A California pastor has been ousted from his parish after putting up a controversial church sign that sparked protests and pitted church leadership against its own congregation.
The conflict began when Pastor Justin Hoke of Trinity Bible Presbyterian Church decided the church's sign out in front of the building needed an update. He settled on a punchy bible-themed message referencing former Olympic athlete Bruce Jenner, who famously transitioned to being a woman in 2015. The sign read:
_BRUCE JENNER IS STILL A MAN
HOMOSEXUALITY IS STILL SIN
THE CULTURE MAY CHANGE
THE BIBLE DOES NO_T
It wasn't long before local LGBT groups, outraged by the sign, organized a peaceful protest outside the church. But unknown perpetrators returned to vandalize the sign under the cover of darkness, spurring Pastor Hoke to express his disappointment about the incident in a Facebook post. "If a conservative mountain farming community is no longer a safe place to call sin, sin, then is anywhere in this country still safe for real Christians?" he wrote.
Undeterred, he personally saw to it that the sign was repaired and put back up.
Story Spreads Nationally
Unfortunately for Hoke, this saga caught the attention of national media outlets, and images of his sign were soon splashed across the internet. This sudden unwanted attention, coupled with such a politically-charged message being attached to their church, made congregants uneasy and shook their confidence in the pastor's ability to lead. He was then relieved of his duties by church elders.
According to his latest Facebook post in which Hoke announced he'd been ousted from his position, nearly everyone in the church had threatened to leave if he wasn't fired as pastor.
Christian Community Reacts
Despite the stinging backlash from members of his own congregation, the overwhelmingly positive response on Pastor Hoke's Facebook page shows that he's still got plenty of allies in the Christian community at large.
"Many are called but few are chosen..The Lord will punish to whom it may concern..Pastor Sir, keep up, move on,dont give up..Where the Lord calls you He will put Joy in your Heart..Wisdom be granted unto you Sir" wrote one person.
"I applaud your stand for Biblical truth. It is a sad day in the USA when freedom of speech no longer means freedom to proclaim Biblical truth!" said another. "Everything on the church sign was correct. Praying for you, Pastor. Stand firm in the faith" offered a third.
Are Biblical Values a Winning Message?
In an age when church attendance is at historic lows and social attitudes toward LGBT issues are rapidly evolving, it's worth questioning whether broadcasting strict biblical messages is the most effective strategy for churches struggling to retain followers and attract new members.
Clearly, saying "Bruce Jenner is a man" will resonate with some sections of the population, but it's also a divisive statement that could turn potential churchgoers away from the faith. For Justin Hoke, the gamble to be provocative obviously didn't pay off but that doesn't mean this strategy will die off anytime soon.
What's your reaction?
281 comments
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Cyril
It's a good thing he was fired. He wasn't doing his job.
The sign out front is supposed to draw people in, not chase them away. Some may say it would draw the "right people" in. But that is foolishness. There is not one group of people that should be saved. All people should be saved. If that isn't the right church for them let them decide by going there, not by looking at a few words on a sign that don't represent the true character of the people in that church.
If you can't handle the basic work of your job you should not have it. You should find something more suited to your abilities. Hoke decided that expressing a personal opinion was more important than saving souls. It was pride, pure and simple.
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Dennis Farro
I support Pastor Hoke. What a disgrace these fools at Trinity Bible Presbyterian Church. They should take Bible out of their name.
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flugo
Yes. He was Biblical in his actions!
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Rev. John D. Partin
Flugo Marx and Dennis Far-a-fieldrow, it is Biblical action, following Jesus, and keeping the Bible in your church and church name to say and do as Jesus said and did that "all that the Father gives me shall come to me and he that comes to me I will in no way cast out" (John 6:37). "Pastor" Hoke (actually Hokey!!) went against Jesus' teaching and practice by not accepting and recognizing and loving transgender and gay people.
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flugo
'fartin': If you will pull your head out and read Hoke's church sign, you will see he's referring to the practice of homosexuality, NOT the homosexual.
Jesus condemned the unnatural, disgusting, and sinful lifestyles of many of the LGBTQxyz-ers, since Jesus said He and His Father are one.
And, the Father's original design for sexual relationships in the book of Genesis was one man and one woman. Jesus underscored this in Matthew 19. Deviation from this is an 'abomination'.
We need more Hokes standing against our 'lily-liver-ed, inclusive, soft, everything goes' society
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Rev. John D. Partin
Flugo Marx, nobody else has their head as far up their own ass as you do, since you keep coming out with your stupid statements and even think that you are one of the Marx Brothers, evidently (to everyone except you!) by your ridiculous statements here!! You are really such a JOKE!!! That could be why you like Hoke so much: because his name rhymes with what you are: JOKE!! Hokey Jokie had no business putting that message on the sign in front of the church there, anyway, because the church didn't belong to him and he was only managing it for those people to whom it does belong and he can't make that decision for them!! That was overstepping his limited authority, which is to voice their will, not his will or other homophobes or homophobic Bible writers' will (passing themselves off as "the voice of God" to suckers like you!!). Besides, his condemning homosexuality did condemn all homosexuals, too, the same as if somebody condemned your practice of idiocy, they would also be condemning all individual idiots, such as yourself!! As I told you in earlier posts, you can't know what was "God's original design for sexual relationships" just from some homophobic verses in the Bible. I'm tired of having to go over all of the same old ground with something like you!!! We "need more Hokes" like you "need more holes in your head" because enough of your "brain" hasn't leaked out yet or the rest of us "need more Hitlers", who also thought that our society was "lily-liver-ed, inclusive, soft, everything goes"!!
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Mark Hannon
I am going to requisition a new testament from God. One that will address modern science, surgery and the digital world. Surely God will want to become more relevant and maybe get more interest by all of humanity and not just the peoples around the Mediterranean Sea. Maybe God could include indigenous people from the Americas, Asia and Australia. God could weigh in on how different countries are republics or communist rather than just kingdoms. Hopefully there are enough people that are receptive to the voice of God since it has been so quiet from God for so long.
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Lionheart
A noble gesture indeed sir. I look forward to hearing of any reply from your requisition.
The gods have indeed been very quiet for quite a while, especially the Sun God of late, but alack and alas, tis the season, unless of course you live in the Southern Hemisphere where I hear the Sun God is currently very active right now.
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JustMe
Wow!!! is my reaction after reading all the fighting about this article. I do believe in Jesus. Wholeheartedly. But I dont judge people of any type because I dont want to be judged. I am certainly not perfect. I do my best to love & show respect to ALL people. Yes I have chosen to be a christian. But I have friends of ALL walks of life. It is not for me to say what any person should do with their life. I dont preach to anyone. I do my best to teach & will pray for someone 'when they ask'. I believe you dont have to respect a faith you dont believe in; but dont disrespect it. What if in the end we find out we were all wrong. What if it doesnt matter how you believed as long as you do. Just live your life. Your way. i wish everyone the best. Everyone.
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James
Bible not change? Actually is DOES change. In 2k years the translations, wording & meaning have been spun, edited, altered changed and reworded. And if that's not enough for ya. Ok, lets assUme the bible not change. Human phaneron & interpretation does change. Between all this. I can say the meaning of most biblical materials has lost most of its intent / meaning by 90%.
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Minister KIM
Who knows bwetter, GOD or Mankind? Funny how the everyday people support and defend what GOD clearly dispises. People think they know or understand the Bible but, their actions and shallow arguements prove otherwise.
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Lionheart
That’s kind of a weird statement Kim. It’s like saying, who knows best Harry Potter or Mankind; Krishna or mankind; Thor or mankind; Vishnu or mankind? The list goes on an on.
If your reference is to the Christian god, he clearly struggles with making good moral decisions. That’s if you also have fully read and understood the Bible Kim.
The Christian God clearly does not despise stoning or slavery so I think you’ll find most of mankind will not defend those sort of decisions made by that capricious god.
So, bottom line, and it’s a tough choice, I’ll choose mankind anytime, even though mankind hasn’t done all that well historically with its wars, but at least mankind hasn’t yet killed almost everyone on earth by flooding it.
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Minister KIM
Reading your response and the other comments, it is clear that the IGNORANT are in control. The world lies in the power of the wicked one, or should that read those that falsely claim to know the truth but are the cannon fodder of mankind? No sense in wasting wisdom with the malcontents of humanity. Perhaps a good culling is in the future for those that have sinned against the Holy Spirit? What do you "people of the world" think? You put faith in mankind without a GOD. No wonder you don't and cannot understand the simple things from GOD's direction. You and others are lost and deservingly so.....
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Don
Well, the Bible god didn't know that bats aren't birds, or that insects have six legs... At least, the PEOPLE who made him up didn't know. Are you for or against slavery? Your "god" is for it.
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James
God despises? God is love. How can LOVE despises? As life on earth is, only humans despises. Kinda like sin'ing against god / love. One can not sin against god. we only sin against ourselves. Again, phaneron at play.
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flugo
'jay': 'God despises?" and '. . . only humans despises.' Before embarrassing yourself and others, you'd do well to do hour 'homework' instead of spouting off rubbish. If you read your Bible you'd find numerous instances of God's abhorring, His hating, His wrath, His finding things abominable. His hatred: Psalm 119:163; 11:5; Proverbs 6:16-19. His wrath John 3:36. His despising homosexuality in Leviticus 18. and there are many other references. The holy, loving, righteous God justifiably despises that which is against His nature.
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Maurice Slaunwhite
No one person has the right to judge anyone about homosexuality because God loves them too. Always leave it to God to Judge People. They have a heart and soul just like we all do, It is also Biblical that homosexuality is not right in the sight of God. No man shall
Lay with a man and that is in the Bible.-
Rev. John D. Partin
Yes, Maurice Slaunwhite, people "speaking for God" (or trying to) are found in the Bible, declaring homosexuality to be a "sin", but their saying that it is a "sin" doesn't actually make it a sin because they didn't actually speak for God. Quite obviously, God doesn't have any real problem with or take any offense at homosexuality because He keeps making more gay people and just wouldn't be doing so if He had a problem with them. Nobody would choose to be gay in this homophobic society, anymore than someone would choose to be a Jew in Nazi Germany, and so gayness must be an inborn trait in gay people and so God implanted desire and orientation in them. That speaks far louder than all of the homophobic verses in the Bible that you and other people can find! Gayness couldn't even be the result of environment because supposedly "gay producing" environments (hair dressing, fashion designing, ballet dancing, and such "effeminate" occupations) don't always or usually produce gay people and macho occupations and environments don't always or usually produce straight people. So much for gayness' being the result of environment.
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Friar Imran
I was taught that homosexuality existed in nature. My teacher had seen masturbation with his very own eyes in animals as a school lad!
I say let's get back to being catholic...
http://yieldmore.org/media/books/ideas/The-Life-And-Morals-Of-Jesus-Of-Nazareth-by-Thomas-Jefferson/
And for those of you who dont know the meaning, catholic means all embracing!
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Sandy
This world is so messed up, I don’t know what to believe anymore—Bible or not—
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Todd
Sin is sin and we must label it as it is after we examine ourselves
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Lionheart
Oh please stop it, get an education, and grow up!
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flugo
There're differences in education, knowledge, wisdom, intelligence. A person can be educated and yet, a fool. The Bible states that it is a fool that says there is no God. But, those who want to know truth, who are willing to acknowledge the truth, and who are receptive to the Spirit of truth (God) are wise. You don't need an education to know God.
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flugo
'lyingheart'l Todd in more informed and wiser than you are in things 'spiritual' He has God-given understanding of which you seem devoid.
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Don
"He has God-given understanding"
He believes donkeys and snakes can talk. He admitted it specifically. So what flugo is saying is that "God-given understanding" equates to willful ignorance.
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Lionheart
Yet another baseless fallacy!
And when you reply, please tell me what “god given understanding” is.
If I believe in mythical fairies (which I don’t), like you believe in a mythical god, does that mean I would have fairy-given understanding?
How would that work with the flat-earth-given understanding people?
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Todd
Don't you read or believe what the bible says
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Ken Dixon
Not everyone here is Christian or a believer in the Bible as literal truth. Is that so hard to understand?
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Don
Do you seriously believe everything the Bible says? Talking snakes? Talking donkeys? A man living in a fish for 3 days? The Sun stopping for an entire day (this would destroy the earth)?
Do you really believe these things?
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Todd
Yes I do God doesn't lie
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Lionheart
So, which mythical god are you into Todd? Is it the angry jealous one that loves killing children, and drowning people?
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Todd
You obviously are not a believer in the bible so I'm not going to waist my time on you
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Lionheart
Why not, you obviously waste your time reading that fictional book?
Try having an intellectual discussion sometime, you might actually learn something to lead you into truth. There is hope, I’ve been where you are.
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flugo
Good on ya, Todd. I wholeheartedly agree!
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Don
God doesn't lie? Are you now claiming a god speaks directly to you? Because the Bible wasn't written by any gods, sorry about that
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Don
Well Todd, if your god exists, it lied to you. It never moved the sun or made it stand still. Such an act would decimate the entire Solar System. But I take it you're not a fan of science or education, given your ignorant comments.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Then, Todd, I have a bridge and some prime Florida real estate that I'd like to interest you in buying, too! They were made just for someone like you!! God may not lie (there is no way to tell, since we never actually hear from Him), but people speaking for God in the Bible and in the world lie all of the time!!
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Reginald Rook
I do
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Lionheart
Oh my goodness reginald, please don’t tell me you have the right to vote. We’re doomed if you do.
The lack of understanding of something is not evidence for god. It’s the evidence of a lack of understanding.
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Lionheart
Errrrr......read yes, Todd, and no, I don't believe what the Bible says.
Do you believe everything written in the Harry Potter books, or Aesop's Fables? They are actually better written, and not as gory.
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John Eubanks
I don't understand the obsession with what goes on in some else's pants. Homosexuality is certainly not the only sin in the book. Not the worst one by far. Why do these people constantly flog it. It is kind of creepy. Sin is sin. How bout giving some of the other ones a little attention. You know like hate, discrimination, hypocrisy, slander, lying, forcing your will on others. The list is long.
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Ken Dixon
I agree. I've known a number of gay and lesbian couples for years, and they're no more likely to talk about the physical aspects of their relationships than I am. Furthermore, they're all kind, caring and decent individuals.
It's impossible for me to accept that loving another person in a long-term, committed relationship is a "sin".
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Rick
Ya'll need to stop tripping, the only thing he said that was true is that he is still a man. You can't change your DNA and your biochemistry. His brain will still send neuro-messages to produce Testosterone and that's why he will have to take oral female hormones to continue as a female. But the biblical judgment ya'll are displaying is straight bull$h!+, Jesus loved everyone because everyone was God's child. Jesus let a sinful woman wash his feet, told her your sins are forgiven and your faith has saved you, Go in Peace. He didn't say leave in hate, that's where the Pastor went wrong. Jesus may have disagreed with this new life style but he would have still loved this God child and left the judgment with GOD!!! Peace & Blessings, Minister Rick
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Joe
LGBT and similar groups demand tolerance for their beliefs and practices. Yet it seems that they are the ones that are the least tolerant. Worse still social media can spread a story like wildfire and the news media is all too willing to fan the flames. The result is that anybody that doesn't March to the PC drumbeat is in peril of losing their job their position and their reputation. Worse still is the practice of revisionism where people's past actions are held to today's standards. People like Paula Dean have paid the price for admitting to using an unmentionable word back when it was mentionable. Apparently Liam Neson didn't get the memo. And now this is being weponized. The Governor of Virginia, Brett Kavanaug and Roy Moore have seen the wrath of these ambushes. So now the ones that most demanded tolerance have become the storm troopers and the window smashers. We can only hope that this turns around before it becomes our new form of government.
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Amy
The church is NOT religion. The church is a control mechanism that has been used as a way to confiscate money and land and to condone murder to shape the masses. though I dont remember the chapter and verse that it is in the bible says go to the closet to pray because whats between you and god is between you and good ( paraphrased). The church is no different then the merchants whos tables Jesus threw around in the market.
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Minister Dorothy
Jesus said he" loves all his children " he did not say "except for...."
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Don
Well he DID teach it was okay to kill nonbelievers. Luke 19:27
And let's not forget the OT laws which call for the death of someone (and which Jesus said to obey. Matthew 5:18).
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Ken Dixon
"Attempting to force others to publicly agree seeks to eliminate freedom of thought."
Might that principle also apply to his use of the sign? There's no "I believe that..." or "My faith leads me to believe that..." preface to his statement, and his message is posted outside the church and directed at the public. The implication is that anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
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Gerry Swetsky
Get your facts straight, Rev. Alan! New York's law did NOT say anyone could have an abortion up until the point of delivery. I don't necessarily disagree with your other points, however just because you read something on Facebook doesn't make it a fact.
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Marie Ashley
Biology doesn't change with surgery and drugs. There are scientifically factual differences between man and woman. No one should be afraid to speak a politically incorrect truth.
Refusal to agree an anorexic is fat is not bigotry, hate or evil. It is fact. Same with gender. Refusal to acquiesce to this Emperor's New Clothes campaign takes courage in the Brave New World. Believing one's physical body changes with clothes (drugs, surgery, cosmetics, etc) is delusion, just like if I believed I was queen and expected everyone to bow in my presence. Living one's life as the opposite physiological gender is freedom of expression. Attempting to force others to publicly agree seeks to eliminate freedom of thought.
Was the sign a prudent, loving expression? Probably not.
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GEORGE SJOSTROM
The Bible and its approach on homosexuality set an interesting double standard but what's most interesting is the fact that the present day bibles that the majority uses and reads from was written by man and not by god. In fact god had little to do with the present day bible so any one that reads from it or that even preaches from it. Needs to keep in mind that it a book of ancient accounts or a book of historical events that when in interrupted can be compared to present day events when used correctly. it doesn't mean every thing is written in stone (ok there are those ten acceptation's.) imposing ones belief on another is something that many drama queens and tyrants have been doing since the beginning of recorded time. While I myself don't codon homosexuality it is a part of modern day life. If you feel that you can't accept those that choose to be homosexual in there lifestyle. than maybe you need to step back and look at your lifestyle and figure out what it is that makes you such a saint. for years everyone has cried out over the male homosexual yet when it came to the female lesbian it was accepted. yet both are classified as homosexual. neither can reproduce without a male of female counter part. The homosexuals of the world aren't the ones causing problem is the world granted most of them with celebrity status are nothing more that drama queens that want to be the center of attention in every body's life. which is what articles like this one create for them. stop giving them what they want and that will fade of in to the back ground and be forgotten. In my travels I have met UCL ministers from all walks of life and all lifestyles and yes that includes the homosexual community as well. and I welcome them with the same open ares that god welcomes me with in my daily life.
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Ken Dixon
"If you feel that you can’t accept those that choose to be homosexual"
I've never understood why anyone would "choose" to be homosexual.
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Rev. Alan Schantz
Either you believe in the bible, its teachings and the laws given by God or you do not. Specifically, the 10 Commandments. The state of New York just passed a law allowing the abortion killing of a child up to and including the moment the new, fully formed human being begins to emerge from the mother. When this law was passed New York state legislators cheered and celebrated. This is murder by any standard - whether the laws of God or secular law. This shows just how far away society has come from the values and standards upon which our country was founded. This shows how complete the breakdown of standards of morality and ethics is today.
As for homosexuality, it is a reality that has always existed and will continue to do so. Modern society accepts this and many people accept that homosexuality is determined at birth and not by choice, I agree with this. It is up to everyone to deal with this as they see fit. I believe in tolerance and acceptance but understand that many do not. People on both sides have a right to their opinion and should not be condemned for their opinion. Whatever their belief they ought to allow others to have their own belief. Neither side should demand others take their point of view. If you believe in a supreme being, God, you should have faith to believe that at the end of our life we will all be judged by God according to his plan, not our own.
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Don
"Either you believe in the bible, its teachings and the laws given by God or you do not. Specifically, the 10 Commandments."
Specifically, there are 613 Commandments, including taking your disobedient child to the edge of town to STONE THEM TO DEATH.
You can believe in the Bible's teachings, but if you FOLLOW them, you are a criminal child abuser (among other things).
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Ken Dixon
For anyone interested in various faiths' beliefs regarding gods, the afterlife, evil, miracles and other related matters, I highly recommend the Morgan Freeman series "The Story of God", newly available on Netflix US (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5242220/)
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Cheryl Long
...A very well done series that approaches a wide spectrum of beliefs with the RESPECT that should be demonstrated in this forum. Amen, anyone?
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Ms. Taken Forafool
John 8:13-15 (NIV) 13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”
14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.
15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
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Lionheart
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be.
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain.
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn’t mean we all have.
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Do not pity the dead, Harry, pity the living, and above all those who live without love.
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Frank Miranda
The pastor was right , the trouble with churches now days is that they don't preach sin is sin , all they want to do is make everyone feel good so they can get the greater numbers . They need to preach what the Bible calls sin will take you to Hell , but Thank The Good LORD he provided a way to escape eternal punishment , that GOD sent his son to endure the punishment that we all deserve , but you have to have a repentful heart and truly see you need to be saved from your sin , by asking forgiveness and asking JESUS to come into your heart and save you , and have a born again experience going on faith and turning from what you used to do and seek Gods face and his direction , find a church that preaches the cross and the blood that can cleanse the darkest stain of sin and make you white as snow , a church that preaches the whole BIBLE and doesn't water down the GOSPEL , for regardless what people may think or say , there comes a day when we ALL will stand before the Judgment seat of CHRIST , we are not promised of our next breath , . GOD BLESS And May The Good LORD Direct Your Path .
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flugo
Frank: An excellent overview of the gospel. Glad to see it!
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Rick Williams
Born a male you will always be a male no matter what you think and homosexual is and will always be sin no matter what you think period...deal with reality
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flugo
Rick: Right on!
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Lionheart
Well, Rick, “reality is”, that no one has yet proved any gods exist, even yours. So, being as the word “sin” is created from religious dogma we can totally ignore your fallacious statement.
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Cheryl Long
And here is more of that mean-spirited vitriol.
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Lionheart
I’m sorry you see my statement of fact as being mean-spirited and vitriolic. Perhaps you have evidence to disprove anything I’ve said.
To me, mean-spirited is telling someone a mythical god will punish them in an after-life for not being in compliance with its fictitious laws.
There have been many people of this world who have committed suicide for believing in this fallacious rubbish, and many people have died at the hands of those trying to ensure people abide by fallacious religious dogma.
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Don
Where? Please point out the mean-spirited vitriol in his comment. (it's easy to spot in Rick's comment, I see none in lionheart2020's) Failing that, ease up on the drama and false accusations. Thank you.
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Cheryl Long
When I joined ULC, I wasn't aware that it was a hate-filled, judgment-spewing body of people who were incapable of hearing and accepting the opinions of others. These posts are mean-spirted, with the only purpose to come out of an argument as the victor, no matter how much vitriol had to be applied to win. I am ashamed that I ever wanted to be part of a body that I believed allowed the give and take of personal views in an environment of spiritual and philosophical love and brotherhood. I don't want to be part of you anymore. I want to be part of the body of Christ. If that makes me a moron in your eyes, so be it. It is the eyes of God that I care about, not you.
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Ken Dixon
I agree, Cheryl. This forum could easily be a place where differing opinions on matters of faith are expressed and responded to with respect. Instead, it's often reduced to long, tedious arguments over what the Bible says or doesn't say. I don't need to be harangued, preached to or converted, and I happen not to believe that any religion should be used as a weapon. I know that there are intelligent, kind people here, but if their voices continue to be drowned out by what appears to be a majority of judgmental individuals, I shall also leave the site.
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Don
Cheryl, I've notice that what you call "hate-filled, judgment-spewing" only seems to be directed at those countering racism and/or homophobia disguised as religious belief.
Not ONCE have I seen you denounce or denigrate anyone promoting bigotry or hate. Only those who do. Why is that?
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Evan
Evidently, the members of Trinity Bible Presbyterian Church are all a bunch of Hypocrites. Do as I say , not what the Lord wants. That is how Jim Jones got His fame. That is why I left the Christian Church many years ago.
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Father Fred
The problem is not that a person believes homosexuality is a sin or not. The problem is simply what one person, or persons believe, is often assumed to be more valid than the words of God. The various gateways of media, such as social media, are the tools in which to take our reactions and validate our outrages and justify why our opinion is greater than others, including God, We have the ability to read, write, and physically act out, and justify that our actions carry more importance and justification than any other human, law, or God.
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Zeb
If all the shop lifters, murderers and prolific sinners are going to hell to burn for eternity; could this be the real cause of global warming ??
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Tom
The pastor acted in a bombastic, unethical, prejudicial manner towards a targeted group of his fellow human beings...he needs a lot of reflection before he again acts to influence others....Peace...Tom
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Carl Elfstrom
He'd be much better off considering a career change, where he'll never have any influence over anyone, like maybe a janitor, where he'll have a great opportunity to practice the spiritual principle of humility.
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John Owens
but he was telling the truth. Bruce IS still a man. Just non-functioning as a man anymore, but still a man. Always will be. Just seems mean for him to put it out like that, since so many people want to pretend you can turn a man into a woman, and get their feelings all hurt when someone points out that you can't. Like telling kids there's no Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. It's just MEAN.
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Don
"Like telling kids there’s no Easter Bunny or Santa Clause."
But Johnny, you claim to still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Unless you're claiming your god has more evidence than Santa or the Easter Bunny, in which case...
Present it.
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John Owens
Never claimed to believe in any of that, Don. I hate Christmas and Easter, but I don't go around telling little pagan children they are lies. Let them find out on their own.
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Frank Villari
Where is the sense of Christ's unerring balance, tolerance, understanding, and love? Judge not, Pastor, lest ye be judged.
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Carl Elfstrom
I must agree with flugo on that. Not all things have to be in writing to know they are wrong. It's called having a healthy, moral conscience.
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Lionheart
I'm wondering what a "healthy, moral conscience" is with so much death, misery, and destruction that was directed by the angry biblical god. He didn't exactly set many good examples with his obdurate behavior.
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Carl Elfstrom
In my comment above I wasn't referring to anything biblical or christian, but was talking about people in general. They just put my comments where they want to. It wasn't meant to be a continuation of the above dialogue. Besides that, I agree with you completely, Lionheart.
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Carl Elfstrom
Why don't we talk about the bi - sexuality of Jesus and his twelve merry men who left their wives and families to be with him, none of which ever had a woman again. And he didn't have them for domestic help either. They didn't even have a house to clean, but I bet he taught them how to get down on their knees to pray, or something.
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John Owens
I don't know what the pastor's goal here was, besides saying something inflammatory. I was under the vague impression that Presbyterians were embracing homosexuality these days. I have been away from the mainstream Protestants for a while, but this may well be an independent congregation that is Presbyterian in name only, and unaffiliated with the United Presbyterians.
He could have just said that sexual promiscuity is a sin. That covers just about everything to do with sexual and pseudo-sexual behavior, and doesn't single any one group out. I hope he is happy with his result. He may feel that he is being persecuted for his faith or his free speech. What he said about Bruce Jenner was not technically untrue, but the way he said it was nothing but inflammatory, and I would think that in California, it would be considered even more inflammatory than in, say, Texas or Virginia.
I guess what a person can say on a sign like that is somewhat limited by the amount of space and letters available, but the worst limitation is the imagination. I often see physically similar signs with very clever remarks on them that are not spiteful or inflammatory. Not that I think God has any place on a bumper-sticker or billboard, but it is possible to evoke curiosity or thought without just being rude.
I am not suggesting that people with fundamentalist beliefs need to change those beliefs to match whatever is currently in vogue, but there are times and places where honesty is appropriate and appreciated and times and places to keep silent. There are things I will gladly discuss honestly and openly in private settings that I would not even consider putting on social media or on a sign in front of my house. That is not being hypocritical on my part, but an attempt at being considerate of others.
If this pastor really believes what he is saying, I think he should be trying to win hearts and minds to his point of view. I don't think he accomplished anything good with his sign. "Preaching to the choir" is just another form of narcissism, and it is not going to reach those who may need some support and hope.
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Don
"He could have just said that sexual promiscuity is a sin. That covers just about everything to do with sexual and pseudo-sexual behavior, and doesn’t single any one group out."
Nah, that would out every single member of his congregation.
"Not that I think God has any place on a bumper-sticker or billboard"
Why not? Do you think Harry Potter has any place there? Why give Harry Potter what you deny to God?
"Preaching to the choir” is just another form of narcissism"
Yeah, here we call that "going to Church services".
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John Owens
Well, on the first quote, Don, that is a pet peeve of mine-- pretending to teach "the way", but only teaching those parts of "the Book" that won't step on the toes of the parishioners. One form of sexual promiscuity should not be singled out for special criticism above others (although rape and child molestation are not exactly JUST promiscuity, because they involve coercion and abuse). They should not point out the wantonness of the gay people if not pointing out also the sins of the heterosexuals, the adulteries of the married, the perversions of the bestial, the voyeur, and the flasher
As far as the billboard remark, I find it trivializing to put God on a bumper sticker, and even if the person who does it does not see it that way, to me it is like wearing something to declare one's own righteousness, like, say, a large blue band on the border of one's phylactery, or a big cross or crucifix, or a clerical collar. I wouldn't be caught dead with any of those things.
Preaching to the choir is just like listening to one's own voice in an echo chamber. They are only going to say "Amen" to everything. Yes, that IS going to church to most people. More attention to ritual than substance. Like having a "Bible study" but not opening a Bible-- only the Watchtower or Good News or Prayer book.
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Don
"although rape and child molestation are not exactly JUST promiscuity, because they involve coercion and abuse"
Could you point out the Commandment(s) that forbid child molestation and rape? Because there are plenty of verses that say those horrible things are okay. You HAVE read the Bible, haven't you?
"I find it trivializing to put God on a bumper sticker"
I find gods trivializing.
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flugo
Don: YOU supply the Scriptures that DO okay child molestation!
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John Owens
There is no verse that says child molestation and rape are okay.
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Lionheart
Don has already made one reference to Numbers 31:16-18 if you check out his statement above.
Looks as though your God also instructs to kill all the young boys. What's with your God killing little children all the time? He's a real messed up infanticidal dude....and worse still....many of you follow him and think he's wonderful. He has MAJOR anger management issues.
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John Owens
He did reference that, Lionheart, but it does not say what he said it does.
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Don
"There is no verse that says child molestation and rape are okay."
Numbers chapter 31 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Feeling stupid yet AGAIN, Johnny?
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Don
"There is no verse that says child molestation and rape are okay."
Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Do you ever get tired of being proven wrong over and over again?
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John Owens
So, I didn't see any reference to rape or molestation in there. Don't you get tired of leaping to erroneous conclusions? No one else makes you do it.
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Don
"I didn’t see any reference to rape or molestation in there."
You are either a sleazy liar (and defender of child rapists) or illiterate. Stop playing stupid - SLAY ALL THE BOYS AND THE GIRLS EXCEPT THE VIRGINS, KEEP THOSE FOR YOURSELVES - if the boys and girls being referenced were YOUR CHILDREN, would you see the reference THEN?
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flugo
Don: 'proven'! Your lurid comments are just baseless and imaginary suppositions. . . . . NO proof at all! Your obtuse, sinful, unscholarly and off-the-wall guesses depict a dirty, immoral and warped mind.
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John Owens
Only a perverted mind would ASSUME that is was in order to violate the girls. I suppose in a world where there is now a history of Islam, that would be an easy mistake to make, but as I said, only if your mind leaned in that direction already. It certainly doesn't SAY that.
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Don
"Your lurid comments are just baseless and imaginary suppositions"
That's rich coming from the spineless coward whose EVERY COMMENT is grounded in a baseless and imaginary book, the Bible.
Be glad irony isn't painful.
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Don
What kind of person (besides a serial child rapist, that is) could look at that verse and pretend it's not about the abuse of children?
SLAY THEM ALL...KEEP THE VIRGINS FOR YOURSELVES <---please tell us which one of these words you're having trouble with, Johnny.
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Cheryl Long
Don and John: If everybody's opinions carry equal weight in here, here's one for you. You should both get a room!
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Don
"He did reference that, Lionheart, but it does not say what he said it does"
I quotes the verses WORD FOR WORD. Which words do you not understand? SLAY? VIRGINS? KEEP FOR YOURSELVES? Which one??
And I ask again, Johnny - if the verses were referencing YOUR CHILDREN, would you still be having translation issues?
Seriously, an adult in this day and age defending child molestation and murder...it should be illegal. And punishable by castration!
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John Owens
So, you think the only purpose a virgin can serve is to be raped? Am I reading what you are saying correctly? Because it seems like that is what you are saying.
You keep insisting that the Bible says things that it does not say, Don. That is because you have been heavily indoctrinated by someone. If you will take your head out of your arse for just a moment, you will see this.
"I quotes the verses WORD FOR WORD. Which words do you not understand? SLAY? VIRGINS? KEEP FOR YOURSELVES? Which one??" YOU are the one having reading problems. It doesn't say anything about sexually violating anyone, but YOU keep insisting it DOES, while plainly, in black and white, it does NOT.
I agree that castration should be the punishment. God's punishment was DEATH. Which is why your interpretation of the scripture you referenced is not accurate. A warrior would have been condemned to death for raping a child, AS HE SHOULD. It does NOT say what you so adamantly and ignorantly insist that it does say. Admit that, and change the subject, or prove that you are a spoiled little boy who thinks he always has to be right, even when he is wrong.
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Don
"It doesn’t say anything about sexually violating anyone."
Such idiocy. It says the men came in, MURDERED their mother and father, MURDERED their old sisters, MURDERED their baby brother...but you believe they, the virgins, are taken and not touched. If you really believe that, Johnny, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
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Carl Elfstrom
It could just be that he thinks he's too fat and ugly to be sexually attractive,and deep,down, inside of him is a pretty woman who desperately wants to be free, but he can't quit living the false identity he has created for himself, and is taking it out on those men who are free to be the women they think they were meant to be.
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flugo
John Owens: An excellent observation.
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Alicia
Obviously, this "Pastor" took it upon himself to judge when his bible clearly states that job is god's alone.
Just a side note: It's my personal opinion that the Bruce Jenner comment was kind of right on. I don't believe that he is actually transgender. Cross-dresser, yes. Once the Kardashian clan turned against him (and took their money with them), he needed to make a buck. Hey...at 65, he figured he didn't need the "equipment" any longer, so, what the hell...lop it off and call himself Caitlyn. He could still be with women, so, why not? When I look at him, I just see a man in a dress and really wouldn't be happy to see HIM in a ladies' room.
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flugo
Alicia: It'd be nice if you did your homework before embarrassing yourself with your inaccurate comment. You stated judging is God's job alone.
Jesus Himself said to judge rightly, in John 7:24. And in John 17:3, He tells us to rebuke the errant. Rebuking involves evaluation, appraisal and discernment - judgment.
It's reasonable to judge behavior and attitudes - bit it is different from judging the person.
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Don
Phlegmo,it'd be nice if you realized how much the Bible contradicts itself and stop claiming to be some sort of Biblical scholar. Because you obviously are not.
1 Corinthians 2:25 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
James 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
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Don
"Don: YOU supply the Scriptures that DO okay child molestation!"
Sure! There are dozens, all easy to find, You can start with Numbers 31:16-18 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
I'm sure you are smart enough to find the rest of them.
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Lionheart
I'm sure someone will say that it's a parable Don. This God is very preoccupied with sex for some stupid reason. If it's not removing male foreskins, it's some preoccupation with young virgins. What's with this god guy?
I think if I had to choose, I'd go with the Sun God. At least you know it's there, and everyone can see it, and it's not half as morally corrupt as the Christian one.
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flugo
First: there are NOT dozens of alleged Biblical episodes of'child molestation'!
Secondly: your speculative baseless, twisted, 'guess-timation' of the Numbers incident has nothing to do with child molestation. Along with other similar references, this incident provides young captives for domestic services, NOT sexual.
I may not be as 'smart' as you, but I AM scholarly and objective in my Biblical studies.
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Lionheart
Well, Mr Flugo, if your poor interpretation of verse 18 is referring for men to keep young virgins for domestic services, are we to assume that somehow “young virgins” are better equipped for doing that? Why would they?
If I wanted someone for domestic services I certainly wouldn’t kill every male among the little ones. They would also provide good domestic service as they grew older.
Nah, I think your logic is flawed, not to mention extremely naive. I seriously question you are scholarly, and definitely not objective if you think a female with an intact hymen only makes for a better servant.
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Don
"this incident provides young captives for domestic services, NOT sexual"
It's disgusting that you typed that filthy lie, and pathetic that you actually believe it.
"I AM scholarly and objective in my Biblical studies"
Your comments prove you are anything BUT objective when it comes to the Bible and its contradictions, outright lies, and gross immoral rules. You don't even have the integrity to admit they're even there!
One last thing - take your baseless insults and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. Thanks so much.
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John Owens
To have used these young girls (it doesn't say how young) sexually would have been a violation of the previous commandment against fornication. The Deity would not command His people to violate a previous command. To interpret it that way is just a natural, human way to interpret it, but mistaken.
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Don
"To have used these young girls (it doesn’t say how young) sexually would have been a violation of the previous commandment against fornication"
But MURDERING ALL THE LITTLE GIRLS is just fine and dandy. You sure like to use your lame excuses, and then "forget" them for the next verse.
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John Owens
It doesn't mention that, Don. From whence do you derive that quantum leap in logic?
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Don
"MURDERING ALL THE LITTLE GIRLS" "It doesn’t mention that, Don"
Why does Johnny's reading comprehension always crash and burn when he's defending a disgusting verse? WHY??
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." <---SEE WHERE IT SAYS TO KILL THEM? Sheesh!
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John Owens
Don't you get tired of trying to make the argument evolve to make yourself right? What is wrong with you? You were saying it condoned molesting the girls who had never known a man. It does not. It never did.
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Carl Elfstrom
In a way I agree with Alicia. Not only might Jenner still be a man, but might be an orally inclined straight man. Older men were well known for their oral skills before Viagra. Maybe he's turned on by lesbians. I fell in love with a lesbian, once, but wouldn't consider a sex change. Why should I ? There are blenty of fish in the sea. I'll stick with Viagra, when on occasion I can afford it, and could use a little more Extenz. However, I can see how a sex change could be a good thing for an orally inclined, older straight man like Jenner. With that in mind, sex changes might even become trendy. And there might even be a sudden influx of Catholic Nuns. The Bible doesn't say anything about lesbians, or lesbianism.
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Jack Lam
I don't no who you non believers are but we didn't ask you in here to criticize me or god we don't need your insults.
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Don
Go away, spineless cowardly little maggot. Your ignorance and hate have no place here. BEGONE SATAN!
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Chas Berlin
Thank you for taking a stand against Pastor Hoke's hyper, OTT, refusal to exhibit the love of Christ in communicating his messages to the community. The Scripture tells us to speak the truth in love. Hoke spoke the truth with no sensitivity to anyone who didn't agree with him. His billboard message was a classic example of his lack of concern for people in his community. That sign would not draw anyone into his church, including myself, a born-again believer who believes in being conformed to the image of Christ, and everything stated in Scripture. Hoke sadly is in need of being mentored, not leading a congratulation, and I wish him God's best and hope he finds a church where he can be mentored. I believe he is very well intentioned, though very short sighted in thinking he is someone special, who is called by God to correct the body of Christ at large. Hopefully now your church will be able to grow again, as people are drawn to a loving community, not a self righteous individual.
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Chas Berlin
The point is not debating right and wrong here, but rather the insensitivity of ex -pastor Hoke, Sadly he has a long history of insensitivity, which is why he was fired. I know since I used to attend the church .
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Jack Lam
You can rant&rave all you want but when your time comes I'll be there praying for your sole.aman.
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Lionheart
I think you’ll find Sole is a fish, or the underside of ones foot. Is that what you meant?
I’m happy for you to pray for my feet anytime. After a hard days night they do ache sometimes.
Education can be a problem in ones life at times, can’t it. Hang in there!
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Jack Lam
Without god in our life's we are nothing.aman!!
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Lionheart
Well, your mythical god isn't in my life and I’m way better off than being nothing. Life is wonderful!
But, if I really am nothing, I’m really enjoying being nothing, if that’s what I am.
I know you can’t see how indoctrinated you have become, but for what it’s worth, it’s really messed you up. There is hope though, I’ve been where you are so it is possible to not be bound by your dogma. Freedom of thought can be yours, if you want it, but I’m thinking your mind is now closed.
I send my well wishes in the hope that one day you will truly see the light of reality.
Peace!
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Alicia
A quick edit:
Without god in our lives, we are nothing. Amen!
Now for MY take: Bullshit! There are many who don't worship YOUR god who are good, upstanding citizens. I refuse to believe that these people will burn in your hell, yet a mass murderer who "accepts Jesus" will be rewarded.
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Chas Berlin
To Bob the elder of Shastina Community Bible Church ... Thank you for taking a stand against Pastor Hoke's hyper, OTT, refusal to exhibit the love of Christ in communicating his messages to the community. The Scripture tells us to speak the truth in love. Hoke spoke the truth with no sensitivity to anyone who didn't agree with him. His billboard message was a classic example of his lack of concern for people in his community. That sign would not draw anyone into his church, including myself, a born-again believer who believes in being conformed to the image of Christ, and that everything stated in Scripture is true. Hoke sadly is in need of being mentored, not leading a congratulation, and I wish him God's best and hope he finds a church where he can be mentored. I believe he is very well intentioned, though very short sighted in thinking he is someone special, who is called by God to correct the body of Christ at large. Hopefully now your church will be able to grow again, as people are drawn to a loving community, not a self righteous individual.
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J’oserai
Let’s take this statement by statement, shall we... 1. “Bruce Jenner is still a man” - yes, yes he is. But Bruce doesn’t exist anymore. 2. “Homosexuality is still a sin” - if the OT is correct, it is...as is cutting your hair and beard, and eating anything with cloven hooves. Who’s willing to give up the baby back ribs while throwing stones into the gay pride parade? If you believe Jesus died for all our sins, thereby rendering the OT obsolete, no it isn’t. 3. “The culture may change” - indeed, without change, culture and even society itself will stagnate and become unworkable. Change is a good thing. 4. “The Bible does not” - depends on who you ask. Could be the Bible is the cornerstone of a good life...or it’s a book of very old fairy tales. For others, it’s a pack of lies meant to deceive. The way I look at it, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. I certainly don’t agree with anti-LBGT sentiment as a general rule. This, to me, is just another item in a long list of complaints against organized religion.
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flugo
The spineless, congregation ought to be ashamed of themselves. We need more Hokes! We need more church leaders championing Biblical truths. We more need Christians denouncing the lifestyles and attitudes of our degenerate and sin-ridden society. We need our lives shaped by Biblical truths and precepts. Good on Hoke, and shame on his ex-congregation!
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Lionheart
Yay for Bible truths!
Let’s crush peoples sculls and splatter their brains by stoning them to death. Let’s bring back slavery! Both of these are acceptable, and approved, by your god in your blood thirsty book.
Nah! I think I’ll stick to the Harry Potter books. At least these are suitable for children to read before they go to bed.
Nursery rhymes, and stories of fairies, are also better than your book, and more meaningful in their narrative. ?
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Don
Very funny, Phlegmo. You almost had me with the fundamentalist rant. :)
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The Doctor
Flugo is just the latest handle of one formerly going by Bob FL. He talks extreme rhetoric, acts like all other faiths are nothing and those that practice differing beliefs hateful things. He changed his name after admitting in a post that he harbored secret incestuous rape fantasies for his little sister for many years and said it was only the saving grace of god that held him back.
So I kept calling him out for being the rape fantasist he is and trying to act like being afraid of the beating by his dads belt equaled righteous faith.
Then he thought going by the obvious handle using the old handles last initials right after ceasing with the old handle wouldnt be noticed.
Which considering how confrontational he has been since I started by campaign against him clearly is getting under his skin.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
The bible thumper trolls are posting their biblical drivel. The bible is a mere human book, either infallible or inerrant or the word of god.
Here is what Finland has declared about conservative, extremist Christianity. "Finland Deems ‘Traditional Christianity’ To Be Toxic." Read more here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/laughingindisbelief/2019/01/finland-deems-traditional-christianity-to-be-toxic/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=share_bar&fbclid=IwAR1PeMroCxxg5cxP_1QUAdkaXrpBtP6douvUtIJ8BIIcgm_GKBoksvQ8Yp4#UsCVb4ssIHkykbJ7.01Bible thumper heads to explode in 5-4-3-2-1....
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
In above comment the word is "neither" nor "either."
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flugo
This world needs more Hokes! He had the courage and convictions to stand up for the truths of God's Word. He had the balls to confront the attitudes of our sin-ridden, wayward society. He was true to his calling as a Christian minister. Shame on the gutless, piss-weak congregation who opposed and abandoned him. God bless him and his future!
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Jack Lam
I agree with you.the left finds excuses to put true Christians down when they can.
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Jack Lam
That's why I like our president he don't take shit from non believers!
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Chas Berlin
Hoke was extremely insensitive, both in and out of the church, which is why he was fired . I know, I used to go to that church .
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flugo
The main issue is Hoke's publicly displaying biblical concepts, for which he is too be commended. And I deplore the congregation for not standing with Hokes in this situation. Declaring and supporting Biblical concepts is the issue. Hoke's personal relationship with congregation members is a peripheral topic, I suggest.
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Chas Berlin
For example, Hoke went on record saying anyone who is not a calvinist is a heretic. Not only was his theology inaccurate he was completely insensitive to anyone who disagreed with him. He promoted the gospel that was extra-biblical. He took over a church of 125 people and whittled it down to four couples. What's that tell you?
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flugo
I stand my my previous comment.
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Frank Villari
And, Christians are still passing judgement on others. How sad they don't practice what they preach.
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Maurice Slaunwhite
Your right Homosexuality is not allowed or will not be allowed by God's law or ever will be allowed. If it is allowed God will deal with it. God bless you all and live right according to God's law. Minister Maurice
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Don
You might want to brush up on the bylaws of the ULC and leave the cowardly, hateful and ignorant trash out of your comments, "minister". Homophobia (as well as any other irrational fear) has no place here.
Thanks so much.
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Lea Weisenbach
The bible is nothing but a book..Its not holy..its not gods word..its a book...that's it..It sickens me that people just cherry pick for their own ego..But its nice to see the congregation is speaking up....it's about time.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Totally agree. The bible thumper trolls are posting their biblical drivel. The bible is a mere human book, neither infallible or inerrant or the word of god.
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Larry Copeland
Satan you know
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flugo
We need more church leaders who have the balls to call a spade a spade. Who have the courage to acclaim the truths of the Word of God. Who have the convictions and courage to confront the immoral attitudes of our hell-bent, sin-sick society.. Shame on the gutless, piss-weak parishioners for not supporting their leader. This country needs more Hokes!
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The Doctor
Ah a spade is a spade line, not at all subtle about your bigotry as only those who still like to refer to those of african ancestry spades uses that word anymore. Heck here in nevada we call that suit of cards swords more often then not.
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ET
Speech guaranteed by the US Constitution May be free, but there are social consequences not prevented by the Constitution. Be careful and choose wisely the social hill you wish to die on when availing yourself of your right to free speech in public regarding charged social issues. Hopefully, Pastor Hoke was willing to risk the consequences.
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Rev Buzz
As I have commented numerous times before, conflicts between what is written in the Bible and the society we live in today can only be resolved if clerical hiarchy comes together to agree on what is acceptable. The pastor that was fired, posted a message that was fully congruent with biblical text. Anyone who has read the Bible will know that I shouldn’t have to track down and quote the numerous references to God’s displeasure with homosexuality. Having said that, the pastor should have known that posting such a message would have been highly inflammatory to our modern society which views such messages as not only politically incorrect, but also by some factions as a potential hate crime. Such a situation definitely put this pastor in a position of being between a rock and a hard place. All the more reason for clergy of all denominations to come together and update the philosophical differences between biblical text and our current society. Yes, I know some will say that is heresy, and that the Bible is sacred and the written word of God can not be changed. I have to disagree with anyone who takes that rigid of a stand. Throughout history the Bible has been changed or at least the strict adherence to it has. The King James Version is a prime example. One of my favorite sayings is that; We can only be treated the way we LET. others treat us. Collectively, we need to strongly stress to all religious hiarchy the need to make needed changes acceptable to the one God of this one earth. Otherwise, those like this pastor, will go on thinking they are doing the right thing in abiding by the scriptures and will get fired by a more progressive thinking society. Oh yes, I know I will catch heat for my comments. As the ULC states: Do That Which is right.
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Carl Elfstrom
The Bible is interpreted in different ways by different people. Fortunately, many Christians don't share your interpretation. I once knew a retired Methodist minister (who started out being a Baptist minister) who explained the story of Sodom and Camorra in a way that did not have anything to do with homosexuality at all. It was the custom of the day to show hospitality to strangers in their town. Regardless of how they were inhospitable, they were inhospitable, and that is the only thing they were guilty of.
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Carl Elfstrom
P.S. There is even a gay Christian denomination called MCCR, for crying out loud! They don't think the Bible says anything against homosexuality. And many transexuals don't even think they are gay. They think they are actually members of the opposite gender, in every other way but physical, and having a sex change is the only way they can truly be themselves. I don't guess prejudiced people ever talk to the people they are prejudiced against, to find out what they are about.
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Paul Robinson
I thought that it was interesting that you put the comment about Satanism, as only a few percent of the population realize that Satan is a term for the accuser of man. Also many that follow that path see themselves as their own God, and do enjoy making the world a better place for them and others. When they say Hail Satan they are affirming themselves. There are many different beliefs though, and even within the same faith. The one thing that I find most interesting about that path is that it teaches that people need to take responsibility for the life that they lead, and most people in the world are not willing to do that. They choose a path recklessly, and if things do not work choose something else. Instead of being taught that we should lay out and consider the good and bad that will happen with our choices. There is much truth in we create our own hell, as all one needs to do is see what is going on in the world today and see that this is quite clear. Our safety net does not work so well, as it is not enough for many that need it, yet there are many that use it because our laws, our ability to function as a part of society, and our skills that we need to function are never really clear.
Much of the time there are people that make decisions that cause much suffering in the world, such as getting rid of jobs here in the USA. To cut costs, and pollution of the environment. Resulting in suffering here and where those industries moved to. Instead of training people to be functional in a new system, and updating our industries to be cleaner and more efficient. We must keep in mind that many used to have the ability to figure out how to support themselves, yet for many now days it is not that easy as it ever has been in the past. People could learn a trade and that would allow them to be a functional part of society for life. Since this is for the most part gone, we need our safety net along with free training for people for life. Higher education used to be next to free, now it is for profit and with it student loans. Many say that this is a Christian Country, but we have forsaken our neighbors and our families throughout the country. We are more worried about what is someones sexuality, and abortions . Than things that really matter such as the basics of life, and that is for people to be able to carve out a place for themselves in this world, and we are failing at this more than ever.
It used to be when someone such as with homosexuality and other things, they were really not all that talked about. Neither was the affairs of people such as the president, and to prove this look at the press on John F Kennedy when he was in office. Next to nothing was released on the many affairs that he had, but that is completely different today.
I also agree with what the pastor said about Sodom and Gomorrah not being condemned about sexuality, as even if it is an abomination it is nothing compared to the way that they were treating each other overall. It brings up things such as Usury, abuse, slavery, and many other ills of society that we are accepting of that are wrong according to far more books than just the Holy Bible. Those things that turn honest hard working people into slaves to others that are wrong are the primary reasons that those cities fell. Just as is what has been happening to this country for quite some time. We are a nation of war, and profit from war. The list goes on and on. Then to top it off America is the #1 exporter of porn in the world.
My personal view on Homosexuality is that it is something that needs to be discussed and open with ONLY those that are involved. Also children should not be forced to know about sexuality be to straight, gay or whatever until they become old enough to deal with it emotionally in an adult manner. Sex in any form should not be forced on anyone, and that is one of the other things about slavery that people do not like to talk about.
I'm sure that you and others will agree that one of the biggest problems today, is people in the world picking a topic to polarize people and get their attention, just because they do not want to deal with the really far more important things in the world that need to be talked about and worked on for the benefit of everyone so that we are able to survive as people, as societies, and countries. We do not need to look too far back to see what uncontrolled immigration into countries in the past has done to countries. Also it is better that people immigrate to countries that the majority of people have their same personal values and beliefs. The melting pot theory only works for some groups but not all groups, and hopefully this does not need to be further explained.
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Don
"I know some will say that is heresy, and that the Bible is sacred and the written word of God can not be changed."
Anyone calling themselves a Christian would or should say this, as it is clearly stated in the Bible that not one word or letter is to be changed. Unless they don't believe the Bible, in which case they're not Christian.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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Val jester
You have misapplied Matt 5:18.
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Carl Elfstrom
And still another interpretation.
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flugo
Don: A Christian is a person who IS, not just a person who DOES. IS passed from death unto life; IS in Christ. BEING a Christian is a 'positional' transformation by repentance and commitment to Jesus. The 'DO-ING' should result from the BEING. Let' not confuse the two very important distinctions. It's too bad we Christians don't evidence our BEING by more Christ-like DO-INGS.
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Dragon Priest
A god that condemns his creation is not the real GOD. A god that requires hate is not the real GOD. GOD is LOVE, and incapable of hating. Christianity professes love but requires intolerance, and condemnation. That is why I AM NOT one of these evangelist christians who do not follow the true GOD. Judgement is reserved sorely to Source.
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Don
"A god that condemns his creation is not the real GOD."
So the God of the Bible is not the real God. Interesting...
Where is this "real god" hiding out? No one has ever seen it.
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Dragon Priest
If you study and seek, in the bible the OT god and the NT god are 2 different things. In the OT, when Moses went to the mountain he came back and had horns and was forced to wear a veil. It freaked them out. Why would that "god" give him horns? I will suggest it wasn't god. In the NT Jesus talks about the "father" he never said he was god. I can tell you about that but will not. The Source of all is so full of mercy that boggles the mind. I am spiritual not religious.
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Don
"The Source of all is so full of mercy that boggles the mind." The Source of all? Any evidence for this "source"?
"I am spiritual not religious"
I'm not honest, but you're interesting!
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Val jester
If you seek him you will find him.
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Tj
Another moron. Get gone
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Carl Elfstrom
There are many different religions in this world, and every one of them have their own god, or divine source, higher power, et cetera. Christianity and its god are only one of many. It's also the only religion I'm familiar with that thinks everyone should belong to the same religion, and believe in the same god. Nobody else cares what anyone else believes in, and some religions only let certain people join. For instance, you can't be initiated into my religion, Wicca, through mere belief. It takes a substantial amount of training, traditionally a year and a day, just to begin. Initiation means simply "to begin". And you haven't begun something until you begin it. And training for initiation doesn't get us off the hook. Being Wiccan is a lifelong learning process, along what we call "The well-worn path. Our path isn't meant for most, but only those who are called to it. Blessed be!
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Leslie Gray
There is also the fact that Wiccans do not proselitize. There are no recruiting drives. Each of us found our way on our own.
I literally followed a light in a dark forest.
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ET
God is in the eye of the beholder.
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Lionheart
Totally agree. Hail soccer!
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Carl Elfstrom
The All is everywhere, and in everything, for all exists within the mind of the All, according to hermetic philosophy. That makes a lot more sense to me than anything else I've heard on the subject.
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Larry Copeland
What did God tell Noah ? I’m gonna Destroy man I am sad I created him ☹️
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Lionheart
Yep, a totally inept, genocidal, idiot, having a temper tantrum.
Thank goodness he’s all myth!
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Carl Elfstrom
I wonder if Larry Copeland is related to Kenneth Copeland. I used to enjoy listening to him many years ago, on the radio, when I was trying to be a Christian.
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flugo
Rev Paul: God 'incapable of hating'? Why don't you do your home work before spewing nonsense?! Psalm 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, Leviticus 20:23, and John 3:36 are just a FEW instances of God's hatred, wrath! Shame on you for peddling inaccuracies!
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flugo
So God's 'incapable of hating', eh? Numerous instances show how academically deficient you are! Leviticus 20:23, Psalm 119:163, John 3:36, Psalm 11:5, are among MANY times that evidence God's justifiable hatred.
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flugo
'rev' appall: You say God is 'incapable of hating'. Well, either you are a liar or God is!
In Psalm 11:5 God hates the wicked; John 3:36 speaks of the wrath of God; In Proverbs 6:16-19 God hates many things; Malachi 2:16 shows that He hates divorce; In Psalm 10:31 God hates the coveter. There are many more instances of the holy, righteous and loving God hating, abhorring, and finding activities (homosexuality, for instance) abominable.
You'd save yourself from embarrassment by doing your 'homework' before posting such drivel.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Flugo Marx, Bible writers' saying that "God hated this, that or the other thing" and His actually having done so are two entirely different things because they didn't speak for God anymore than you and your ilk speak for God, though they sure as Hell tried like Hell to do so, the same as you and your ilk sure as Hell try like Hell to do so today!! It didn't work for them and it doesn't work for you!! If God (if He even exists!) isn't a schizophrenic, then "He" can't be love, as one passage of Scripture tells us that "He" is, while also going around hating all of these things and people and promoting and comnanding hate in human beings, too, because that is a logical contradiction!! You certainly aren't able to understand that, but it's still true and just common sense!!
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Jack Lam
Those against him are non Christians ,and don't stand on our Bible .aman.
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Don
Those against him are tired of spineless pieces of trash hiding their cowardly hate behind a holy book. The Bible is full of lies and evil acts, as I'm sure you are aware.
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Lea Weisenbach
?
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Lea Weisenbach
This was for Dons statement
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Agreed.
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Tj
The apostasy in the country against Christian's is exponentially growing . It doesn't matter if you don't believe in Jesus Christ or the bible. God believes in you and he left a message in our DNA to prove it. If you don't believe that God and the devil, Heaven and hell, think again. Satan been programming you since birth you moron. Wake up before you are cast into the lake of fire, and burned over and over alive never seeing death. Eternity is a long time to be tormented. Find Jesus Christ before its to late. Also once saved always saved is a lie that will lead you to TLOFire.
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Lionheart
You’re right. The message left in my DNA was “Get out of religion while you still have a brain”. It took a while for me to find the message, but boy did it sink in once I found it.
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The Doctor
Lets see posting the same tripe as minister post. Ill make a mental note you are just another sock used to try and artificially bolster your apparent support.
So Bob FL, Flugo, Minister post and now Tj. I always felt only the mentally ill could fall for christian teachings, but had no idea it included someone with alternate identity order.
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Larry Copeland
You are a Satanic follower aren’t you?
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Leslie Gray
I find it educational that I've only ever seen people lasting claim to christian faith going around demeaning and judging the beliefs of others when there are multiple very clear prohibitions against such acts to be found throughout the holy book they all profess so loudly to believe in.
A true believer does not cherry pick the parts that support their beliefs for the sake of their own comfort.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Larry Copeland, if by "Satanic follower" (and Satanists aren't followers or sheep, but leaders!), you mean someone who thinks for himself and doesn't just moo and amble along with the herd, who has a sense of humor and and an imagination, and isn't afraid of being considered "evil" or "sinful" by some people (as even Jesus was by the scribes and Pharisees: "he casts out devils by the power of Beelzebub"), then count me into that club, too!! Being thought "evil" or "sinful" by some people and actually being so are two entirely different things! In fact, if these kinds of people who call others "evil" wrongly aren't saying that about you, you aren't doing and being what you should be doing and being.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Correction: just "and an imagination" and leave out the other "and" for using in another post.
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Larry Copeland
How do you know?
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Don
How do I know? Because I can read. You've read the Bible, right? You're aware of the nasty, vile, cowardly actions of the "god" character, right?
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Carl Elfstrom
Some of us former Christians don't have anything against Jesus at all. I, for one, think Jesus became one with and is one with the creator, and so did Buddha. I even sometimes include Jesus in my prayers, along with God and Goddess in various forms. I include Jesus in my pantheon of gods, but am not a Christian, and don't live my life based on what the people who wrote the Bible thought was the right way to live. Having read the Bible quite thoroughly I am thoroughly convinced that its authors, and many of the characters they wrote about, were mentally I'll, indecent, and immoral, to note some of their finer attributes.
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Reginald Rook
Scared of commitment much
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Don
" I did not want to leave, I did not quit, and I was willing to stay."
Lying sack of trash. If you were ACTUALLY willing to stay, you would have removed your vile, hate-filled non Christian message. Instead you doubled down on your filthy intolerance and got what you deserved.
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ET
Intolerance takes many forms.
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Larry Copeland
You are right it’s a non Christian church! Know what God said he would do to non Believers ?Satan knows ?
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Don
Yes, the cowardly Bible god is so terrified of non believers he wants them all killed. Which tells you all you really need to know about this two-faced spineless "god". Thank goodness it's all a work of fiction.
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Val jester
And why are you on a church/pastor site?
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Don
You seem confused. This is a ULC site, not some fundamentalist Christian echo chamber. Why are YOU here? This is not a place to spew Christian hate and intolerance.
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Carl Elfstrom
The ULC and being a minister of the ULC have nothing to do with Christianity. We even have atheists and Satanists who are ordained ULC ministers among us, who belong on this non-church site just as much as the rest of us.Blessed be! You won't hear that in a Christian church either, but you will in a coven of Witches, Blessed be your feet that have carried you here to hear this message.
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Val jester
Do you think you are tolerant?
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Don
More tolerant than jerks who teach to murder non believers...you know, like Jesus. Luke 19:27
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ShaneWP1988
Do you know what a parable is?
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Lionheart
Ohhhhh got it!
So the genocidal flood, and the infanticidal deaths, just to name two, were all parables. I didn’t know that.
I’m trying to get my head around the parable of stoning. That one’s too deep for me.
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Don
"Do you know what a parable is?"
Indeed I do! A parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. In my two examples, the "moral lessons" were to BEAT SLAVES and MURDER NONBELIEVERS.
Do you know what a lame excuse is?
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Lionheart
?
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John Owens
Like, "the Fox and the Grapes", "Goldilocks and the Bears", " Chicken Little," "Brer Rabbit and de Tar Baby," etc. Generally, a parable is a didactic lesson, using simple things easy for a child to understand, to illustrate larger, vaguely related principles.
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Don
"a parable is a didactic lesson, using simple things easy for a child to understand"
FINALLY!!! Thank you for admitting you know what a parable is! Now stop using parables to excuse immorality in Scripture, since you KNOW it's a lame cowardly excuse. You just admitted it.
Thanks again for your honesty.
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John Owens
Nobody here used parables to excuse immorality in scripture, Donny. You just made all that up, and refuse to admit you are wrong. We agree on a few things, but you are so adamant about always being on the moral AND intellectual high ground, that there is no way you CAN be, about everything. You might be, if you weren't so wishy-washy, and would just keep quiet sometimes, and stop using the same boring insults over and over.
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Katelynne Victoria Shouse
He got what he deserved.....good riddance to bad rubbish!!!
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Tj
The apostasy in the country against Christian's is exponentially growing . It doesn't matter if you don't believe in Jesus Christ or the bible. God believes in you and he left a message in our DNA to prove it. If you don't believe that God and the devil, Heaven and hell, think again. Satan been programming you since birth you moron. Wake up before you are cast into the lake of fire, and burned over and over alive never seeing death. Eternity is a long time to be tormented. Find Jesus Christ before its to late. Also once saved always saved is a lie that will lead you to TLOFire.
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flugo
Right on!
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The Doctor
Ah yes the if you commit an act deemed a sin by an unseen omnipoetent being that supposedly had the power to make all things as it saw fit will punish you eternally for a transient act that may be minor or severe, but equally punished.
Seriously do you christian apologists ever think about how spiteful and over reacting such a being would be?
Do you ever consider the concept of the punishment should fit the crime? Why should etenral punishment be the catch all end for every so called sinner?
Because just saying if a child molester and a serial shoplifter end up in the same fire pit then calling god the great judge just drips of irony.
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Val jester
Do you know how easy it is to commit your life to Christ? To have a personal relationship with him? Once that occurs you will not be punished for any of your transgressions. It’s that easy.
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Don
No thanks, no decent moral person would commit to a madman who said it was okay to beat slaves (Luke 12:47) and murder nonbelievers (Luke 19:27). And shame on all who do! Shame!
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Carl Elfstrom
The Christians on this blog are making Satanism sound very appealing. Do y'all know know how easy it is to sell your souls, and receive an abundance of wonderful things in your lives for doing so. In unison, let's all shout " Hail Satan!!!"
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John Owens
Luke 12:47 does not say it is okay to beat slaves, but is speaking in a parable about an evil employee who abused his fellow workers getting his comeuppance. The same thing would be applied to 19:27. They are both records of parables spoken, not literal occurrences.
Just saying.
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Don
John Owens' parable excuse is almost as pathetic as the "out of context" excuse. Just saying.
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John Owens
It is not an excuse. it is a fact. Shows you aren't so dedicated to fact as you like to pretend.
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Don
"It is not an excuse. it is a fact"
It is a worn-out decades old excuse. Christian apologetics. Excuses for what we now know are either false claims, examples of hideous immorality, or contradictions in the Bible. A PATHETIC excuse, and one that needs to be exposed for the cowardly evasion it is every time someone uses it.
You're welcome.
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John Owens
It's true, then. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
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flugo
Owens: Nope. 'Denial' may not be an Egyptian river, but 'denial' IS an all-expenses-paid ticket to hell! Denying the sacrificial work Jesus did on the cross for all mankind is eternal peril, everlasting regret, forever masochism.
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John Owens
Death.
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Karla
I thought this blog/forum was for all faiths, religions, spirituality and not just Christianism. Why speak to others as if they are already one religion or another without fully understanding what it is … that the person practices and believes? I feel It was wrong of you to assume that all or most people are Christian, because that is the Belief and stance that you hold or were taught. I am Esoteric Pagan. I do not devout my life to Jesus. However I will not deny his Exceptional Existence. I do not believe in a devil, that I feel is man made to scare people into following Christianity as a way of life, so that man has more control over the People. I feel my preference comes from listening and watching how all the other religions behave or don't, just as others do the same to find their place in all this existence. I devout my life to One Supreme Creator and The Natural Sciences that have occurred from that one creator element and how all of that is related to me and how it created me. The Oneness felt from EVERYTHING, not just being with the right people or group that thinks alike. There is something much greater than all of us out there. I cannot limit it to just one deity or one thought or one action or one name, as my truth. There are several ways to walk, to greet the afterlife when our time comes. Perceiving Ultimate Truth is an inner journey that begins from our first breath to our last. It isn't who you believe in or how long you have believed it, it is what you know by intuition, and how what you learned, was applied to your life while living it. Namaste'.
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ShaneWP1988
The only act on earth that can send you to the lake of fire, is your refusal to accept Yeshua's sacrifice for you. You don't go to hell for stealing or child molestation, even though they are sinful acts. You go to hell only because you chose to deny the gift of God, which is eternal life through Yeshua, his son.
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Lionheart
@Julian: Thanks for your very religiously indoctrinated statement. The only thing you are right about is that without my father I wouldn’t be here. RIP Mom & Dad.
Really deep down I don’t believe, Julian, so you are wrong there.
As for sitting down in a dark room and talking to an imaginary person, if it’s okay with you, I’ll pass on that one. Not only does it sound psychologically crazy, but I have much better things to do.
Please feel free to talk to anyone you want in a dark room, that isn’t really there, but please make sure you mention the word “God” when you do it, otherwise anyone overhearing you might end up taking you away and putting you in a dark room for a long time.
If that did happen, at least you would have your imaginary friend with you.
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Don
Ignorant superstitious threats have no place on this page. Thanks so much.
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flugo
Shane: Excellent, concise and Scriptural!! Well said!
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Julian Rivera
Too all the non believers in the father with out him you would not be here today, or have what you have, if you do not have faith, or believe in him or his son, and Holy Spirit, I beg you please sit down in a drak room and talk to him , , I know deep down inside you , you really believe, you just afraid to admit it.
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Matthew AKA Michael
ShaneWP988, your belief is so misguided it truly saddens my heart. Please release your anger. No one has been or will be dammed for not believing. It is the acts created by your own heart that shall you into judgement of yourself. Our God is a Loving God. Open your heart to that.
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Sylvie Hector
Hi Shane and everyone, l perfectly agree with what you said but we should also remember what Paul said in 1Cor 9:20 about the kingdom of God.
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Kat
God is a loving God indeed, that is why he chose to set a law on all who exist. He gave you the choice to obey the law or disobey. He loves each of us far too much to cast anyone into hell. He simply gives you the choice. He also gave you the insight to know inside your own heart to which way you are headed simply listen.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Shane WP1988, nobody goes to Hell because there is no such place, since God isn't as spiteful and vindictive as many people are and wouldn't torment people for all eternity or allow them to be tormented for all eternity or "He" would be worse than Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and all of the other mass murderers and torturers throughout history put together!!!
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A Pena
You are correct, sir
https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/how-long-does-hell-burn
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Pastor Dave
It is good to see the explanations below. It is so very wrong to quote Bible passages out of context. So easy to distort the truth. As I see it the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a form of fornication. But not for me to judge. We all suffer from original sin. It takes courage to come out of the closet. But homosexuality should not be worn like a badge of honor. I smile, knowing that such people will have to eventually answer to the Lord, not me. And likewise the church's indignation in firing this pastor means that they will have to stand before the Lord to explain their actions, not me. Meanwhile I will try my hardest to practice forgiveness with my fellow man and love him, as Christ loves me.
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Gina Hall
The Bible remains the official guide for all aspects of life and death. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God. Genesis 13:13 Choose which version you believe Man vs God - Life vs Death
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Lillian
Love vs. Money
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Lionheart
I’ll choose Man being as man throughout history has created all the gods, even the Abrahamic one.
As for choosing a book, I think I still like the Harry Potter one’s best. They are less gory, good for children to read, great story line, definitely less blood thirsty, and good always wins out in the end.
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The Rev. Brother Robert Barker
Minister Post: Nonsense and balderdash.
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Alicia
Minister Post....before you call someone ELSE a "moron", you need to make sure that your comments are correct. Where did you learn that it's correct to use an apostrophe for a plural ("Christian's" in your post should read "Christians").
It's also very kind of you to push YOUR beliefs on others. Must be nice to blame "Satan" for any wrong that you Christians do. Personally, being Pagan, I must admit my own mistakes and learn not to make those mistakes again.
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Leslie Gray
Blessed be.
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Helen Byers
Amen!
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A Pena
Some ministers unknowingly mislead:
https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/how-long-does-hell-burn
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A Pena
Doesn't everlasting fire mean that hell will be burning ceaselessly and eternally?
There are some Bible verses that may appear to say that. Let us look at some of these verses.
"Everlasting" Bible texts
In Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."
Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."
Other Bible texts
Before we make a Bible doctrine from these verses, we need to see if there are other verses that speak of the punishment of the wicked.
First let us go to Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."
These verses tell us that the wicked will be burned up, burned to ashes.
In another place the Bible says in Psalms 37:10, 11, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look diligently for his place, but it shall be no more."
Jude 7 makes this subject very plain. "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner, having given themselves over to sexually immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, yet the Bible says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. How can this be explained? It means that these cities were completely burned, until there was nothing left.
What does everlasting mean?
There is another way to determine the meaning of the word eternal or everlasting.
In English these words mean that the fire will go on forever, but in the Greek it has a different meaning. Dr. Basil Atkinson explains it this way.
"When the adjective aionios, meaning everlasting is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the act, not the process. The phrase everlasting punishment is comparable to everlasting redemption and everlasting salvation, both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through the process of punishment forever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun 'life' is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus life itself is eternal."
Basil F. C. Atkinson, Life and Immortality. An Examination of the Nature and Meaning of Life and Death as they are revealed in the Scriptures (Taunton, England, n. n.), p.101.
God is love
The Bible says, God is love, 1 John 4:8. God loves His enemies. As the soldiers were nailing Jesus to the cross, He prayed, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do (Luke 23:34). As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel (Ezekiel 33:11).
God cannot allow sin, crime and violence to continue to cause suffering and death in this world. But He is not one to torture His children. So He does the most loving thing He can do, He destroys them eternally. The Bible says, "he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time" (Nahum 1: 9).
You may wish to learn more through the Discover Bible Lessons on our Bible studies section.
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Don
Ezekiel 23:20 Go preach your hate somewhere else.
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Carl Elfstrom
I thought those burning scriptures were the best ones for rolling joints, but they don't burn eternally. They just seem to take a long time, while the perception of time is slower on that kind of buzz.
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John Owens
Note: Everlasting punishment doesn't necessarily mean everlasting fire, but everlasting death, from which there is no resurrection. The smoke goes up forever and ever-- that's what smoke does if there is no wind blowing-- it goes up. It doesn't say that anyone will burn forever and ever. Unquenchable fire doesn't mean it burns forever either. It just means it is not put out before it consumes all of the fuel.
Death means the absence of life. Not eternal life in misery.
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Dr. David
All of what you wrote is only true if you believe in God and follow Christianity. According to you every other religion in the world is wrong and they will all go to hell. If that is the case that is where I want to go as the most holy will be there and the hypocrites will be in heaven, or so they think. It will be the other way around.
No one has ever been able to concretely show me that God exists, the Bible does not count as all know it was written by men who were trying to get people to follow them, in other words a slanted view.
For me, I will continue to be a humanist and my good acts will be to help my fellow man, not to keep a list of what I do so I can get into "heaven."
Peace,
DAG
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Kat
Why would you need any person to show you God exist. Your walk with God is very personal and private. Seek him yourself. Ask him to show you he exist. Don't stop with just one book read every book. Read as many religious books from every religion on earth. You seek him like you would water in a desert and he will come to you. I love you David Griffith.
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Lionheart
Kat, why should I want to believe, without evidence, that an infanticidal capricious god exists?
Who in their right mind would want to follow a mythical deity with such poor morals as to condone slavery and stoning people to death?
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Lillian
What's lost in this conversation is who the bible includes among the unsaved. Most Christians conveniently ignore the fact that the wealthy masters of the earth have also been condemned. They will wither and burn like summer grass. They will find the gates of heaven closed to them, as small as the eye of a needle. You cannot serve two masters: you must choose, God . . . or Money. Do those Christians who vote for sinful men of wealth and power really believe in the whole bible? Or only the parts that meet their political and emotional needs?
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DAN LEWIS
Real men seek the truth. You're content with ancient lies.
Religion comforts...and cripples. History is clear on this.
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Steven
Minister Post
Just a word by way of question. Do you think your calling Katelynne Victoria Shouse a moron was a Christ like thing to do? Could you not have gotten your point of disagreement with her over without being rude and nasty by calling her a negative name? Where was the LOVE OF CHRIST in that? Does not Christian mean Christ like?
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profz@sio.midco.net
Very true. How does one justify such verbal attacks on a person just because they disagree?
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JustMe
Where was he called a moron?
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ShaneWP1988
I would encourage you to study more on the subject of eternal conscious punishment. The Bible is very clear on this subject, the wicked are burned up, cut off, destroyed, be no more, consumed, ashes under the feet of the saints. The Bible does not teach that hell is a place that the damned are tortured forever. It's called the second death for a reason... The soul that sins, it shall die! Read John 3:16! The theology is in the most famous scripture! The contrast is clear! Either you perish, or are granted eternal life!
Please, don't teach false doctrine to the church. If people are going to church to escape an eternity in torment, they go for the wrong reasons! Stop spreading this false doctrine!
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Jessica
What if "God" and "Satan" were concepts that could easily be accepted by ancient cultures to explain the differences between "good" and "bad" and to create a fear that someone was always watching what you do?
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John
Satan is an image taken from pagan deities jumbled together and been proclaimed as satan. Do your historical religious studies. Plus the name Lucifer comes from the Babylonian pantheon and is a sun deity not an evil deity. Morons like you are ignorant of the truth
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Big O'really
Who's been brainwashed,the person who didn't go to a set place every Sunday to get that pounded into their head or the person who did? Got yourself a conundrum there.
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Larry Copeland
You just told God what to do who gave you the right to do that Satan ? You are not a Believer ☹️
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Carl Elfstrom
Larry, it sounds like you enjoy communicating with evil spirits. That's too evil for me. I only seek to associate with and be in the presence of good or at least decent people, and good discarnate entities. Attracting negativity or negative energies upon yourself will bring more negativity upon you. In summoning negative or destructive entities, you can expect them to stay with you a lot longer than you want. And they will seek to influence you too.
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Carl Elfstrom
Could Pastor Hoke become a ULC minister? He wouldn't, would he? Let's hope for the best.
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Shane
No because he has real credentials.
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A Pena
So shall you
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Don
Ignorant cowardly threats have no place in this page.
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Donna Jardine
Maybe we as a humanity all ( individually and collectively ) need to go deeper than trying to be caught in the crossfire of whos ideas are right and whos ideas are wrong. and admit none of us know anything but our false ego selves and we are all struggling souls trying to find our ways out of this darkness we have created.. It has been said.Problems cannot be solved at the level they were created.. We all have love in our Hearts...In all humility can we not find a better way and set a goal to reach a higher ground.from where we are now...Can we not start to remember that the great teachers have always been on the earth to lead us and that through time their messages may have been twisted to suit the duel egoic thought systems of the world...They all brought one message only....Love which has no opposite...and not one of us are without love inside ourselves..Can we not all start.to lay down our differences and imperfections and ask our higher guidance to show us the way because we are lost and cannot clearly see the way past all our grievances to love.all of our humanity...
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Emanuel Shajhef Quinton
Regardless of your believe system, they follow a specific doctrine. A religion is not a facebook page which can be changed from day to day. Everything and everywhere you go there are rules that must be followed. Even you have certain criteria by which you wish everyone to follow if they wish to come into your house. You may not agree with the Bible, or even organized religion... but for those who do they must follow the rules of that religion... or find a faith or no faith at all that they can agree with. To say that he got what he deserved and good riddance is very disrespectful... but not to the person you are berating... you are disrespecting yourself. To each their own, and if they do like where they are... they are free to go elsewhere. ;) I find it disheartening that rather than leaving their religion they would rather change it. Changing and amending a religion devalues the religion. It ceases to be religion and becomes more of a club where the members can vote on what they want to keep or cast aside.
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Michelle C
This wouldn’t happen in a PCUSA Presbyterian Church. Many less progressive Presbyterian churches have transferred their association so that now they are aligned with more conservative groups like ECO. Please don’t lump all Presbyterian groups together. Presbyterian Church USA is the collective of Presbyterian churches that are more loving and accepting to ALL of God’s children.
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shaunt
Pretty sure the WORD of God is to love everyone. It is HIS job to judge and let Him and only HIM judge us. In the meantime it is our duty (or not) to preach love and respect for others. Regardless if we believe in vs their beliefs...
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Karla
This is a delicate situation. Both are able to think and speak (as they wish within reason) under the law of freedom of speech. Both are able to design their own gospel within themselves, fruited by their own labor of thought and contemplations to draw their own summaries. Outwardly however, a quixotic comes to my mind of, "Dress to please others, Eat to please yourself", by Benjamin Franklin. I take that phrase two ways. The obvious of eating whatever you want but dress professionally/respectfully if in a public setting.. or, the second way I see it is, Keep yourself respectable while in the company of others, minding your manners and etiquette, but what you do in your own home or space can be of your own liking and choice. However, I would feel it could have been stated inside the church sermon instead, for the congregation to determine how to perceive it, then go from that point. But, because he chose to have it where all could read it, there were bound to be repercussions from this because not all people think godly let alone, spiritually.
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Rev. Joshua de Kooker
No child has ever been born out of the backside of a man so stop bluffing yourself homosexuality is just a purversion of God intentions for man. Think man!!!!!!!! God gave you the abillity to reason for yourself
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Helen Sabin
Has JENNER had gender ID surgery done yet? Then is he really a she? can he still get an erection? Then he is NOT a she. Can he live without all the drugs and hormones it takes to maintain being a "woman?" Then he is NOT a she. The bible says two genders. male or female. given the fact that jenner cannot live as a woman without medical help, then is he really a she? Hmmm? can he reproduce children? Then is he a she?
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Ken Dixon
I mean no offense, but you have a lot to learn about the transgender condition.
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Helen Sabin
Katelynne - Aren't you rushing to juegment? you are not acting as a true christian andmaking judgements that belong only to GOD. who is to say YOU are right? You are not realizing that the pastor can think the way he does because of freedom of thought. WHY NOT debate him and PROVE YOUR POINT? what if the congregation decided to act on you for acting out against the pastor? Would YOu get what you deserve and be considered bad rubbish?
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Ely
There is a difference between practicing your faith and spewing hate speech. This pastor made a totally unnecessary statement that hurt more than it helped. Christianity is supposed to be about healing in the light of the ministry of Jesus Christ, yet here we are perpetuating the same centuries old cycle of exclusion and isolation. Culture does change, and the spiritual needs and realities of people change with that. Rather than deny this existence are refusing to validate the lives of LGBTQ+ people, Christians should be asking themselves why they would want to act in a judgemental, holier than thou attitude in the first place. He who is without sin shall cast the first stone, less he be judged first.
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Jamie
Agree...it is not our right to judge what others decide what to do with their life...The message from the Christian point of view is love the neighbor....there was no stipulations to that love.
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Richard Poehlman
Jenner is a man and will always be a man in this lifetime.
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Bill Robinson
I agree. His attitude is not very Christian. Maybe his bible is different in mine but I cannot find a single place in mine where Jesus ever condemned homosexuality or homosexuals.
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Randy Eriksen
You’re an idiot! Bruce Jenner was born a man, he’ll die a man and no surgery thought up by man will change that! I applaud that Pastor for showing the depth of his belief
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Shannon Long
The Bible does not use the word Homosexuality, it does however use the description of Homosexuality. LEVITICUS 18:20-23, LEVITICUS 20:11-14, PROVERBS 17:15, DEUTERONOMY 22:5, 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11, GALATIANS 5:19-21, ROMANS 1:26-27
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LEVITICUS 18:20-23, LEVITICUS 20:11-14, PROVERBS 17:15, DEUTERONOMY 22:5, 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11, GALATIANS 5:19-21, ROMANS 1:26-27