conservatives are, who's view gets to actually prevail an affairs of society and law, liberals or conservatives? What's the question that must be answered now and every day.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Hello Rev Mark D.
Thank you for your great question.
For the answer I feel we need turn no further than that unquestioned authority of popular consensus, the dictionary.
What is a conservative?
con·serv·a·tive [kənˈsərvədiv] ADJECTIVE "averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values"
Notice it doesn't say what those values are, only that they are held because of "tradition". Similarly, why is a conservative "averse to change"? Obviously, because it is change.
What is a liberal?
lib·er·al [ˈlib(ə)rəl] ADJECTIVE "willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas"
Diversity. Respect. Innovation. Do you see a pattern?
Now I'm not saying a little conservatism isn't a good thing, but I am saying this makes it perfectly clear why it took modern humans 150,000 years to stop living in caves.
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Russel A. Kester
Ok, Kenneth, that was pretty good. I'll have to remember to use it over Thanksgiving with some 'fun' family members.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Are you conservative?
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Daniel Gray
yet even more BS from you.
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Lionheart
You’re right! Biden and son, and Harris, are the epitome of sharp minded brilliance that everyone respects. 🤭🤣🤪
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
In your dreams......or are you not watching where even the DNC is saying that over 70% of the Democrats dont want Biden to run again. Now to be fair 49% of the GOP does not want Trump to run again either. But with all the trouble heading down the pike at Biden and Hunter and Pelosi, only a fool would think they are"sharp" And Lion, no matter what you pretend to be, you do not give me a reason to think you are a fool.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
How about the trouble Trump is running into?? Looks much worse to me than any Bidenesque bilgewater. You do know that Fox is an entertainment channel, not a news site, right? Looks to me like Trump has a severe personality disorder. I did not like him back in his "reality TV" days, as he was rude, crude and unattractive. And his obsession with his own ego is disheartening.
People seem to be freaking out about Biden's age, which is close to Trump's. They are 3.5 years apart, not a huge difference. So they are both old guys. But apparently math skills are lacking among the general population.
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Daniel Gray
Never said he wasnt now did I? But the point I guess is that Biden has and is showing signs of dementia according to the former WH Physician. And do you really want someone in the WH who falls on a daily basis, and then comes out of AF1 proudly claiming that he just had someone wipe his rear for him? I really dont care who you are, if you are that senile (democrat OR republican) I dont want you near the football or trying to make or insist on a law.
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Lionheart
I'm glad you caught my sarcasm. 🤭
I think the reason everyone is holding back from Biden family lawsuits is because few want Harris to become President, which is totally understandable 🤷🏼
🦁♥️
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
That's a pretty powerful blanket statement. I'm sure there are conservatives like that, I haven't met one though, at least it wasn't obvious they were that way. I think conservatives ask that question, what's a woman, for a few reasons. It's amusing to them to see educated people that have painted themselves into a corner deal with the fragile reality they're subjecting us all to. When a woman can't answer what a woman is it shows everyone the pure folly half our leaders are engaging in. Conservatives enjoy trapping the illogical with their own version of strange logic. They are stunned that the left will burn cities for woman's rights only to demand men compete with women in sports to take their trophies and scholarships. This is bizarre and similar if not identical to insanity. This is and always will be an impass between the conservative and liberal philosophies.
For what it's worth, my wife legally owns everything we own. She can kick me and take it all with zero resistance from me. She knows I trust her, thats important. I liked how the native Americans did it that way and it just felt right to do it that way. How cool that I read the bible 20 years later and found that's how God wants it. She is my soul mate and God literally moved heaven and earth(if you believe the bible)to arrange our meeting 27 years ago, way before I knew god. I will do anything for her and she likewise for me. We support one another in the things we do and dreams we have. I can safely say my wife is not my breeding module, rather my dream of a brighter future. Picture in your mind two majestic oaks growing in a tall grass savanna. The oak trees aren't so close that they choke each other out but close enough that the leaves will mingle as long as they both stand. This is a snapshot of my marriage to my lady. We are ourselves together as one.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You're absolutely right SOJ - conservatives have an impenetrable blind spot when it comes to themselves. For example, even after all the posts you've made here disparaging the LGBTQ and liberal thought, you decide to take the sympathy angle for yourself and your relationship while simultaneously echoing my points about the conservative mentality, further spreading right-wing propaganda, and declining to correct any of my points by, for example, defining a woman yourself.
Amazing.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
You said conservatives think of women as a uterus and that's all. I corrected your point by giving a snapshot of my relationship with a woman. Not only did I never describe her as my uterus, I contradicted your claim by saying she's not my breeding module aka uterus. In fact, reproduction was not mentioned at all. I didn't spread any propaganda, I shared details my relationship. If you see my choice in a lifestyle as propaganda for the machine then I don't think we're communicating very well at all. I answered you and you're wrong.
We all know what a woman is, you do and I do. Everyone reading this knows what a woman is. My children know what a woman is, my animals know what a woman is and my entire race knows what a woman is. There are those that like to defy what they know, but they still know. Anything, I mean anything that ever says a man is a woman is pure and absolute folly. This is what God meant when he said he will confuse those that hate him with their own wisdom. Many of those that hate God don't think they know what a woman is, even though they do.
God has a good sense of humor, of that I have no doubt. See how he toys with man's prideful reason? -
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The consrvative dictionary must be comicbook thin. Next to each word the definition is just the word repeated.
Woman: A woman is a woman.
Chair: A chair is a chair.
Dog: A dog is a dog.
That's intellectual dishonesty to the point of hypocritcal mendacity - because in the same conversation you DEMAND liberals NAME what a woman is, and conservatives aren't backing down, are they!? "We know what a woman is - but you have to tell us!" Self-serving much??
I could point to Dylan Mulvaney, and you would instantly just whip out that anti-intellectual conservative hatchet of "No it isn't!" No reason given, and you would see no need for a reason, conservative "strange logic" indeed - more like hypocritical willful self-serving ignorance - and then you accuse liberals of a "fragile reality," which IS another right-wing propaganda trope, repeated until all the parrots are squawking it.
NO, SOJ, that's NOT good enough. Plenty of people have great LOVING SEXUAL LIFE relationships with trans women - but conservatives arbitrarily decide that only THEIR relationships count, because they 'believe' the LGBTQ have COOTIES, so then work zealously to IMPOSE that decision on everybody else, JUST as you are doing here - even though trans relationships have NO EFFECT ON YOU WHATSOEVER.
It's HATE and BIGOTRY and PREJUDICE and it is UNJUST, no matter how you try to dress it up and sanctify it as "God's Wisdom". That's just social intimidation and bullying while hiding behind your God The Bible, that's ALL that is, and that's all it will ever be, and anybody of any real empathic morality sees right through you and your bigoted God The Bible.
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Daniel Gray
No Kenny its fact and since it goes against your world view, then you refuse to accept it. You seemingly cant see the forest for the trees.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement
Couldn't the same happen between two men or two women?
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Rev Mark D
Hey Kenneth lake sanderson, I just now noticed your nature journal reference, https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a. Sorry I missed it before, I'm going to go look it up and read it. Always like a good reference.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
All these variations between male and female genders are classified as disorders. I happen to be non-binary because I have gender dysphoria, but I still believe that male and female genders are the pillars of society. Because I have a disorder doesn't mean I have to normalize it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
PGD - you are misunderstanding what a disorder is.
Gender dysphoria means your gender does not match your physical sex. It is NOT a mental defect, it is a mental "distress" with a physiological treatment.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/transgender-facts/art-20266812
Having three arms is generally considered a physical defect, and similarly is treated with surgery, largely because of social stigma. If everyone had three arms it wouldn't be a problem. If people didn't care how many arms people had it wouldn't be a problem.
A third arm, by itself, hurts nobody. Gender dysphoria hurts nobody else, but is a medical condition because of the personal distress it causes. People who look down on difference are only proclaiming themselves superior. It is the basis of all prejudice. It is judgement from the "normies" for the purpose looking down on others.
Look around you. Nature loves diversity. Without it, life never would have evolved beyond scum and eventually crawled out of the sea.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
WOW! You went to such lengths trying to convince me of what??
Now interestingly, may I get to the point... Are you gender dysphoric or transgender? Yes No?
If yes, your post makes sense. If not, it makes me wonder what your problem is with the technical word 'disorder' - which is used by myself from a theological stand, given we are a church.
I am, transgender female - I identify as woman but I am biologically male. I normally say I'm non-binary, because I prefer that term: I have a woman living me that I like quite a lot and I express my outlook to let her out a bit.
I have no problem saying this is a disorder because, in my theological view of things, binary man and woman is the standard.
You can disagree - but please don't try to teach me using a Google link. A theology degree would be a better option, given I'm a scholar :-)
Shavua Tov!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ ServantOfJudgement How do you expect to have a female Supreme Court justice to have an idea what a women is when God doesn’t even know. Maybe you are smarter than God and a female Supreme Court justice and can tell us what a women it?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Conservative Christian biases have no place in the work space. All they do is cause misery at the expense of people’s civil liberties.
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Daniel Gray
and all you do is try and cause misery in violation of the Constitutions 1st Amendment, so whats your point?
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Robert James Ruhnke
Keeping conservatives from pushing their outdated Christian views down my throat is my right, under the first amendment.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws that regulate an establishment of religion, or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.
You’re free to be Christians, Gray. You’re not free to silence me with your religion. As you so often try to do.
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Daniel Gray
No your right is to refuse to listen, nothing more. Get it right the next time
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Daniel Gray
Oh and who says they are outdated? Seem the law is based on them so you have no authority to claim anything
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Robert James Ruhnke
Wrong. My right is to defend myself and be defended under our constitution from Christian fascism. Conservative Christians should just take the no and move on. They don’t.
Christianity was outdated the minute humanity discovered that it was not the center of our universe or reality. To be fair, you’re right, Christianity is more than just outdated, it’s obsolete. The founders wanted nothing to do with Christianity. It’s not their fault those who came next were a bunch o mindless zealots who exploited a good thing. As always. You’re plain wrong, Gray. Someday you’ll get it. As for now, you’ve no understanding of what’s right.
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Daniel Gray
WRONG yet again Robert. Your "right" to defend yourself under US (state and federal) laws only apply in the following two instances.
If someone is slandering you personally then you have the right to defend your name, nothing more.
in Castle Doctrine states if someone is physically attacking you, then you have the right to defend yourself even if it costs the other person their life and you are legally protected from any form of lawsuits no matter if its from a friend or family. Now in non castle doctrine states you are required to "back away or retreat" even if doing so is going to cause you harm.
If you cant fit your actions into either of these two instances, then you are more then likely to be charged.
And it seems I and more understanding of whats right and legal then you have ever shown yourself to be.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So true RJR.
Why are there two testaments, the old and the new?
Their theologians state that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and transcendent, meaning all-knowing, all-powerful, and exists beyond time and space.
That's great - but nobody seems to understand what that actually implies. The Gods depicted in the two testaments are vastly different - are they suggesting that God changed?
It's been two millennia since the last update. It's time for V1 and V2 to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's time for a 'testament' that works FOR humanity.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Well, I guess Mr. Ruhnke does.
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Aron Mark Doherty
This is the UK, your precious constitution has absolutely no relevance to this article Daniel, though the UK does have conservative Christian’s they don’t hold the UK to ransom as they do in the US.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
We were asked to comment on the situation, not its national origin. I don't see where application of US constitutional concepts is irrelevant. What if this were to have happened in the US? Almost everyone seems to be addressing this situation in light of its application in the US, and I see nothing wrong with that. It's loosely comparable to the wedding cake story currently in the news and the right of a proprietor (or lack thereof) to refuse to serve a member of a group of which he or she does not approve. As a former small business owner, I would have made clothes for the devil herself (I was a dressmaker), as the point of being in biz was to make money--capitalism at its finest. Fortunately Sataness never showed up.
If I were an executive of the social-work company who almost hired the protagonist in the original story here, I would seriously wonder why said protagonist even bothered to apply. A setup to make a lame point? Or what??
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Daniel Gray
So then why are you here complaining?
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Aron Mark Doherty
Complaining about what? The fact the US has allowed conservative Christian’s to all but over throw democracy? Or perhaps the fact that you consistently attempt to hijack people’s posts and try to twist their words around in the hope you can comment and will somehow appear to speak with authority?
All you really display is willful ignorance in every subject you comment on. You live in a bloody minded, petulant bubble of your own making. It’s about you needing attention to feel relevant. I have a twelve year old niece that behaves exactly the way you do but she will grow out of it…..I fear you never have and never will.
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry but completely wrong/ Did you fail government in school? We are not and never have been a democracy, we are and always have been a republic for the last 240+ years. So maybe you should educate yourself before speaking?
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray
Why are you saying the US isn't a democracy? I'm not sure I follow your logic.
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Daniel Gray
Because it isnt. While often mis-categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States.
The Constitution establishes a federal republic form of government. That is, we have an indivisible union of 50 sovereign States. It is a democracy because people govern themselves. It is representative because people choose elected officials by free and secret ballot. www.house.gov
https://www.standrewslawreview.com/post/is-the-united-states-a-constitutional-republic
https://www.civics101podcast.org/civics-101-episodes/are-we-a-democracy
Heck even the WaPo says we are a republic
even foreign governments know that we are a Republic and always have been http://lpmpaceh.kemdikbud.go.id/?p=2445
Is this enough proof for you or do you want more? Even Washington/Jefferson and Franklin say we are a republic in their papers. Remember the statement of Franklin when he was asked what kind of Government we have been given, and the reply was "A Republic Madam, that is if you can keep it" Now say the pledge and stop when you get to the phrase "and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands."
Understand now?
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Pastor George Day
Thank you, Daniel Gray.
I'm not American, and this is the first time I come across this. I would have thought of the US as a big democracy, but you have given an expanded explanation to claim it isn't.
It really isn't my field of expertise, so I accept that.
Shavua Tov :-)
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Daniel Gray
בבקשה. אני שמח שהצלחתי להקנות לך גרעין קטן של ידע.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray :-)
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Pastor George Day
Aron Mark Doherty
Where in the UK are you based? Do you use your ULC ordination license here?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Every four years, whenever there’s a presidential election, the GOP (now controlled by White Christian Nationalists) drags out the same wedge-issues (abortion, hate the gays, keep females pregnant, and at home, contempt for socialism & the teaching of liberal arts in college) in its ongoing efforts, to keep marginalized voters voting for the GOP.
Until marginalized Blacks, Whites, and identifiable ethnic groups— are able to support the same Union-supporting candidates (who also support reproductive rights, and keeping guns away from fascists) the plutocratic GOP can still realistically elect the USA’s president.
It appears that USA fascism is inevitable.
Christianity indeed.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Yes, a possible answer to "What would Jesus do"? Why are so many intolerant present-day Christians not looking at the Beatitudes and busying themselves with feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., etc. instead of obsessing about who is screwing whom? Seems to me they are mostly running around pointing fingers at others who do espouse the New Testament values.
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ServantOfJudgement
You might be right, the setting president just tried to force Americans to inject a mediocre, potentially lethal medication that didn't medicate. It enriched the pharma corps nicely. Pressed by state media outlets. Such obvious violations of personal freedom and overstep of authority lead one to declare you correct William. We are headed for fascism, thank God we can at least see it coming, well some of us see it.....
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Still gulping the firehose of right-wing propaganda I see.
You're not alone.
https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/
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Daniel Gray
still drinking from the liquid semi carriers of left wing bs I see.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You seem to be implying I am believing lies DG. Do you have any proof of that?
Yale is not a media or "news" site, it is a prestigious school founded in 1701. It performed the study, and it's name and reputation stands behind every word of it.
by contrast, you present nothing but condescension and vitriol. Keep up the good work. I'm sure a lot of people were very impressed.
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Daniel Gray
Sure
https://www.biasly.com/sources/yale-daily-news-bias-rating/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/yaleglobal-online-bias-credibility-rating/
https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Justice-Department-finds-Yale-biased-against-15482269.php
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-finds-yale-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-and-whites-undergraduate
That enough to show that Yale is not a source to be trusted and is biased and slightly racist? And yet you constantly try and use them as a valid trustworthy source?
Sorry Kenny but you really should not be asking questions and asking for proof of or about items that will humiliate you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Says the guy who worships the bible.
But I see you largely use right-wing approved web sites. Gee, I wonder who wants to discredit Yale?
You are dishonest to the core DG.
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Daniel Gray
says the guy who gets caught in lies every time he opens his mouth
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
No, you IMAGINE I am caught up in lies and then you construct a narrative that fits your purpose, just like everything you believe in.
Notice how you always need to insult and demean, to subjugate and dominate.
it's not about facts or truth to you. It's about ego and 'control'.
You seriously need to grow up DG, and learn how propaganda and manipulation work. I already know - that's why we have entirely different views on things.
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Daniel Gray
No kenny, I KNOW you are caught up in lies, there is a difference. Unlike you I am able to show that your claims are BS and when I do then you get very unhappy and start throwing a tantrum. But then again what else should anyone expect from you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Listen to you - so full of certainty and self-importance. Delusional, just like your other beliefs.
You are only fooling yourself.
Yes, yes - tell me all about it.
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Daniel Gray
No, the fact remains I give you validated links to back up my statements. You on the other hand do no such thing and in fact try and make claims of me saying something I never did and when I challenge you to prove it, you just end up throwing yet another tantrum.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Validated links? You challenge me? Well why didn't you say so?
Just remember - you asked for it.
First link - Biasly. This link shows the "Media bias" rating for the Yale Daily News. This shows the YDN at a rating or "-8", meaning slightly left leaning.
Okay - first of all the link I provided was not from the YDN. It was an actual peer reviewed scientific paper, so is only tangentially related, at best.
But whatever - how about we check out YOUR news source? Fox News rating? +58. https://www.biasly.com/sources/fox-news-bias-rating/
Second link - mediabiadfactcheck. This link shows the "factual reporting" rating as "high". Again, the only description I could find for the site rated was "provides a comprehensive directory for the myriad of internationally oriented programs at Yale" which has WHAT? to do with their peer reviewed articles?
But again, let's check up on what the same "media bias site" has to say about YOUR INFORMATION SOURCE website: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fox-news-bias/
Third link - nhregister finds Yale biased against Asian and White undergrads. Again, what does this have to do with the peer reviewed science articles? Still no criticism there.
But whatever. Here's the bio of the judge - a Trump appointee - who did the job for 3 years then left for "unspecified reasons". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Dreiband
The fourth link is just a repeat of the third from the official gov website.
Do you see why I didn't trouble myself the first time?
DG - do you know what it's like to deal with a delinquent whose best reply is "HAW HAW HAW look at what a loser U R!"?
This is the way ANY close inspection of right-wing arguments turns out - total BS. That's just the way it is.
Better luck next time.
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Daniel Gray
Still complaining because you cant prove me wrong I see
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Tecla Caryl Loup
This anti-vaccination nonsense is absurd. I had three shots and nothing happened. Everyone I know had the shots and nothing happened. I went through a Covid scare last month when two people whom I knew well developed nausea and vomiting (different weeks), their first signs of Covid, the same day that I saw them. (Maybe that was a reaction to me! I began to think I was Covid Mary!!) They were diagnosed with Covid shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, I sequestered myself and waited. Nothing happened. So perhaps some people are a little too concerned with irrelevancies.
On the other hand, I've never had a flu shot and haven't had a flu in the past ten or more years. And I'm an old person.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I've always had a bad reaction to the flu shot, so I avoid it. I am, however, fully Covid vaxed, and proud of it.
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Janis Carol Sommers
We do not truly know what Touchstone representatives have said. This is all from one perspective. Is it a possibility that he could separate his beliefs from his professional role? I do not think so and maintain his own mental health in the long term based on what we know from him. He's looking for a legal challenge that will set precident in the courts.
Why would this man want to work with this agency? I think he is an instigator with ill intentions. He is more than homophobic. His words sound hostile to the organization's status quo and that is not healthy in a mental health environment. I do not know the laws in the UK that support the employers decisions. Again, you present insufficient documentation in your articles to be able to clearly understand both sides. But,my gut tells me that this guy is far from being a spiritual being in any religion.-
Pastor George Day
Janis Carol Sommers
Spiritual people love unconditionally. Religious people divide and stone people legalistically.
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Richard Clark
Why shouldn't he be terminated from his employment in that church? Fundamentalist fanatics are always firing people in their churches for supporting gay rights.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Or for being female, as we have recently seen the Southern Baptists do to female preachers.
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Pastor George Day
Tecla Caryl Loup
It is interesting, though, that Elevation is part of the Southern Baptists, and yet they have women pastors. Is that because of money?
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Georgia Vlahos
Yes, I think in light of the Supreme Court's recent ruling, they can totally, legally refuse to hire him. It works both ways. Do I think it's right? No, but why would he want to work for a firm that is so LGBTQ friendly? Is he looking to make another case? Move on. I wouldn't work for the NRA, so he should find something more in keeping with his bigoted beliefs.
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Pastor George Day
Georgia Vlahos
I think everyone should be more tolerant of each other. Recently I was asked by my Messianic Jewish leader to dress more 'mainstream' at the leaders' meetings. Since it is a Zoom meeting, I said I would then just put an old picture of me. After being diagnosed with gender dysphoria and becoming able to pinpoint the source of my anxiety, I have chosen to express the woman in me - whom I've called Denise. This is NOT at all the same as endorsing a lifestyle that is different from mainstream. It is simply a fact = reality. I have this condition. Period. But even their people are judgmental, and I think it's time we educated them!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
if your religion teaches you to hate, you need a new religion.
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Pastor George Day
Matthew Mastrogiovanni Our religion doesn't teach us to hate. It is people that need to be educated.
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Thomas Edwin Peterson
Sometimes in any job your faced with things you don't like or are against. If your hired and do it without your personal feelings or beliefs in the mix. Just do the job nothing more nothing less. Without making faces speaking of your own feelings. Few people can do this but find the special ones who can and will.
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David Arthur Lewis
This should be a lesson to all employers: Run an online background check before making a job offer.
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Tom Herman
Employer Employee relationships are generally "at will" meaning either side can end the relationship at any time. Employers should be able to impose conditions with limits of course for the people they pay money. Religion should never be a hiring factor. Employers do have a right to not have an emplyees faith get in the way of the employers mission. Employees can either agree or not if they want the job.
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Gary James Thomas Garrett
No, bigotry should not be allowed
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Paul
There's an Employment Appeal Tribunal precedent - Mrs K Higgs Vs Farmer's School. Mrs Higgs held anti-LGBT views and was dismissed. She claimed religious discrimination. She lost her case. Her dismissal was not for beliefs but for expressing homophobic comments that would have a negative impact on the community being served. Based on that it is unlikely that someone openly anti-LGBT+ could be a social worker. If they left their beliefs at home then maybe.
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Russel A. Kester
That was informative. Thank you.
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Pastor George Day
Paul
Indeed, there is a big difference between non-LGBT affirming and homophobia. I have gender dysphoria and view myself as non-LGBT affirming, but I am by no means homophonic!
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Kim Menier
As a behavioral scientist, I must ask the obvious question: What is this person doing in social work? It is very difficult to be effective in this line of work if you are not able to see past the "wrapper" in order to help the individual.
It has been my professional experience that people with a stated dislike for specific personal qualities/traits - read gender, religious affiliation, body type, ethnic group, etc. - finds it difficult to keep these prejudices in check when working in this field. And since many jobs in this profession are offered through government, these prejudices foretell discrimination in the workplace which is no longer tolerated. Good grief!
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Yes!!
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Pastor George Day
Kim Menier, I so agree with you!
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Shelly Johnson
No he should know as a social worker you have to deal with everyone gay or straight black or white the job he has applied for.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Hallelujah! And what ever happened to “love”?
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John R
In summary of the Right Wing Christian responses: "No you can't, and yes you can." Depending on what serves me.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Hallelujah
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Hallelujah
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Hallelujah
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Sara Diaz
It's just not a good fit to have someone who does not concur with the culture of the business. "...an organization which provides mental health services..." to a community needs to be sensitive to that community's needs. I don't know why someone whose belief system is in opposition to the company's would want to work there anyway. No lawsuit and let this Christian put his energy into helping those more in alignment with his belief system. Hate is not innate.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Perhapsgetting out of the USA is in order, after all the USA believes in and was founded on the ideologies ideologies of freedom and liberty and justice for all? Murders, serial killers and tyrants believe what they are doing is right and have always found lots of biblical passage to justify, in the same manner Nostradamus is a great predictor but no one can tell from his works what’s gonna happen til after the fact and then they fit the event into the passage! It’s the way of the human mind!
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Eric Douglas Reed
The Word says " And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God.. Romans 12:2
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Patricia Ann Gross
Simple question: if he is morally/religiously opposed to LGBTQ+ equality, why in the world would he accept a job at a known LGBTQ+ friendly/supportive organization in the first place unless he was wanting to stir up some sort of trouble? I worked for an organization that provided services to homeless people and if I was the type of person that did nothing but disparage street people and others like them (there are those that do that), then I would not have lasted there very long. Compassion toward the less fortunate was a condition toward my employment, so why should this be any different? Should a white supremist hired to teach in a HBCU and be expected treat the students as equals?
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Well said!
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Pastor George Day
HBCU??
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Patricia Ann Gross
Historically Black College/University
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Russel A. Kester
Wow, this one is tough for me. It seems that it should be possible to have personal opinions or beliefs different from an employer and still be able to do the job. Perhaps they could have hired him provisionally until they could determine if he could truly do the job well. I do hope that he will change his position with time.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Beautiful post! Thank you! I don't think it's so much about 'views' as it is values. Do you value patients and results above 'views'? Then you're hired.
Narrow bigoted hate, not so much.
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Paul Johnson
if you are a true believer then do what you know is right, If your are a make believer then do what ever and suffer the consequence, Its not that hard its sort like being in the service are, are you in the secret service?
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Brien
I agree with all the comments so far. If your job is to listen and council, then your mind needs to be open and free of misconceptions. But, since I have never been to the UK I have no clue what their standards are.
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Pastor George Day
Brien,
In the UK we have the 2010 Equality Law that safeguards all protected characteristics. Religious values and LGBT would be two of them, so here we have what we call conflicting values. In this case, if there are no denigratory comments (viz anti-religious or anti-LGBT), one must make a choice based on such values. This is UK law. Hate speech is illegal, so we must disagree with respect.
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Paul Johnson
That would be the dumbest thing to do "leave your religion at home" that is how many marriages operate today 'just leave your marriage at home" . And you wonder what in the hell is going on in the world? Like the jews "you stiff neck hard hearted beings " When will we ever learn without God there is nothing. Of course their maybe a few who were hatched not created. Just and opinion of some of the answers that have been posted.
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Clay Serenbetz
(0 votes) If a wedding website designer can discriminate over to whom she provides service (see 303Creative and Masterpiece Cakeshop cases), then this business can discriminate against anyone: gay, straight, trans, black, white, Asian or Pacific islander, good looking or ugly Jewish, Muslim. In Michigan, a court ordered a prison to recognize White Supremacy as a religion. Obviously, then if these 2 prison gang members want to assert a religious right to discriminate against non-Whites on religious grounds, SCOTUS just gave them permission to discriminate with the rulings. The gates are open for any business to discriminate against anyone for any reason in any capacity, as long as you claim you have firmly-held religious beliefs. Our country just went back to the 1950s. For example, now, a hair salon in Michigan (the Studio 8 Hair Lab in Traverse City) is discriminating.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Next thing you know, Black and brown people, Muslims, gays and trans people will be refused service at a lunch counter somewhere.
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Pastor George Day
Clay Serenbetz,
I read in that law a close posted here in a link that religious beliefs must be reasonably established. No one can claim new ideas.
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Rev Mark D
It's government work. Does that make a difference?
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Rev Mark D
Rejecting him was premature, it was a prediction of the future which hasn't happened. It's like convicting somebody of a crime before the crime has occurred, as if it is a given that the crime will be committed.
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Rev Mark D
"At the heart of the story is one question: is it possible to hold a moral opposition to homosexuality, but not be discriminatory?"
Wrong. At the heart of the story, and legal case, is one question: is it possible to deny employment based on a prejudicial presumption of guilt for behavior that has never happened yet?
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Rev Mark D
And in fact, if I make correct my own comment, the question is actually a person be denied employment based on the prejudicial prediction but the person will engage in a non-specified behavior resulting in a vague nonspecific description of an effect caused by that behavior, before the behavior can have occurred and the effect can have occurred, as a matter of fact (since he has not been hired so it is impossible that he can have admitted a certain behavior, much less a range of non-specified behaviors, and thereby demonstrated to have caused a certain negative effect, as a result of those behaviors. That's the question. He had been offered the position, and then asked further about the concerns of the employer regarding imagined unspecified behaviors and and told that the expectations would be "no problem." Was there a legitimate reason to conclude otherwise in the absence of any evidence to confirm the prediction or fears by the employer?
So then, somebody tell me who was doing the actual discriminating.
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Janis Carol Sommers
We do not truly know what Touchstone representatives have said. This is all from one perspective. Is it a possibility that he could separate his beliefs from his professional role? I do not think so and maintain his own mental health in the long term based on what we know from him. He's looking for a legal challenge that will set precident in the courts.
Why would this man want to work with this agency? I think he is an instigator with ill intentions. He is more than homophobic. His words sound hostile to the organization's status quo and that is not healthy in a mental health environment. I do not know the laws in the UK that support the employers decisions. Again, you present insufficient documentation in your articles to be able to clearly understand both sides. But,my gut tells me that this guy is far from being a spiritual being in any religion.-
Pastor George Day
So many, sadly, confuse being pastoral with expressing political views... and they think that's being religious!
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Janis Carol Sommers
There is more involved in a job interview than ones religious views. The fact that they rescinded the job after learning of his past homophobic actions put a burden of discrimination on the employer. But, they offered him a second interview [to get more clarification], did their due diligence, and still did not want to hire him does not prove discrimination on the part of the employer. We have no information from Touchstone to refute the story we are told. I think the guy will win in court if this is all that there is to the story.
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Nicholas J Page
Serves him right keep your opinions to yourself not in the workplace we have a young gay women who live upstairs and you wouldn't know it.We all get along well I have no problems with gays or straights it's who we are.Not what we choose to be.Hope you lose your claim
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Joseph Knopick
It's the world that we live in. Unfortunately, proper Christian assertions no longer are the forefront of our average views
As in the USA, were a web designer can now say no to a project that they do not want to work on, so can an employer then deny you a job, if you express disdained so boldly. Therefore, be bold and at the same time be willing to accept that not everyone accepts that same view.
However in the USA employees have protection under law, a person's religion cannot be discriminated against. The employer just doesn't hire the candidate, and give the generic response of we decided to move on to another candidate thanks for applying . .
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
“Proper”, are you God, the Judge and the Executioner?
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ServantOfJudgement
The social mechanics of today are not compatible with Christianity in a few areas. In fact, social work College courses openly shun Christianity in class because of the incompatibility. They sort of Woke god out of the students. The Christian social worker has no choice, they either muffle Jesus or they find a different career. Can a Christian muffle Jesus from his life between 5-9? I don't see how. I have a front row seat to this show in my own life right now.
As far as the news article goes, my advice to the social worker is abandon your career or abandon Jesus, do not live in conflict.
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Gary Leu
I disagree.
Graduate programs for mental health providers to not shun God or religion. A provider is taught to help a person use their own resources to cope with the challenges of life and build up their resiliency. If a client has beliefs and practices that are helpful, they should encourage that person to use those as they deal with life. In counseling/therapy the focus is on the client not on the mental health provider's personal life and struggles. The provider's own beliefs and faith traditions are only relevant as they may be a useful tool in understanding their client.
On their own time, a person can practice their faith however they wish. I do not see this as a conflict. In session with clients behave professionally. During your lunch break, pray. Before meeting with a client a person of faith might ask God to help them understand their client. But it would not be ok to say to your client, "I think that God is telling me to tell you..." I am not sure how you think proper ethical behavior would muffle the social worker's faith. What would that look like? Do you want them to say to their client who is struggling with how to come out to their parents, "Well, that's just a sin and abhorent to God. So you should repress those feelings. I have some hymns you can sing when you have those thoughts and feelings. I think you should convert to Christianity. Jesus will take away those feelings, if you just believe hard enough."?! This would be horrible for that client. It would be unethical.
Maybe this social worker SHOULD leave the profession and become a member of the clergy. They can get away with stuff like that. Ugh.
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Pastor George Day
So many, sadly, confuse being pastoral with expressing political views... and they think that's being religious!
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
You don’t have one choice! You have many choices. You don’t have to muffle Jesus but you don’t have to shove him down the throats of humanity either! There is not one God in this world but many! This nation and around the globe have had religions and beliefs for eons and every time some group believes to be the supreme right they become tyrants and destructors of everything else! These days they call them terrorists!
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Pastor George Day
Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit,
Look around. The Truth wins out. Jesus has changed the Western culture, and he won't be conquered.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
If the person has a problem with LGBTQ et. al then there is a good possibility that the person is not going to do their best, make their best effort, go to bat for someone of the LGBTQ community because they disapprove of them. Can they be as compassionate to a gay person as they might be towards a straight person? Can they be as understanding and empathetic towards a gay person as they might be towards a straight person.
This person made their thoughts known about the gay community so how, in a position where they will be interacting, counseling, advising people of the LGBTQ community can they be trusted, relied upon to do their best, in the best interest of their clients, if they are repulsed by the very innate nature of that person?
Some years back the boogie man phrase that the cristofascists were using was 'the gay agenda' and here we are now face to face with what is clearly a "christian agenda", the lead coming from the cristofascists in the US but now, with the rising of the far right, conservative, nationalist christian taliban they are pushing their cristofascist agenda and are seeing it being applied (often successful) worldwide (just look to some of the african nations and how they treat homosexuals)
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NLilly
I don't believe anyone has to separate him/her self from their Faith if they aren't a threat to anyone. Maybe what Mr. FN should consider is pulling away from that place and starting a Ministry in his field of work on his own, in his Faith in JESUS CHRIST. That way, he will have to forfeit NOTHING and Win Souls for the Kingdom of GOD if that is his goal.
Who wants to live a 'double life'? Those people are Not the only Employers in the World! Go find another Employer who's more Worthy of hiring and promoting People of Faith, Morals, and Integrity! Or, Create Your Own, As A Boss/Owner/Founder! AMEN JESUS! :)
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John Robert Milner
If a business is privately owned and the owner owner is doing custom work the owner has the right to turn down business based on their beliefs! An item that is commonly stocked on shelves is considered public access! Non privately owned businesses must comply with State or Federal regulations!
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Gina Wimsatt
I do not think a person who has strong spiritual beliefs or opinions that discriminate against any group should be allowed to care for anyone in any capacity.
Caregivers like social workers, nurses, doctors, religious leaders and teacher have a special role in the lives of the people the lead, teach and care for. I think it's time to take a serious stance on this. If we never teach the ignorance, misinformation, fear and lies that feed discrimination in all its forms then one day it will be as bygone as the time when it was socially acceptable.
Why anyone religious or otherwise believes they have the ability to judge another person I will never understand... literally every major religion has in their teaching that God is the only one who can judge us. Opinions on God's laws, and God's words do not justify prejudice of any kind.
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Lady Mutt Cat
I absolutely support going by your conscience in a job. Lawyers do not have to take any case we don’t want to. Read that again. Lawyers don’t have to take cases. Why shouldn’t others have that right?
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Lady Mutt Cat
I also support the church for firing him.
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Julie Armstrong
You should not be fired over that. Our Country is Losing its FREEDOM. It's OK if you have the same opinion as Government, however if you don't you suffer consequences. Sounds like China and communism. Stay off social media
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Rev Ned
If it’s OK to refuse service because of pro-LGBTQ+ issues, then the reverse should also be OK.
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Mark Edwin Currier
Agreed
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Sam Prater
My God wasn’t confused and didn’t make any mistakes. If you are gender confused it’s not His fault.
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Russel A. Kester
Sam, how then do you account for gender dysphoria? What happens?
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Raymond Furr
I know it will be a hard thing to not bring the religion to work. Some of the stuff you don't agree what is going on in your job you can't do anything about it yeah you will get fired from your job. For me I will let better business know what is going on.
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James Napoli
I think Touchstone was within their rights as a prospective employer here. They're evaluating multiple candidates for a role and likely have a set of criteria they use to determine their winning candidate. This individual apparently ran afoul of that criteria and they rescinded a job offer because they believed he wasn't the right candidate for the role. He made it known that he has strong views about a patient set that the company services and after additional questioning, the company decided they didn't want to assume the risk of his views impacting patient care.
Now if he had been a full time employee and the company found out he had strong anti-lgbt views then there are some further considerations:
- If his record of patient care is solid across the board, including among the LGBT community, I would keep him on staff.
- If I notice his care towards LGBT patients is lacking, I would set expectations with him and have him attend anti bias training. HIs views should not impede his ability to care for patients.
- If he continues to provide substandard care to LGBT patients or states that he cannot treat them given his beliefs, at that point I would consider termination. He was brought on to do a job and at this point, refusal to treat LGBT patients is not a reasonable accommodation; he is not performing the job he was brought on to do.
The issue here is not whether or not this man is Christian - plenty of Christians would be able to do this job. The issue is his fairly bigoted views of the LGBT community and the risk the company would assume in having him lead mental health care to people he believes to be sinners.
Om a personal note, I just think that if your Christian beliefs are so intrinsically tied to being bigoted towards a group of people...you might need to do some self reflection about why that is and if you are missing the crux of Christ's teachings. His gospel is about love, acceptance, and treating people considered outcasts as equals.
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Pastor George Day
So well said, James Napoli! Bingo!
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Deborah Lynn Strafuss
In light of shop owners being able to refuse to serve LGBTQ people, I think it's fine for employers to refuse to employ people whose views do not align with the company purpose, work and clientele. Doing away with discrimination travels in both directions.
He's lucky there is still a law he can try to draw on.... however, if he truly left his religion at home and was comfortable with the clientele he was working with and made them comfortable, then there is no problem. I bet, in the long run, he is happier not having to be confronted with people and situations that he does not support or agree with. Either that or he applied to try to proselytize his beliefs to others, and work is not the place to do that. Free speech means we have the freedom to walk away from it and people in therapy are vulnerable and co workers cannot leave. Why he would even apply here is a mystery.
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Brother Freddie
Social workers work with people who need help in someway or another. If your religious beliefs keep you from respecting others rights, you will not be effective in your job and can cause harm to the person you are supposed to be helping. The company was right to rescind their offer as the candidate for the job could have caused harm and the company would have been responsible as hiring them.
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Gary Michael Steele
It’s quite simple. If you can legally refuse me service because of your religious beliefs, it follows that I can refuse you service for your religious beliefs. Evangelicals want to have their cake and eat it too. I would not comply with any court order compelling me otherwise.
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Irvin March Cutler
I agree with you. I can’t stand government stepping in all the time like some pompous *** politician has a right to say what’s right for each soul.
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Irvin March Cutler
I thought the Constitution of the United States was law and that law states freedom of speech. If Gays and trannys can voice an opinion then so can straights who oppose gay sex. I’m my opinion GOD is and created all perfect so if someone changes their sex then they are saying I know better than GOD. I think that’s a sin myself. If someone is not for LGBTQ that’s Fine and it’s their rite. I personally think gay sec and sex change , all of it is wrong but I don’t tell others what to do because it’s each of our own lives and we will be judged upon crossing over.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Yes so many sins, I bet the world would be a whole lots better if we all paid attention to our own sins and became the enforcer of our own selves. I’ve come to see that God created and army of enforcers to enforcer their will on others while they themselves are Hippocrates. Do you ever do anything to change your self, your environment, your home, your job, anything? Why on Earth do you do that? God made everything perfect? Yet humanity chafes everything, and destructs almost as much as they change!
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Yes so many sins, I bet the world would be a whole lots better if we all paid attention to our own sins and became the enforcer of our own selves. I’ve come to see that God created and army of enforcers to enforcer their will on others while they themselves are Hippocrates. Do you ever do anything to change your self, your environment, your home, your job, anything? Why on Earth do you do that? God made everything perfect? Yet humanity chafes everything, and destructs almost as much as they change!
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Mark Fay
This article and the comments, display perfectly what's wrong with the world. Leave your religion at home? Wrong answer.. none of the Christians I know go to work and shove their beliefs down the throats of their co-workers/employees... However, you do see the LGBTQ agenda being forced upon people with conservative values or a true Biblical faith...and young children being confused by having it forced upon them despite the wishes of their parents... if you are or support that lifestyle, leave your beliefs at home and don't force them on everyone else. As soon as you read that your head explodes and you demand your rights, at the expense of the rights of people who don't think like you do, unlike Christians, you demand everyone support your beliefs and bow down to you... You can't have it both ways, you have your beliefs, and I have mine, I will not remain silent about mine, while you try to force me to think like you....If you want others to respect your rights, respect theirs....If you don't want to hear about God, keep your immoral lifestyle to yourself.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
I beg to differ they most certainly do but as most humans you don’t much notice if they are already in line with your own thinking!
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Russel A. Kester
What is this agenda that you fear so much? Is it the mere presence of people you who live an, in your words, immoral lifestyle? Or are you angry that most Americans have decided that gay people are pretty darn wonderful and support their civil rights? Because it seems to me that your agenda is to shove your religious beliefs down everyone else's throat until they agree with you and never talk about any subject which you haven't approved with your sanctimonious blessings.
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Pastor George Day
Mark Fay,
I rather think a middle ground is needed instead. Christians must feel able to reach out to the LGBT Community with respect, and the LGBT Community needs to have an open mind to the Gospel message.
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Robert Alexander Owens
I think if you own a business you can accept or deny service at your discretion, however there are consequences, if willing to accept those then fue. Also Christians are discriminated against quite frequently so why can't we, God does, God says He hates the sin and love the sinner, Paul also wrote ifcthe sinner is not willing to change their sinful ways they should not be allowed in the Church. It also says that we as Christians should notice of the World. As Christians we should speak up when sin is in our presence. We should not accept the LGBTQ lifestyle we we should be denouncingvit at every chance we have. The fact that this organization freely accepts LGBTQ in as Ministers is a blasphemous thing.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Who needs God when we have you
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Gavin Butt
well said minister jeannine
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Donald G Magel
He applied at an agency that treats LGBTQ persons? Was this just a set up for a suit? Looks like it.
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Michael Holland
Politicians have found there way into our bedrooms, our drs offices and our work lives. We are not free anymore, the supreme court is stepping all over our rights. When you work for a company you do as they say or you find another job. It is the way of the world now!
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
It has always been the way of the world! You have either been royalty or not…
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Eric Douglas Reed
The Word says " And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God.. Romans 12:2
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
I will bet the likes of Putin and even Hitler and other tyrants of history, will agree with you! That’s the problem with the Holy books they like most language is written with a huge dose of perception required and that is why religions have been overwhelmingly influencers in many ills of humanity! Why not leave the judgment to the God, as He asks if you!
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Peter Senderowitz
Was the applicant informed during the interview of what the organization's views were on the issues at hand. If not, the interview was a " bait and switch".
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
Well it appears the Christian Church and Christian Businesses and fillers have set the bar, as to who they choose to be able to not hire, deny service to, choose who has the right to medical care, education, or remove the rights of anyone they deem not worthy. What’s good for the golden goose is surely good for the gander. Maybe a dose of their own “righteous” medicine that they dish out will be good for their souls! After all, “they” are one of the original “cancel cultures”.
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Hadmels Rafmil De Frias
From an LGBTQI prespective, discrimination goes both ways. If it was a "Christian" organization and they fired a person for being LGBTQ they would had seen that as normal because they are within their "right as a religious organization" to fire those who do not follow their views. So the same can be say in the other side of the coin. However, we cannot claim to be included and our rights if we take the rights of others. In this present climate, where the SPC sees permisible to discriminate against LGBTQI people by "religious" organizations and businesses, it is only rightful and legitamate that, under the same opinion from the courts, we do the same to those who are opposed to us having rights. But, the question remains, is it the right choice?... I see it as an opportunity for dialogue, he will not change his mind as it has been indoctrinated using the wrong biblical translations. But there can be a common groud instead of this back and forth of wills.
I do agree with the firing, but for the wrong reasons self protection. Thus, even though his believes, a job cannot be guided by religion.
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Richard Lee Cornell
Who is in that company work force. If this person has strong religious views then others in the company would feel threaten by him. Then how would he work with others not of his religion
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Connie R Wagar
Ok, simple answered. When working your personal feelings must not be invoked. Not mentioned nor put on others. Keep personal beliefs to yourself. A manual should be drawn up by the company on what to respond to clients with for issues arising incorporating a client with different life styles or beliefs so as to not allow an employee to bring their beliefs forward.
The alternative to this would be all perspective employees would be told and must sign forms agreeing to not use their own religion, personal sexual or other beliefs to a client. Nor can they approach a client outside of work to influence, harass or try to shame them.Another approach would be to have workers of the same beliefs as a client be put together. Not an end all answered but a simple approach. If prospective employer signs agreements and fails to live up it they agree to be dismissed at once.
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Taylor X Zaragoza
Well you could post a sign NO REPUBLICANS, RIGHT WING CHRISTIANS, or OTHER CONSERVATIVE. NEED APPLY!
They used to do it all the time . Besides if he/she/it doesn’t think it’s fair . Tell ‘em to read a history book.
Chickens coming home to roost!!!
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Ken Alexander
Why? Should we leave our identity, intelligence and emotions home too? I don't answer to you or anyone else. All you have to do is let me know what makes you uncomfortable and I'll leave you alone.
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James Riggle-Johnson
You are being hired to do social work that will likely involve the LGBTQ community. What do you tell a same-sex couple who's calling for marriage counseling? Do you tell them I'll pray for you and that you should get divorced because this is against God's will?
The employer has reasonable concerns, and the candidate has already sued regarding another LGBTQ issue. Of course the employer would want to hire someone who has never said anything negative about clients they might encounter. Especially someone who's already filed a lawsuit for his views on the LGBTQ community. His own beliefs make him a bad fit for the position. It would be worse to fire him if he didn't want to serve gay clientele. Firing is much more problematic.
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Pastor George Day
This is so sad! More and more incidents like this feed into the narrative that Christians hate gays. That is a caricature at best!
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Gavin Butt
i believe in live and let live i am a believer in nature and faith because you have to have to live whether it be in yourself or a religion ,ive read most faiths teachings and they all kina say the same
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Pastor George Day
No, Gavin Butt.
They are not all the same. Then you really haven't grasped the kerygma, the core message of Christianity.
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When you go to work, leave your religion at home.
When you leave your house do so.
Susan opined “leave your religion at home” — which is good advice — for those who have their own religion— because those with their own religion (as opposed to acquiring their religion from somewhere else) are far and few between,
I, for example, have acquired what I consider my religion, after decades of studying religious silliness from all over the world.
It’s taken most of my life, to conclude, that God and nature are one and the same thing, and nature requires nothing from any of us except to try to use our common sense.
As Sigmund Freud reminded us, in the conclusion to his remarkable “The Future of an Illusion” — “It would be foolish to believe, that what science can not give us, that we can get elsewhere.”
No one has their own religion — unless they hallucinated that they learned about their God directly from their God.
And, mental institutions have an abundance of such individuals as patients.
I sure can't fault you there, nature is amazingly/impossibly complex and beauty within beauty. 'Nature is my church' can be said by just about all religions, heck I think atheists could even say that and get away with it. I bet Freud said that about science when he met cocain for the first time. Rightly so for without science he would never have found such a love. I do not agree with him though, science is a tool, not a provider.
Read the Bible.
Here in the states the Constitution (which has more authority then you ever will) says you dont have to
This case is in the UK not the States. No Constitutional protection as it has no authority here.
Your religious beliefs are your own if you go to work somewhere that doesn't share your beliefs then that's on you, you can share them but accept whatever you receive from them
I agree, so maybe you can ask all the others why they are throwing fits when this is not even in our country and does not fall under our laws. Do you think its because of non comprehension or completely missing the fact this is in the UK and not the US?
There are two kinds of people in politics today, those who feel people should be able to make decisions for themselves, and those who feel they should make decisions for everybody else.
It has been made perfectly clear in recent years what type of people a lot of the religious are.
And without politicians and judges then all you have is chaos. All you are wanting to do is do what you want and if a person does not agree with you then you want to do everything in your power to change their ideals or force it to be changed under the law. Not working too well for you in the last 5 years now has it?
I feel a little conservatism is good - but too much is exactly what I described.
Right-wing propaganda has an endless litany of how liberals are "Ruining the world!", which they've been screaming about for decades. It's how they get these regressive caveman politicians elected. If I had an extra 10 minutes to waste I could easily Google up what you are referring to from the sprawling right-wing media - but I've lost interest in keeping track.
Then why are you complaining. The decisions in the last five years here is the state have been exactly by the Constitution.
You seem to be referring to something, but your comment is incomprehensible, so I have no idea.
and you having no idea is a regular daily happening for you
Paul Rose, are you based in the UK?
Being a Christian is not a religion. It's a belief and you don't just turn it on and off based on what the world wants. Wordly people who choose to follow the ways of the world will eventually regret it. Sad to say but true, glad I won't be here to watch it happen and say I tried to tell you this would happen. Facts!
Donna Lynne Judalet, I would say being a Christian is more a way of living that is radically changed from our relationship with Yeshua :-)
Agreed. But how successfully can this be done when one's religion teaches them that it is OK and even Christ-like to pronounce judgement on others for things that are rudimentary to their beings and/ or can not be changed?
This is what I was thinking. What were his views/opinions? If they were hatefull or threatening; or a bunch of false claims ( things that are all too often disproven by facts and numbers ); then they did the right thing. If he just "felt" it was wrong; he might have a leg to stand on.
Kim Menier, this is a generalization. Not all Christians are the same, thank God!
It never states he at anytime tried to impose his beliefs on anyone at his job.
The story does say they tried to FORCE him change his beliefs and FORCE him to take an active supportive role in organizations that were against his beliefs.
Would love to see them try and force a Muslim to do those things.
The full story went on to say it was because some didn’t like dealing with someone who did not believe as them.
So guess if some don’t like working with those who are Jewish, they can force them to switch to say Islam, or they can’t work there?
You can’t update add many other scenarios.