During Pride month, lifeguards on Los Angeles beaches are supposed to raise rainbow flags to celebrate the occasion.
This year, however, one lifeguard refused. He argued that raising an LGBTQ+ Pride flag – or even having his subordinates raise one – is a violation of his Christian faith.
The lifeguard in question is also a fire captain (firefighters occasionally serve as lifeguards during the summer).
Due to his religious conflict, Captain Jeffrey Little asked for a religious accommodation from LA County’s Board of Supervisors to ensure that he would not personally have to raise or lower the Pride flag at his lifeguard station.
Religious Exemption Granted
The county granted Little’s request, exempting him from this duty.
Apparently, that wasn't enough. Little is now suing the county, demanding even greater protections. The issue? Lifeguard facilities are required by the county to raise the Pride flag during June, and as a captain, the flag would still have to be raised during his shift by a subordinate.
Despite the fact that he won’t be physically raising the flag himself, Little is asking for assurances that no LGBTQ+ flags are erected by anyone under his watch, either.
Little says the policy conflicts with his “traditional Christian beliefs regarding the moral illicitness of same-sex activity, the immutability of sex regardless of gender identity, and the view that all people are children of God regardless of their skin color.”
He also asked to man one of a handful of lifeguard stations that do not have the proper flagpole and thus cannot hoist the Pride flag. Four of the beaches he’d be working at are not properly equipped to hoist the flag, but one is.
Little’s lawsuit argues that he should be granted “full and complete" exemption from flying the Pride flag, either himself or on his watch.
"No employee should be expected to abandon their faith when entering the workplace and unfortunately, I felt backed into a corner where my faith was incompatible with the requirements of my job,” the lawsuit states.
Lifeguard Off Duty
However, the county’s position seems clear: Little was already granted an exception, and dissented anyway.
Though they’re largely keeping quiet on the matter, at least one fire official had strong words for Little and others refusing to fly the Pride flag.
“Last year we faced challenges with compliance at several Department facilities,” wrote Fire Chief Anthony Marrone in a note distributed through the fire department. “I want to be intentional and clear that compliance is not optional.”
The lawsuit is still pending.
What do you make of the case? When it comes to religious exemptions for Pride activities, where should the line be drawn?
153 comments
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It seems right for them to only slap down the masochists, Daniel. Others might be offended, and sue over that.
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John Ash McCormick
Rev Ned, Very right.
Also, far, FAR too many people aren't happy unless they get to tell other people how to live.
I don't mind the complaining so much.
But I really wish the others would read Matthew 7:1-6 several times every day.
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Rev Ned
Some people aren’t happy, unless they have something to complain about.
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Donald G Magel
Fyi lifeguard; you cannot catch gay. Unless you think you might want to and are not too sure about yourself.
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Keith Graham Ainsworth
What guarantee do we have that he would put as much effort into saving a gay person as he would a straight person. He needs to be relieved of his position
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I don't think anyone can tell the difference between a drowning gay person, and a drowning straight person.
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Russel A. Kester
The drowning gay person would be wearing rainbow a swimsuit.
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William M Moore
The captain's lawsuit will go nowhere. The county has already exempted him from having to raise the pride flag at his worksite. His suit is an attempt to force his beliefs on county employees who report to him. This is not permissible under the law. They must remain free to raise, or not to raise, the flag as their beliefs dictate.
If the captain's faith is so fragile that merely viewing a pride flag causes him to waiver, perhaps his time would be better spent reading the Gospels. Christ teaches us to "love our neighbor as ourselves." I don't see much love exhibited in his lawsuit.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Why anybody would kowtow to a nonexistent sky daddy is beyond belief. If anyone believes being gay is a choice and had nothing to do with their sky daddy then they don’t understand the xtian concept of a god that created everything!
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Gary Michael Steele
Maybe he needs to change jobs or move to Florida.
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David M Hines
So now it's not enough that he be exempt. Other people in his vicinity must behave in a manner he approves.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
He sounds like one of those butch, dominant, stud daddies, doesn't he?
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Ronald Edward Howlett
I find all of these answers very perplexing. This person says they are a Christian, however, they also seem to be of the belief that they are privileged enough to judge someone other than themselves. The Lord they answer to will, no doubt, ask them what right they have to judge another for their beliefs or lifestyles. That is GODS RIGHT and no one but HIS. The supreme court is in the same BOAT. THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE, NOR TO DEMAND A PERSON CONFORM TO THEIR THINKING. AGAIN, only ONE GOD HAS THAT RIGHT. And to be clear THAT WOULD BE THE GOD OF ANY RELIGION.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
What's this HIM nonsense? How can someone be a god of all and only cater to males? Looks like half the story is missing.
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Russel A. Kester
Tecla, what a fun question. I can think of several responses. First Ronald used the term 'God' which is a male term so the male pronoun would be correct. Second, some ancient people posted a male sky God and a female earth goddess. And people associate God with above or out there. Third, our nation had Christianity as the dominant faith and English translations used male terms for the Hebrew and Christian God. Lastly, there can be only one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deity who happens to be male. And why not? The angels are all male. The devil is male. The demons are all male. Seems it's not just a man's world, but a man's heaven and hell too. LOL. Or it could simply be that the Devine is neither male nor or female, but we are and many if not most languages use male terms for either just males or a mixed group made up of males and females, reserving the female term just for women because they're just so special. It's just one of those peculiarities of mankind. But don't despair, Wiccan practitioners pray to the Goddess and worship the Goddess and once in a while pay paltry lip service to the God but mostly as an after thought. Everyone gets to choose.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Theyight be talking about the gay male god, or demi-god. I'm not sure which one it is. It depends on their particular pantheon of gods and goddesses. There are so many to choose from.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Although I agree with your sentiments. I am just about fed up with this "he" crap.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
But don't you think calling him a she sounds campy, and he would sue over that too?
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Rev Ned
It appears that a lot of “Christians” are weak and afraid of any ideas ideas that go contrary to their grooming.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
A lot of people seem to be missing the point here and thinking he's suing to not be forced to raise a Pride flag. He's not. He's suing to not let other people raise a Pride flag because he doesn't like seeing them.
Basically he's whining about the existence of free speech and freedom to practice religion that isn't his. What a spoiled brat.
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April Camille Berg
I disagree with this whole “pride” thing. Not just the LGBTQ+, but also any other “pride” thing. Not because I'm for or against it, but because it’s making a big deal about it. As an African American of mixed ethnicity, it doesn’t feel good to have some month dedicated to being African American. It’s like saying I’m not just an American. Making a big deal about something is the exact opposite of normalizing it. I DONT NEED A FLAG OR A MONTH TO SHOW WHO I AM!!!
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Since themonastery.org doesn't (usually) include links to whatever it is that is being posted, I suggest that anyone that cares to understand the issues at play here google the following: 'LA fire department captain refuses to raise pride umbrella as a lifeguard'
From The Las Angles Daily News: "Last year, the county’s Board of Supervisors voted to require that many government buildings — including the facilities where Little worked at Will Rogers Beach, home to an LGBTQ-friendly section known as Ginger Rogers Beach — fly the Progress Pride Flag throughout June, which is Pride Month."
So the captain has been working this area for 22 years and never once complained about being assigned to guard a gay-friendly beach? All those gays, gay walking around, gay swimming happily, gay enjoying enjoying themselves, gay sun tanning their taut, muscular bodies, wearing their skimpy gay board shorts or their gay speedos, none of that ever bothered the captain until last year? All that gay-osity abounding on the beaches he guarded and was like, 'kewl'. But suddenly a gay pride flag is to be hoisted up on the back of his lifeguard recliner and NOW he's bothered by the gayness which is in strict conflict with his sudden religiosity? And all the gays on the beach never bothered him? Ever? Not one complaint about it? yeah no, the guy is bs-ing and being encouraged/backed by kkkristofascists and they will push to get it to the kkkristofascist supreme court jesters.
Naw this is just another kkkristofascist play to further create a sense of drama and persecution to further their aim of turning this nation into a kkkristofascist theocracy under kkkristofascist verson of sharia law.
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Rev Samantha Counihan
it has nothing to do with his "faith" hate speech isnt free speech, if hes gonna be a baby about it then dont work at a beach period
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Rev Samantha Counihan
also hes discriminating against gender identity which is illegal in all 52 states
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John Ash McCormick
Just for my information, please name the last two.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
There are only fifty states (including Commonwealths). The others are U.S. territories.
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John Ash McCormick
Thanks Carl, 50 is all I got too but I hadn't watched the nightly news for a few days and I was running out of fingers to count on.
But the fact that it could be in doubt is sort of disappointing when you think about it.
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Amber Fry
We are talking about celebrating equality VS religious right here. They really need to get a grip. They can believe what they want but they don't get to force it on everyone else. Don't care for the celebrations? Boycott the places that do and find somewhere else to be.
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John Casillo
A exceptional presideent may get one day out of the year and still may have to share it.......but queerdom gets a month...gee that seems fair
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Carly Danyel Cramblit
Have the boomers and Gen X raised a bunch of whiny cry babies? If you don’t like LGBTQ? don’t be a part of it. You don’t like a rainbow flag? don’t fly one. Grow up people.
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Christine Faye Murphy
We are living in the United States of America. The only flag that should be down on public property should be an American flag. People should feel free to fly whatever flag they want on their on property, but public lands should not be required to fly any symbol representing religious or political affiliations. We should not be FORCED to accept other people's beliefs or political agenda. If you live in America, you need to be respectful of American history and customs. If you go to another country, you need to be respectful of their customs.
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Douglas Alan Lawrence
We are ALL Gods Children, what ever our beliefs are. As long as we do not impose or forcibly change others. I am not the religion police and I wouldn’t force anyone to do the same. Our government has IN GOD WE TRUST, on our currency. So like it or not Government and religion are mixed together.
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John Ash McCormick
I beg your pardon... We Are All God's Children?
That is a rather large assumption on your part and one which I suspect many members here would object to..
BTW, that paper which has IN GOD WE TRUST printed on it keeps losing value an average of 4%/year. Sort of ironic if you think about it? Almost the same percentage of people who drop out of organized religions each year. it would be much higher if most of the immigrants from South America weren't Catholic.
Also Rev. Lawrence, you may have missed it but a great many "religious" people keep insisting that you can't believe anything the government tells you.
I'm not certain that relying on some slogan printed on the Dollar is good evidence for proof of any argument. The same money also seems to have a pyramid. but few people now believe in ISIS.
(Remember ISIS? she resurrected her husband and brother Osiris three days after he was killed by Set. the Egyptians were all about keeping it in the family.)
The floating eye above the pyramid is not merely a Masonic symbol but generally believed to be a symbol of the Illuminati.
You and I may not believe in either one but how do you decide which part of the printing on the dollar to believe and which to ignore as mere superstition?
Some people, in fact most who lack a large pile of throwing stones, seem to pick and choose parts of The Bible, mostly wanting to ignore Leviticus. but how do people decide what parts of anything controversial to believe and which to say no longer apply?
As always, I could be wrong.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I was one of God and Goddess ' children before I grew up. Now I'm one of God and Goddess ' men. And I choose every page of the bible when I rip them out and throw them in the trash can, except for the ones I use for rolling papers, when I want a really special kind of buzz.
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James Riggle-Johnson
They gave him a waiver, so he didn’t have to raise the flag himself. They aren’t forcing him to do anything. They said have someone else at your Lifeguard tower raise the flag, but that isn’t good enough. This is about one thing… wanting LGBTQ people to disappear. The religious right won’t be happy until there is no mention of them anywhere. They won’t be happy until they have all vanished from existence. That is never going to happen.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Not only that, James, but many members of the religious right are closet queens, in disguise.
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ServantOfJudgement
The rainbow is God's covenant with man to not flood the earth again.
Why on earth would a bible believing Christian raise a corrupted symbol of God's covenant? I don't ever hear of pride parade partakers praising God for his covenant when they raise the rainbow.
Consider the corrupted symbol of the cross, the inverted cross. These two are the same, the inverted cross and pride flag. Shall a bible believing Christian wear the inverted cross? Perhaps a pride inverted cross would be best.
Why don't you bible believing Christians go get a pride inverted cross T shirt, it'll please God to no end I'm sure. Amazon has them for 20 bucks.
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John Ash McCormick
Servant, I am always happy to see your viewpoints expressed here and I try to understand them. That was after God drowned all the children?
Of course that is your explanation of the rainbow.
Some people have also read Principia Mathematica (Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Matematica) and Opticks (about $4 in abebooks if you are interested - even some free PDFs but those may mostly be in the original Latin), and many suspect Newton's (not Russell and Whitehead's Principia which is written in symbols) explanation is pretty good too. It even explains how LASER surgery can save eyesight.
Of course Newton also saw you could get a rainbow with a piece of glass.
He thought it demonstrated how some things which appear to be only white are actually made up of many different colors.
You appear to believe everyone here believes everything you believe.
Besides Newton I could also recommend reading Wittgenstein and logical positivism but only after you read Schopenhauer.
Is it a bit narrow minded when people criticize Muslims for never reading anything but The Koran?
The current estimate is that there are about 4,000 different faiths and sects in the world today.
I think that is why The Monastery was created.
Of course I could be wrong - on the other hand, that ability to believe I could be wrong could be important.
I may be wrong about that also.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
excellent post, thoughts and that bit about being wrong? that's what separates the monkeys from the kkkristofascists; monkeys are born monkeys through no fault of their own, kkkristofascists choose to become monkeys.
taking the time to explain anything to someone who can only - literally - quote chapter and verse from their monkey bible is as useless as trying to explain keynesian economics to monkeys although I suspect monkeys could make greater headway into understanding keynesian economics than kkkristofascists could ever make in understanding that they, their ilk or their bible could ever be wrong
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ServantOfJudgement
That's right John, after God drowned all the wicked children with their mentors he gave the rainbow. The children were of the kind and quality that would rape and murder their own parents and grandparents. Not that dissimilar to how ours are becoming. They're willing to kill for an x box and it's no big deal. The entire population was of that quality. Our schools, social media, music industry, news outlets and governments are lock stepped in their mentoring. You and I will not be able to exhaust the number cases involving child rapists, murderers and anarchists. God on the other hand can.
That's not my explanation of the rainbow, that's the Bible's explanation of the rainbow, I'm just repeating it for the Christians here. It's nothing more than a pretty display fractal light to an unbeliever. As I said, my post isn't for you if you're not a Christian. I don't believe non Christians believe what I believe.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Actually every pride event I have been at has many Christian churches marching and they do have religious symbols. What church are you with? Westover Baptist? Even Jewish synagogues March and in case you don’t know it your Old Testament is the Torah
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James Riggle-Johnson
You haven’t been to enough Pride events, Servant. There are many churches who participate in HIS glory.
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Rev. BH
So the inverted cross, usually representing the anti-Christ or Satan, is the same as the gay pride flag? Would you like to add an S to LGBTQ+ for Satanists? Your "Christian" fear of and anger towards so many will indeed earn you judgement.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Judged Servant, it's not the same rainbow, but a totally different, non religious concept, which is obviously beyond your ability to comprehend, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you.
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Doggod
It is America and we are NOT FASCIST so if one wants to fly a hateful flag they can, If one does not want to fly a hateful flag then one does not have to fly it. Most of you think we are a FASCIST country by your comments.
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John Ash McCormick
Glad we aren't fascist in America.
Just for giggles I looked up the definition so we can all feel safer.
"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, ."
I feel so much safer now.
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John Ash McCormick
Not in any way criticizing Doggod's post.
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David Arthur Lewis
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Fire him! Just fire him and let him continue his lawsuit from a position of unemployment.
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Pastor Jim
When I hire on to assist an employer in their endeavors to achieve their goals for a certain number of hours per day, that amount of time becomes their's and not mine. While I empathize with the Christian lifeguard, I side with the employer in this case and if the lifeguard cannot fulfill the employer's policies and methods of operation, he should seek employment elsewhere.
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Ralph Miller
Homosexulity is a life choice, what people do in the Privacy in there own home is nobody's business but their own. Having to participate in pride activities is forcing that lifestyle on others and that is not fair.
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Danny D. Maynard
Did you have to make a choice when you decided on your sexuality? Then neither did we. And if "Homosexulity is a life choice", then I challenge you to live as a Gay person for 6 months and then report back here on how it worked out for you. Oh! BTW, exactly what is that "life choice" we so flippantly make so easily? Please describe that lifestyle you imagine so vividly! I am sure it does not match mine in any way whatsoever. Please, learn about what you do not wish to know, so you will know how to respond to others who will also challenge you! Nothing works like knowledge!
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
First homosexual is not a life choice. You are either born that way or you’re not. Secondly, I do agree with your statement about what happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom. Third no one is forcing a pride activity on anyone. Captain Little asked for an accommodation and received it. That should have ended it. I’ll bet someone got to him to file the lawsuit to stir up trouble. You want to ban any activity? Ok let’s ban flying the Italian flag on Columbus Day. Let’s stop flying the flag of Ireland on St Patrick’s Day. Let’s ban ANY religious symbol or signs, etc. out in public. The list goes on and on. The US is NOT a country just for so called Christians. It as NOT founded as a Christian nation. We have freedom of religion. Learn your history, and not the sanitized versions of today. Dig deeper. You just might surprise yourself.
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Clay Serenbetz
Actually, you are uninformed. Homosexuality is not a choice, but an inherent biological, genetic predisposition. Studies of the X chromosome as well as the entire human genome have linked Xq28 to the heredity of homosexuality in human males. Homosexual behavior has also been documented in many non-human animal species. Of course, you may continue to display your ignorance, if you wish.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
That’s been disproven by so many health and mental health professionals that the comment is ludicrous
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Mark Hannon
I was fired from a job in 1981 when the practicing Catholic branch manager found out I was gay. I had been "employee of the month" only 3 months before. Then it turned out he was cheating on his wife with the office secretary. So his religious ethics were pretty thin.
Does raising a flag really mean anything about the person raising it? Somebody needs to check out the California lifeguard's background.
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Cathy Anderson
I often notice that those who are protesting loudly also have a skeleton or two in their own closet.
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Robert Gagnon
Already had this conversation about flags other than American or state flags on government property. If it's a private beach then fly away with your flags whether that's a pride or a trump flag. Though lifeguard flag poles are normally used for warnings and not social issues. On a public beach, beach goers should not be subjected to any ideological symbols. Not everyone wants to be bothered with what some may find objectionable while taking the family out for some sea and sun and sand. Fly what ever flag you want from your home, at a parade or at events. You don't need to claim every piece of land for your cause no matter what it may be.
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Reverend Andrew
If you are christian and can file a lawsuits for not wanting to see the pride flag can a non christian file lawsuits for having the cross displayed or the jewish star ?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
I'd love to see that. That ......... would get ugly, I think. "If I can't fly my own symbol, then they cannot place theirs. Fair's fair."
Actually, that reminds me when I worked in APAC in LaCrosse, Wi, heh, quite a long time ago now. Long story short, my supervisor pulled me aside and told me to take off my pentacle pendant. It was about the size of a quarter and on a thin silver chain. I told her "Ok, but only if you tell the others in our department who're wearing crosses to take off the crosses." She snapped at me and said "That's different!"
When I pointed out that mine is my religious symbol just as theirs is their religious symbol, she told me to just "get my arse back to the phones."
Two weeks later, she got me fired.
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Daniel Gray
Sure they can, anyone can file a lawsuit but that does not mean they are going to win. In this case though the lifeguard will win as federal law clearly states that no state nor county nor city nor business can make a law or rule that violates your 1st Amendment religious rights. The simple thing is if the business or the city wants this flag raised, then let them find someone willing to do it and have them raise it and then take it down. You seem to forget that there are and have been plenty of cases where businesses thought they could do something like this and found out to their dismay that they couldnt. Take for instance the Michigan city that banned a farmer from their city farmers market all because he refused to allow his land to be used for a same sex marriage. The city recently settled with the farmer for well over 2 million dollars that they had to pay out. Or how about the 7th Day Adventist who refused to work on Saturday overtime but offered to work extra during the rest of the week and even offered to come in and work on Sunday at regular pay and was refused, he sued and not only won a ban on the auto assembly plant there from forcing people to choose between their religion and their job, but won over 350,000 in damages.
I am sorry that you think you can just violate peoples religion to right some imagined wrong or because you think you can. Thats why people that intentionally violate the 1st amendment are being slapped down left and right by the courts because its illegal and unconstitutional!
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Did you miss that the city gave him that exception? The issue is his refusal to allow others to fly it
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Robert Gagnon
A really simple solution. Since it is a part time job for him, he can simply not work that counties beach that month. No harm, no foul.
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Daniel Gray
Did you miss the part where they still tried to place him in an area where he had to care for the flag? or does that not fit your agenda. The 1st Amendment says NO so deal with it
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I think they're just trying to get that lifeguard to come out of the closet. Y'all should see him in his Pink polkadotted shorts in his lifeguard tower, fanning himself with a copy of Out magazine. The story doesn't make any mention of that.And he thinks he's concealing it? Give me a break!
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James Martz
Sometimes it isn't about "winning", but proving a point. Where does it say in the bible that you can't do your job because of your religious beliefs. As a matter of FACT it says in Matthew 6 that you should NOT preach on the street corners like the hypocrites...that they may be heard by men, but go into the innermost room of your home and have a PERSONAL relationship with "god". If you can't do the requirements of the job, he should have been fired on the spot for insubordination instead of bowing to religious beliefs, especially when there is NO EVIDENCE that "Bible god" is even real. A book doesen't make it real or people would worship Harry Potter and Alice in Wonderland. If this Capt is really a true believer like he wants you to believe then isn't his deity, Omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing, all-loving, has his own plan, etc? Doesn't the Bible say, "Judge NOT, lest ye be judged"? Wielding your faith like a shield and using it to make others bend to your will isn't Christlike in the least. If a rainbow flag triggers you then maybe you are in the wrong. If you are a BIGOT, you don't get to hide behind your deity. Also, the 1st Amendment says that the GOVT cannot respect one religion over another, but Pride isn't a religion and his belief doesn't supercede other religious beliefs so this guy should have been fired, PERIOD. Religious bigotry is what led us to the Crusades and witch burnings. So if I have to choose between a flag that represents the love and respect for all people (especially the LGBTQ during pride month) or a religious person who wants to exclude other people, I will take the INCLUSION. This Capt is a hypocrite and should be treated as one and when no other religious people call him out for his bigotry that just makes the whole religion look horrible.
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Daniel Gray
And nice argument but it is nothing but wind. The 1st Amendment says you CANNOT pass a law that would force you to violate your religion. If your religion does not agree with the Pride thing, then you CANNOT be made to do it. I guess you seemingly want to ignore the Little Sisters of the poor where a law was passed trying to make them provide abortions which violated their religion and the state lost. Or how about the Cake Maker or the Flower shop or the ranch out in Montana? You can try and spin it all you want but the 1st means exactly what it says. No matter if you like it or not
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Cheryl Pettijohn
It seems all you want to do is justify his hate, regardless of the fact his exemption was granted. Interesting flex
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Daniel Gray
And just how is it hate when the only people who are guilty of hate are the ones who are trying to force you to abide by their beliefs in direct violation of yours?
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Mountainsage
How about no flags except those that indicate water safety conditions. Lifeguarding is about saving lives.
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Alexander Arends
This sounds like the best solution. The PRIDE movement is not much different than a religious movement and we don't fly religious flags on public beaches, do we?
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John Ash McCormick
Actually there are quite a few beaches where a cross is prominently displayed on a nearby hill.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Those of us (supposedly ministers, all) remember a time, when the primary obligation of a Christian, was to help the poor, and the oppressed; but that was before the GOP decided, that if it were to remain competitive, with the social democracies, of Europe, and provide social security, Medicare, and rent controls, paid for by raising the taxes, on the million, and billionaires- which the USA’s oligarchs and plutocrats didn’t want to support — ergo, the GOP began to convince the USA’s Christians, that their mission wasn’t to help the poor, it to help the poor help themselves; hence the new GOP Christian motto: “The Lord helps those who help themselves,”
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John Ash McCormick
I suspect quite a few of the ministers here wouldn't be happy with being labeled "christian" ministers. Having a considerable knowledge of history I believe quite a few Muslims would see their ancestors experiencing christians as not especially dedicated to helping the poor or oppressed. In fact as soon as the Pilgrims got to this country escaping persecution they began persecuting.
People who think christians have always been loving and kind even just in this country should remember that the only reason christians didn't burn witches in Salem was because they hanged them instead.
We didn't need the new GOP to twist religion.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Hit the nail on the head.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Or the current GOP "christian motto" "I got mine, everyone else can die for all we care"
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John Ash McCormick
Am I just being silly?
Would a rescue depend on what color swimsuit I am wearing?
Or what if I have a particularly offensive bikini? Yes, I am male but you never know, I might even wear my kilt.
What if I am wearing a suit that has two kinds of fiber? I believe Leviticus would mandate stoning. Maybe just getting stoned would be penance enough?
Perhaps I am not being silly enough?
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Gotta laugh! Although you've brought up some valid questions--valid for someone, I suppose. Levity is good.
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John Ash McCormick
There is a famous laughing Buddha.
There are two things i can't find reports of Jesus doing in the New Testament.
- Laughing
- Saying "Hate thy neighbor."
I mention this because so many people seem to have found those passages.
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John Ash McCormick
Levity is good but levitation is demonic?
God must have a sense of humor, there is both a platypus AND Sex.
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James L. Giberson
His rights are being violated by employer. Pride folks rights being violated by the folks running the beach lifeguards. I should break out in song.........."Feelings".
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John Ash McCormick
I question whether the "Life"Guard would refuse to rescue any non Christian? If so, what particular denomination would qualify for help?
Should people use a magic marker for identification?
Or is having segregated beaches enough?
BTW, is LifeGuard a paid position? If so, is it paid by taxpayers?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Lifeguards are normally paid positions. There are private lifeguards paid by privately owned pools or beach resorts, in which then they must do what their bosses tell them to do as per company policy. And then there are lifeguards who work for the city / state they are in for publicly owned pools and beaches, and yes those are paid by the taxpayer.
And if the person actively refuses to rescue someone who is drowning because "They might not be a christian", then that individual is, therefore, responsible for that individual's death and can be charged for it.
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John Ash McCormick
I was sort of exaggerating to make a point Minister Bridget.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
There should be no religious exemptions for anyone of any religion, period. There is nothing “special” about religion, it is used as an excuse to discriminate. If you know you don’t “agree” with the requirements of a job then don’t do that job. This religious exemption BS has gotten out of hand.
Don’t want to do abortions? Work for a place that doesn’t provide them. Don’t want to provide Plan B then work for a pharmacy that doesn’t dispense it. Don’t want to fly a PRIDE flag as required by your job? Work elsewhere.
It’s crazy that ONE PERSON is granted the power over everyone else in a job because that ONE PERSON is unable to carry out the requirements of their job. SMH.
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John Ash McCormick
I've got a suggestion for a slightly improved one. Don't believe in abortions? Don't have one.
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Cathy Anderson
Exactly. While abortion is a terrible option, I don't judge anyone for having one. I have no idea what their story may be.
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John Ash McCormick
I've known (for certain) two women who had abortions.One had no religion and the other was so Catholic that her only sister was a nun.
I strongly suspect a third woman also had an abortion.
(I should probably note that I didn't get any of the three pregnant.)
It didn't seem to do any harm to any of the three but if they had children they would have been terrible parents and not just because they would have been desperately poor single mothers raising children in terrible circumstances. (Out of choice none of the three ever had children although two got married and stayed married.)
I pass no judgement on any woman who has an abortion, it is just a religious question as is so much which is causing massive hatred and political threats around the world.
Although I try hard to conceal it if they seek help, I do pass very critical judgement on any person who opposes a woman's right to control her own body, especially the great many people who can never get pregnant because they lack the equipment to do more than cause pregnancy.
How can they possibly understand and, except for some very old book, what gives them the right to judge? You all know what book I refer to but I have actually read it and that includes all the passages which condone or even encourage murder but what might seem trivial offenses against God, such as mixing fabrics, or mowing the lawn on Sundays, or granting land to one group in preference to another (yet so many seem upset by Pope Alexander IV and all the trouble that he caused.)
Since Spain simply stole all that treasure by force of arms and by religious power, I find it difficult to criticize the British "pirates" who stole it from the thieves.
Beginning with Elizabeth I the "upper" class British lived off the riches of half of the world which the empire simply stole from the peoples who lived there.
They attempted genocide many times and places and chased many of my ancestors out of northern England.
I do not see how they benefited India, a country with religion and culture thousands of years older than the British.
However If I were to write an alternative history book (instead of 23 non-fiction books) I would explore the possibility that South America would be far better off today if the British had taken over. Just comparing the U.S. and Canada with the rotating dictatorships in most of the southern continent, in fact most countries below the Rio Grande, and it is difficult to see how Spain left the peoples better off.
A simple word on abortions - it you REALLY believe it is murder and also REALLY believe God will punish them for eternity, and also REALLY believe God's ways are ineffable, why do you set yourself up to judge when God who knows all will decide on punishment for eternity.
Or, is it just possible that, besides the powerful urge to tell other people how to live, you also fear that God will NOT punish them?
The Bible does say do not kill, It also condones, even encourages both retail and wholesale slaughter even of the innocents in many parts of the Old Testament. I hate to keep bringing up Leviticus but it isn't my Bible and it is difficult to find any other description of many of his prohibitions as anything but murder. He also seems to have been the source of all the ideas that, although God will punish for eternity, man should get a good start on it.
Interestingly virtually every time the Bible encourages murder it is almost never to keep the person or peoples from future killings, just so they don't offend God.
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Daniel Gray
Fine Elizabeth, then there should be no such thing as Pride Month Nor should there be any such thing as flying a Pride flag on Government property. What you do in your own home and on your property is up to you, but dont try and use this fake flag as a reason to force your ideals on someone else especially since the 1st Amendment clearly says you cant.
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Rev. BH
Comment removed by user.
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ServantOfJudgement
False idol.
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Clay Serenbetz
I'm confused. Is the lifeguard objecting to himself personally having to raise the Pride flag or is he objecting to others doing so? The Pride flag represents speech. I could understand his personal objecting, no matter how hateful and bigoted his choice, but he cannot impose his beliefs on others. We do not live in a theocracy yet. I must add that those who are most offended are often closet cases. He should instead spend his money on a therapist.
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Pamela S. Casteel
He has a right to Free Speech just like the folks who are offended by him not wanting to raise their flag. Why does it seem that this organization gets offended when other Americans express their right to Free Speech? My son is in our military to protect this country's right to Free speech.....ALL Legal Americans have the SAME right.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
He has the right of free speech yes. But imposing his beliefs upon others then takes away Their right to free speech. He was given exception not to fly the flag so it wasn’t his freedoms that were at issue. He refused to allow others to fly the flag. In that he was way out of bounds.
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Joanna Ruth Mitchell-Snell
AMEN
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Daniel Gray
And they cannot impose their ideals on him either.
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Jeffery Leaper
I refuse to fly a pride flag inside or outside my home. America is losing all the freedoms that our country was founded on, this is why our ancestors came to America 🇺🇸 and those who are in office and congress are fighting conservatives to destroy everything. 🙄
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Huh??
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Excuse me?? Read history. That’s totally wrong. Yes people fled here to Escape religious persecution. People of all religions. That’s why the separation of church and state is in the constitution and why we are not a country founded upon christianity
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Danny D. Maynard
The number and kinds of flags flown over all the military regiments, religious facilities, and the government facilities is phenomenally large. You should see how many kinds of flags there are. Why pick on only one? Why show your prejudices?
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
You want to translate that so we can understand what you are trying to say.
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Jeffery Leaper
I refuse to put anything pride inside or outside my home. They're targeting freedoms that America 🇺🇸 has been founded on.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
There is no hypothetical they. It’s just people wanting equal rights and protections under law. This is Not a country founded upon Christian faith and rules. We recognize all religions. That being so how are this They targeting you in any way? You might consider some deliberation on what your objection is and if you believe your targeted think about what your fear is.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Who are "They"? Hm? Who are "They" taking "Freedoms" form? And what "Freedoms" are being taken? Because the only "freedoms" I'm seeing Alt-Right Zealots like yourself losing is zero. However, you seem hell-bent for leather on ripping rights and freedoms away from other individuals.
You want to Ban LGBTQI+ Marriages - despite the fact straight people can wed with no problem. You want to put LGBTQI + in prison using "sodomy laws" and religion based "Purity laws", but not put CIS relationship individuals in prison. You want to rip bodily autonomy - an essential fourth amendment right - away from women, but somehow men get to KEEP those rights. You want to rip the right to travel away from women - but MEN keep those rights. You want to BAN the right to read whatever we want due to "Oh it might have something we don't like in it," shattering the 1st amendment, etc.
So yeah, you're not losing ANY "rights or freedoms". But you're sure bent on TAKING them away from everyone else.
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Danny D. Maynard
Remember your comment when you try to force your cross or other religious memorabilia, such as a book (Bible) on us. Don't be a Hypocrite!
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James Riggle-Johnson
It's a big leap from you not putting anything Pride in or outside your home, to “THEY” are taking away your freedoms. Maybe it’s more about you don’t want to see anything that indicates the existence of LGBTQ people. Sorry, but that’s not going to happen. What about their freedom?
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Donald R. Wooster
If your not gay, why would you? I'm not, and I don't give pride month, pride flags or "rainbow" ANYTHING much consideration.
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Michael Sciulli
Us Christian must fallow Ten Commandments and bible from minster mike
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Mike you of course may practice your faith as you see fit. The problem is when you are forcing your belief upon others. That you do not have the right to do. Consider: this Captain was given an exception for his faith. But then he elected to force his beliefs upon others. How does this make him right? What if one of his subordinates doesn’t share his belief. This person really wants to fly this flag and it is not against his beliefs. Does the Captains belief some how become dominate in some way?
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Rev. BH
minster (minister?) mike: Could you delete two of your three identical responses? What commandment or words in your bible prohibits the flying of any kind of flag? And as far as fire Captain Jeffrey Little, if my house was on fire beneath a gay pride flag would he refuse to save me and my family until I took it down? You are little, indeed.
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Stacey Owens
Why are you responding to the Pride flag. If God be for you who or what can be against you? The flag shouldn't effect you.
Christ is suppose to be in you. So why be move. Christ said it is finished, but why do you acted as if greater is He that is in you then He that is in the world.
The pride flag is of the world not of the kingdom of God. You are a citizen of the house hold of faith. Why aren't you walking by faith and not by sight?
We're suppose to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. So why are you citizens of the kingdom move. The 10 commandments are suppose to be fulfilled in you through Jesus Christ. Stop acting like nonbelievers if Christ abides in you.
Your sounding like hypocrites.
Give it to God
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Michael Sciulli
Us Christian must fallow Ten Commandments and bible from minster mike
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Well…. Then love thy neighbor stop belittling him or her. Jesus didn’t help just Jews…. And remember there were no Christian’s then…he healed anyone who believed or asked. What gives you the right to judge others or say that they cannot think how they will?
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Rev. MichaelRS
They can think and behave how they wish. And yeah, I do pray that Jesus heals them.
But let me ask you; What gives them the right to force their value system on me?
This business that Christians are not supposed to judge because of Matthew chapter 7 shows a complete ignorance of Matthew Chapter 7.
The purpose of that was to warn people against judging unfairly or hypocritically and not to pronounce GOD's judgment.
That does not mean that Christians cannot recognize and judge what is sin in themselves AND in others.
Because, if you can't do that, how are you supposed to not engaging it if you can't recognize what it is?
So in the end God will determine what the punishment, if any there is, but in the meantime, provided they're not engaging in whatever practice it is themselves, the faithful can call it out and advocate for not participating in it by themselves or others.
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Michael Sciulli
Us Christian must fallow Ten Commandments and bible from minster mike
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Bah. Yes right up until you force your beliefs upon others. That minister you have no religious or legal right to do
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Rev. MichaelRS
The "compliance is not optional". So what's next? Are they going to force the straight male firefighters to march in a Pride parade wearing nothing more been their helmets and a leather jockstrap?
This type of flag, which apparently changes design on a monthly basis, should not be flown from any public building or facility anymore than the straight flag (yes, there is one) or the Christian flag or the flag of Hamas.
These direct, overt celebration of people's sexual bent and/or proclivities is beyond ridiculous and has been sometime now. It's as if we are living in Pagan Rome or some such.
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James Riggle-Johnson
They gave him a waiver, so he didn’t have to raise the flag himself. They aren’t forcing him to do anything. They said have someone else at your Lifeguard tower raise the flag, but that isn’t good enough. And no, firefighters will not be forced to march in a Pride parade. That’s ridiculous.
The far-right religious sect won’t be happy until all mention of LGBTQ people is gone. They want them back in the closet and that’s just not going to happen. Pride isn’t about sex. It’s about showing people that we are everywhere. We always have been. We always will be. We want to be treated equally. More and more people have become accepting of that and it scares the far-right Christians to death.
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Hit the nail on the head. Thank you
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Rev. MichaelRS
No, you don't want equal treatment. That was the original argument when the whole same-sex marriage as she was going on.
You want SPECIAL treatment. You want your flags flown over the government buildings and other public areas controlled by the government.
And you want parades for yourself. Parades combining several groups that really have nothing to do with each other than some tangential correlation to something to do with sex or sexuality.
And you want a whole month celebrating all of that with businesses the spraying Pride symbols otherwise they're called something-phobic and are to be boycotted.
So you don't want special treatment and just wanted to be treated as equal? 😄
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
There's a difference between flying a flag, and rescuing someone. If a firefighter refused to rescue someone simply because they were flying a rainbow flag, or wearing rainbow clothes, and that person dies, then that firefighter is responsible for that death and must face the consequences for that death.
That's A LOT different than your asinine remark of "forcing someone who does not want to, to march naked in a PRIDE parade."
And if he doesn't want to put up the flag, fine, he can ask someone else to do it. But he can't just throw a fit and stop them ALL from having it just "Because it hurts his feelings"
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Again missed the point. He was granted exception to not have to fly flag. He doesn’t have the right to not allow others to do so
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Rev. MichaelRS
Are you kidding me? He can't throw a fit because his feelings are hurt.
Not that I agree with your characterization there, but what do you think the various rainbow activist groups ALL the time if they don't get their way?
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Danny D. Maynard
Pagan Rome has not stopped. It was really hidden for millennia, but now it is only partially hidden. You have no idea what the heteros are doing behind closed doors. Go in peace! ☮️ Go with peace. ☮️ Be at peace. ☮️
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John Ash McCormick
Didn't Roman Senators wear dresses?
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Russel A. Kester
The Roman Senatorial class wore togas, sometimes very elaborate togas.
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John Ash McCormick
GEE, and all that time I wasted reading every volume of Gibbon. GRIN
Please describe TOGA in a way that doesn't sound exactly like a dress?
In the early years both men and women wore "togas" which Gibbon described as dirty, heavy, hot, uncomfortable, and difficult to wash. Women eventually began wearing the stola and eventually only Senators wore togas, which as any member of Animal House would agree, are mainly loose sheets wrapped around the body. Sounds a lot like a dress to me.
But, of course, although what I wrote was precisely correct, it was just meant to point out that how people dress doesn't determine their sex.
If you look at my last name you might suspect I have a lot of Scottish ancestry.
Although it was forced on my ancestors by the British, I have no problem saying there is really no difference between a dress and a kilt other than who is wearing it.
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Russel A. Kester
LOL. I don't think fashion designers think of their designs as nothing more than sheets draped around a body although togas could be expressed that way without much ado. A senator would have been wearing a tunic under the Togo I'm told. Blouses and dresses are designed for the female body. But men wear shirts and sports jackets traditionally. So, no, the toga is more like a sports jacket or blazer than a dress. Or possibly a chasuble At least that's how I see it.
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Russel A. Kester
This man is in the wrong and he shouldn't have been given the first exemption. Imagine a grocery store manager who believed drinking alcohol to be a sin and demanded that no alcohol could be sold during his shift.
Personally, I despise the new versions of the flag. They're simply ugly and divisive. The pride flag for me will always be the one with the bold colors of the rainbow without pastels or triangles or any other additional colors.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
May I ask, politely so, what's so divisive about the new pride flag? I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind the sentiment.
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Russel A. Kester
The 1979 rainbow Pride flag without the pastel colors was just fine. But people had to come along and say oh no I want a special color to represent me or I want this special triangle that represents something else. Such nonsense. These were people who just wanted to be special and stand out. It was attention-grabbing at its worst.
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James Riggle-Johnson
The Leather flag came out almost immediately after the Pride flag. The Pink Triangle had always been around as a symbol of identifying and shaming homosexuality. It was then reappropriated as a positive symbol of being LGBTQ. Then of course the Bear flag and then all the others, which I have no idea what they all mean. It’s simply people wanting to be represented. Despite all that the Rainbow Flag still represents us all.
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Russel A. Kester
James, I totally understand the significance of the pink triangle and its association with gays in Nazi concentration camps. Using the pink triangle on its own is a powerful symbol but it wasn't part of the 1979 rainbow Pride flag. Your statement that, "It’s simply people wanting to be represented." is the very reason I oppose those changes as it says they think their special. If someone needs special representation go make your own flag and wave it proudly but don't change the existing flag.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Russel, the Rainbow Pride Flag is still around. It’s the same as it’s always been. Other flags have been created that resemble it or incorporate part of it, but do not replace it.
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Russel A. Kester
James, since my eyes see the rainbow flags disappearing from the landscape and these other flag, which are also called pride flags, replacing them, I'm going to believe my lyin' eyes as they say. These newer versions are intended to replace the original 1979 pride flag.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
The particular colors of the Gay Pride flag are also put on a lot of other stuff now, such as caps, t shirts, bracelets, etc.not only to represent Gay Pride, but to identify with others, not only at Pride events throughout the month of June, but other occasions too. I always wear my bracelet when I go to a bar. I think it helps put others at ease, especially when they see my MINISTER cap.
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Russel A. Kester
That a great idea, Carl. Thank you for sharing.
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Daniel Gray
Already been tried Russel, you had a muslum flight attendant who refused to serve alcohol and the SCOTUS sided with her.
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Nicholas J Page
Remove Capt Little from his post he's not fit enough to be doing his job.So what happens to a gay person in difficulty in the sea would he save them like anyone else.This is disrespectful to the LGBTQ COMMUNITY and discrimination and I'm a Hetrosexual male it stinks we are all equal.
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Robert Gagnon
So it's OK for the captain to fly the nazi or Trump flag the other 11 months of the year?
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Asa William Sprague, II
FYI - The captain does not have the authority to choose which flag flies on the lifeguard tower.
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Daniel Gray
Yes he does Asa. Or are you intentionally ignoring (or forgetting because it does not fit your agenda) of how much Starbucks LOST when a worker refused to wear a gay pride pin and they fired her for it? Last time I heard she won upwords of over 400,000. for that little stunt and Starbucks had to hire her back. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/starbucks-barista-says-she-was-fired-refusing-wear-pride-shirt-n1248847 And the decision was made from the complaint she filed with the NLRB which sided with her. SO Asa please know what you are talking about before you start talking as your opinion does not work and its not even legal.
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Asa William Sprague, II
Apples and oranges, Daniel. The worker who sued Starbucks didn't sue them over a flag posted on the company's property. They sued over a pin that was required to be worn on the worker's person.
Maybe laws have changed, but in the old days, it's the owner of a property who gets to decide what flag is flown on their property.
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Daniel Gray
No its fact and fantasy. fact on my side and fantasy on yours
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Rev Deborah Dunkle (Raven Wolf Song)
Had an allowance not been made you would have a point. But it was and you don’t. While he has the right to not fly the flag he Does not in any way have the right to tell others they cannot which is the point of all this. Please re read the article. His rights were respected then he decided to stomp on others rights
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Daniel Gray
And they have no right to demand that he do it or be stationed at a place that flies it either/
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Daniel Gray
Ok and who said anything about this Robert? Seems YOU were the only one. And again what he does at his own home is HIS business. and thats ONLY if he does what you are trying to suggest with no proof.
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Daniel Gray
Lets see them try and do that Page as then he can file a federal felony class action lawsuit against the idiots who do it. Unjustified dismissal/violation of his civil rights/violation of his 1st Amendment rights....Lets see, that should amount to a cool two to three hundred million that the city that tries this will be required to pay out. And I bet you the tax payers who may have to try and foot that bill because of ignorance of the law will be VERY happy to explain how wrong they were at the next election.
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Asa William Sprague, II
I suspect we are rapidly heading towards the point where countless lawsuits will be filed by Christians in an effort to prevent ANYONE from flying a Pride Flag because just the sight of it offends their personal religious beliefs. SMH
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Rev. MichaelRS
You realize that is what is happening now regarding the American flag, right?
It's been removed from some classrooms because it makes the illegal alien children or others from a foreign country feel uncomfortable.
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Pink Clover
That's not why some teachers removed the flag (do your research) and the teachers that did that were wrong and were punished.
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Rev. MichaelRS
You realize that is what is happening now and has been for some time, the American flag, right?
It's been removed from a number of classrooms because it makes illegal alien children or children from other countries feel cuncomfortable" and not included.
And burning and/or stopping on an American flag is just free speech covered under the 1st Amendment...but you do it to a pride flag, or put skid marks on a pride flag painted on the street, and it's a hate crime for what you can be charged they felony.
So pardon me if I don't cry a river over somebody's attitude toward pride flags.
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Is there any place you can get pride flags for free?