Christian Group Fighting to Close Kentucky's Last Abortion Clinic

John Owens

No. The two viewpoints cannot be reconciled. Ever. One group thinks innocent human life is sacred and has value, and another does not. There is no reconciliation for that, until one group has disappeared from the planet.

It's funny the people trying to save infants' lives are being called Taliban. That is stereo-typical name-calling from the left. Anything extreme they can think of, and the more opposite it is from reality, the better. Just like Troll, Fascist, Nazi, Hitler, etc. That's great. American Taliban. That really took a lot of imagination for a Dalek to think up. Artificial intelligence is progressing, or the programming has improved.

Messenger of the way

To add to the problems of the world is against scripture, man will do what man does. We the are called can do very little to ix. We must pray, have faith, reach out to them near us. Others will work on issue's near them! Love heals all problems. Love will be that fix it ticket. Love is what we are told to do. Our Heavenly Father is pure.
LOVE!

Tom

What ever happened to the idea that if you do not approve of abortion, you should not get one? Can we stop telling others what our God says they should do? Is that not a bit presumptuous? Especially presumptuous if the person you are preaching to does not share your belief. Ist Cor 5:11-12 says, "Who am I to judge? Do we not judge those who are within our church? God will judge those who are without our church. In the meantime, get rid of the evil doers among you." That would include the vainglorious and judgemental. I believe Paul was saying, "Mind your own business, Church." I have been going to church since I was a child over 70 years ago and have never heard a sermon preached on this verse. I asked why that was one time and was told that preachers consider this a UPS...an Unpopular Pulpit Subject along with others on divorce and adultery. A preacher once said, "I don't mind preaching to the congregation, but I am not going to get away with preaching about them and there are a lot of them about whom I could preach. My job is to keep the collection plates full, a roof on the building, the lights on and the doors open. I'll lose parishioners if I start preaching too much truth to power." I suppose that is called pastoral impotency. Shame on Kentucky, they have not read the whole book.

Martha Knight

It is naive to predict that there will not be abortions in the state if the last place providing them is closed. There will be many abortions, but many will be unsafe, unsanitary, dangerous, carried out on kitchen tables or in back rooms.

JoEtta Yeary Macera

I believe that abortion is a choice and since it is governing my body and law states this is a legal choice then the governor or any official should allow me that choice.

James

As long as my tag dollars don't pay for it, and the father has equal say in the death of their child. Sure, any female can kill off the product of her sexual exploit. Because she is the one killing not the father. However, a few issues could be excepted. Rape proven by law, incest, etc. But to saling parts, ripping living babies out of the vagina until only their had is left inside, and then cut their spinal cord, or stab their brain. Yeah, that's murder. Just my opinion.

Beth K

+John Owens: The notion that a conceived blastocyst or zygote, or even a foetus in the first or early-second trimester pregnancy is a human life with all of the value of human life is neither supported by Christian scripture nor by medical science.

Medical science tells us that the peripheral nervous system - which allows the brain to feel pain does not develop until 19 weeks of pregnancy. The nerves that connect the brain to the peripheral nervous system do not develop until 23-24 weeks. The infant's brain on EEG monitors start showing that the infant is awake and conscious at 30 weeks - which is into the third trimester of pregnancy.

In scripture, there is the notion of "quickening" of a foetus. That is when it claimed the soul entered the body. This is felt by the mother, and currently that is believed to be when she first feels the foetus move or "kick", which is also late second semester pregnancy in most cases.

In Numbers where they count people for the census, infants under 1 month old were not counted, and were not officially "people" until 1 month after they were born.

None of this supports any notion that life begins at conception.

Nearly all abortions occur during the fist trimester of pregnancy, during which time there is no brain, no nervous system, no mechanism for the foetus to feel pain, contain a soul, be conscious, or anything else. Few abortions occur in the second trimester, and most of those are early in the second trimester, before there can be any consciousness, pain, or "quickening". In the very rare cases where a third-trimester abortion is performed, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the foetus where it will not survive birth or in some cases is already dead. Do you know what we call removal of a third-trimester foetus who can survive outside the womb (with or without modern medical care)? BIRTH. Induced labor. C-section. The goal is to have a live mother and baby. In cases where the mother does not want the baby, he/she is put up for adoption.

So, as there is no scientific nor scriptural basis for calling an early-stage foetus an "innocent human life", what then is the goal of the anti-abortion activists? Moreover, since these same people are often anti-birth control and anti-sex education - BOTH of which are proven methods to reduce abortion/demand for abortion, they are, indeed, very similar to the Taliban. Both groups seek to have all rights taken from women. Both groups lack scriptural support for their positions. Both groups have a goal of enacting a theocracy governed by their own positions - lacking any support in the religion they claim to follow. The whole thing is belied over there even being a debate over whether there are exceptions for pregnancies caused by rape or incest. It's the same for the foetus, who most certainly is not at fault for the circumstances of conception. It is a matter of punishing the woman. They used to stone adultresses and brides found not to be virgins. What did Jesus say about stoning the adultress? Now, the Taliban and the anti-abortion Christians don't stone anyone, but force her to give birth to an unwanted child. Some of them die every day because no one cares. Where are the people who value human life? We certainly have enough unwanted/uncared for BORN children that we don't have to create more!

Truly though, a foetus has its own DNA which is different than the mother's at the moment of conception. In cellular biology terms, that would be considered life. Of course it is "innocent" - at that point, the cell has no ability for agency. Cancer also has its own DNA which is different than the cancer patient's, but is unmistakably human. Cancer also is incapable of deliberate action, thus it is also "innocent". So, removing a cancerous tumor is also "destroying innocent human life".

John Owens

First, I see a contradiction right here, Beth:

"The infant’s brain on EEG monitors start showing that the infant is awake and conscious at 30 weeks – which is into the third trimester of pregnancy.

In scripture, there is the notion of “quickening” of a foetus. That is when it claimed the soul entered the body. This is felt by the mother, and currently that is believed to be when she first feels the foetus move or “kick”, which is also late second semester pregnancy in most cases."

Basically you are saying the child is squirming before it is conscious. If it is squirming, it is alive.

Second: "In Numbers where they count people for the census, infants under 1 month old were not counted, and were not officially “people” until 1 month after they were born" They were not counted as dead, either, or ok to kill. Census notwithstanding, at one time, Jesus was less than one month old, as were we all. He was still the prophesied Savior, as John was the prophesied forerunner. Each prophesied person was counted before they were conceived, as was Moses, as was Jacob, as was Jeremiah, as was Samuel, Samson, et al. All of these people had a destiny before they were born. When Mary and Elizabeth were both pregnant and saw one another, the babies leapt in their wombs. To come to the interpretation you have reached according to scripture, someone was trying awfully hard to ignore certain passages and to LEAD you to that interpretation, which I see as completely lop-sided, so this matter-of-fact statement you made- ""None of this supports any notion that life begins at conception," is, in fact, NOT FACTUAL. It requires very poor observation and/or reading skills and a lack of critical analysis to come to that conclusion.

Now, I think you comparing a tumor to a baby tells a lot more about your thought processes than it ever can mine. You also mention the rape/incest .001% reason for abortion. If you really believe it is a good thing, people should leave that one out TOTALLY because it is such a non-issue. We KNOW babies are aborted AFTER they have developed brains and eyes and limbs and can feel pain, and we KNOW that it is NOT painless or merciful.

If an ovum could be successfully aborted within a week or two after conception, that MIGHT be humane, but with modern birth control, it would be so much easier just to NOT IMPREGNATE an ovum.

Your comparison of Christians and Taliban leaves out something really huge. I call your attention to this statement of yours:

"Now, the Taliban and the anti-abortion Christians don’t stone anyone, but force her to give birth to an unwanted child. Some of them die every day because no one cares. Where are the people who value human life? We certainly have enough unwanted/uncared for BORN children that we don’t have to create more! "

I understand that people who have NO MORAL COMPASS except public opinion think it is impossible and unrealistic to try to keep girls from allowing boys to dump their sperm into them, or to teach boys that they should not do that outside of marriage. Still, I think even the morally ambivalent and confused should be able to learn and teach how to avoid pregnancy and disease. That doesn't take too much discipline. You talk about caring about human life? About people dying every day? Hardly anyone in THIS country is forced to get pregnant in the first place. If you CARED about these women, you should consider teaching them to place a high value on their body and reproductive system and the fabled "reproductive rights." Young men should be taught also. People need discipline if they are to have a decent life. Teach something besides "religion is evil". Teach something GOOD that is good FOR them.

I have to go now, and will not be back before Monday.

Tom

So far, most of the comments, except one, are from men. Do you think this is a problem? I do!

Sarah Hamilton

Of course there are ways to bridge this gap. It cannot be done on a group level though. Each person who believes in the lie of women wanting to murder children needs to be engaged one on one by well informed and patient staff members of the clinic. The violence, the hate, all of this stems from misconceptions about science and women's rights to privacy. At the end of the day, personally reminding someone that it is not right for another person to be allowed to make medical decisions for them is the tantamount argument. You want me coming in to your surgery and claiming you don't deserve it? Suddenly they see themselves in these women, they see the same God that lives in them also lives in these women, and they care for them at last. In summary: If you are against abortion, then you should not get an abortion. Other than that, it will never be your business and you flout the will of God when you judge his children before their time.

Kristy

Unfortunately, this is not about egotistical thoughts and opinions which should be kept to self and pondered on as such. This is about a woman's right to choose, just as any other human being faced with a life altering (albeit the way it's perceived by that individual) decision which is solely up to them to choose, alone-without anger, protests, ignorance or personal opinion. Think of how it would be if you were diagnosed with a terrible illness in which the only choice for health was unknown or 50/50... Now imagine you're being publicly forced to make a decision (to either have treatment or not) no matter how you think or feel. A different situation yet essentially the same principle Each one of us has a right (God given if you will) to make our own choices in life without being ostracized for it. And for Petes sake folks-PLEASE stop setting such a bad example of patience and understanding! Doesn't our world have enough of this??? ✌????

Preacher Jim

Would you not all agree that it doesn't matter what time during the pregnancy you terminate it you stop a life. I personally think that using abortion for birth control is totally out of bounds. Perhaps birth control should be considered the night before.

John Owens

Your last statement applies to those who practice abortion, as well as those who oppose it. "With whatsoever measure ye mete, it shall be meted again to you." Is it not JUDGING an unborn's life worthless to take it? If there is a resurrection, will the aborted be resurrected to ask their mothers and fathers why their life was judged not worth living?

You are somewhat correct. I will not answer for any abortions in the Judgment, but those who judge the innocent and take their lives shall.

Also, if it is not my business, then not one cent of my tax money should be spent on it, and if the abortion is not my business, then also the children of other people are not my business, and not on cent of my tax money should be spent on them, either. Again, you cannot rationally have it both ways. Either it IS my business, or it ISN'T. If it IS, then I have a say. If it ISN'T, then I shouldn't have to provide any funding or support.

It will ALWAYS be my right to say that I feel that something is wrong, at least as equally and loudly as you say it is NOT. I do not hate you, or anyone specifically, but there are abhorrent practices which I do hate, and opinions I think are totally wrong.

You say if I am against abortion, I shouldn't get one. I say, if you are not in Kentucky, you have no say-so in this, and neither do I. Still, if you want to express your opinion, you can read mine. We all might learn a little bit.

john shephard

Yes, there is a way to have the two groups come together as one, and that is Adoption. Both sides need to work together to facilitate and support the expectant mother's psychological and physical well-being through the pregnancy and then during and after the adoption process. They come together as one group on the realization, the principle, that all life is sacred and a creation of God and if it is not appropriate for someone to raise a child they need to be lovingly helped to endure the pregnancy, deliver the baby, and permit it to be placed in an appropriate environment. If all this is done lovingly, the parent or parents the child is given to will be the one intended by God for them to be with at that time. There is no need for fear, guilt, shame or anger on the part of any party. Just kindness.

Lark Phillips

If we are going to follow religious beliefs in regard to abortion, which religion should that be? In Judaism the fetus is not considered a person until it has breathed air. It is for this reason that Jews do not hold baby showers, nor do they usually announce a name before the baby is born. It is also why rabbis are virtually all in favor of a woman's right to choose. Isn't Christianity based on Judaism? Where did Christians get this idea that abortion is murder? Certainly not from the Bible – the original five books, nor the Talmud. It is high time that they to work to better inform themselves. http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-fetus-in-jewish-law/

John

I like what Joseph wrote. It bears repeating. "As Christians we do not have to like abortion. But we also do not like liars, cheaters, thieves. But GOD tell you to love them in spite of their failings. As Christians we do not have the right to tell anyone else what path GOD puts them on. You do not agree with abortion then do not get one. Its that simple. But when Christians choose to interfere with others beliefs and actions that go against theirs it wrong. Mind you own business, dislike what they may do, and do as GOD demands love the person anyways. When Christians choose to act against a person they are not acting GODLY nor Christian."

Sue

I have always enjoyed the articles and perspective on the ULC page. However, I am saddened to see the vile hate being spilled out into some of these comments. No need to reply or make hateful comments about my post. I will not be returning to the ULC page. I'm sure I can find another church to keep up on my learning and growing to try and please the Lord with my actions and words. Blessings to you all.

M.E.Holt C.N.

This is 'ALL' a waste of time by men with a grudge or ignorant of the problems women have when for some reason they need help. Most women will seek help from a doctor, look at the long term emotional issues generally with a pastor,good friend, or parent and make a decision that is NOBODY"S business. The entire issue is between the female, her doctor, and her relationship with GOD not yours. With that being said all these radical men making a show , fools of themselves for a minute in the lime light need to but out.

Personally I do want a doctor who can help her rather then a bottle of pills or a neighbor with a knitting needle. I'm hoping we've moved past cave man days.

Wil

If the woman is Hell bent on killing their own baby they should be sterilized so they can never again take the life of an innocent creation of our almighty God. My personal opinion is if you insist on ending that purely innocent baby they should terminate themselves. Either way if they go through with it, it's a one way ticket to spending eternity in Hell. There is very, very few reasons an abortion should ever be allowed and a means of birth control is never one. There are so many women and couples that can not have children and would love to adopt the baby. If you have ever observed the procedure as i did on video( for OB rotation)you may understand my opinion. I am in the medical field and I have refused to participate in the procedure every time! Wether it costs me my job or loss of license I'm okay with that.

Janice A Ellery

There is no easy stance on this issue. On one hand I believe life begins at conception. However. forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want would be like making someone donate bone marrow or blood against their will.As some have also correctly noted, eliminating legal abortion increases illegal "street" abortions. Many women get an abortion because they feel like they have no choice.Christian groups need to do more to help these women find housing or medical services they need and many will see there is an alternative to abortion. More people are going to have to be willing to adopt the children out unwanted pregnancy. I have seen couples spend fifty thousand dollars to try and have a biological child when there are hundreds of children in foster care needing a home.Many people who are against abortion are also against women having access ti birth control that would prevent pregnancy in the first place. Abstinence is a admirable goal but not realistic for most young people today. The priority has to be preventing pregnancy in the first place. The sin of killing an innocent unborn child is much greater than young people having premarital sex. If we want to reduce abortion we need to step up and be part of the solution. Screaming at women or women or calling them murderers will not accomplish anything.

Gary Wells

http://americanrtl.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion .You have to read it all. .You have to read your Bible. .You will have to answer to almighty God for your actions, inactions and 'interpretations'. .There is simply too much Biblical evidence and emphasis on the sanctity of a child's life } even in the womb {. .To argue in favor of abortion of the unborn is not Biblical, hence the backing up into the realm of "well, science says" or even dragging further downward into the darkness of name-calling and politicizing for advantage.

Deborah Alexander-Gioello

I did not come to this forum to see name-calling nor hate speech. As spiritual people, we should be showing love and kindness to all. God tells us in The Holy Bible that we are not to judge others; "Judge not, that ye be no judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:1-3 ,

That being said, please understand that only a very minute percentage of women view abortion as a method of birth control. Also, no method of birth control is 100% effective. Studies indicate that at least 50% of pregnancies are not planned (that includes married/committed couples). Most women who seek abortions are in committed/married relationships, and are not young girls, nor promiscuous. Circumstances in a woman's life may make having a child lead to hazards and hardships for her family, not just herself. It's a heart-wrenching decision for a woman to make, regardless of whether she decides to abort, or continue, a pregnancy. If you have never been pregnant, or given birth, you have no credibility in this argument,

Most pregnancies and births turn out OK, but pregnancy and birth are hard on even a healthy woman. Every organ and system in her body has to go into overdrive to grow not only the child, but a new organ, a placenta complete with umbilical cord, Her body also has to produce new cells to increase the size of her uterus so that it won't rupture; new skin cells to accommodate the growing uterus. Her breasts increase in size and prepare to produce milk, Her ligaments loosen, so that her hip joints can widen her stance for balance and make room for the birth. Her blood volume increases so that there will be enough to provide oxygen and nutrients to her and the child, and carry away waste products for both of them. This increases the workload on the heart, lungs, kidneys, and liver- just to mention a few systems. As the child grows, the intestines, bladder, stomach, and lungs get compressed, putting even more load on them. It takes more iron to carry enough oxygen, blood pressure can increase to levels dangerous to both, resulting in cardiac and kidney dysfunction or failure. It takes a minimum 25-pound weight gain to produce a healthy, full-term baby, due to the increased cellular growth needed.to sustain the mother's body systems and provide for the child.

And we haven't even gotten to the birth, yet. Gentlemen, have you ever passed a kidney stone? Birthing is far more demanding, potentially life-threatening, and painful. The average labor lasts 12-16 hours. I assume that you gentlemen have seen a vagina, I assume you may seen a newborn baby; a healthy, full-term newborn should be around 19-20 inches long, weigh at least 7 or more pounds, with a head circumference of about 12-13 inches. Yet most women, even in difficult circumstances choose to have their child. And where is the father? I hope at her side, loving and caring. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. If you don't want your partner to get pregnant, do your duty to help prevent it. If you want every woman to carry her children to term, do your part to assist those who need medical care, food, shelter, clothing, and other necessities. Be willing to help families bring up their children to be healthy in body and mind, loved, cared for, educated, and given opportunities to fulfill their potential. Without reservation, and no begrudging. Be the loving example of a Christ-led fellow human, with mercy for all. Wouldn't we want the Lord to be merciful with us?

"And when you stand praying, if you have a grievance against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in Heaven may forgive you the wrongs you have done" -Mark 11:25

"Love your neighbor as yourself" - Mark 12:31

DJ

God gave every human being DOMINION. First and foremost over one's own body. No one has the right to take that away or try to impose their beliefs on another. Every woman has the God given right to make that decision. It doesn't matter if one agrees with it or not. I personally choose life, but respect God's law of dominion for everyone. All life returns to the CREATOR. Judgement is for God alone.

Jaded Mage

wow, nice seeing how kind, compassionate and empathic people there are here.
Can't wait to hear the horror stories come out of Kentucky when women and girls get impregnated and are forced to carry when they really want no part of it.

All of the those that say they are pro life, will it make you happy seeing children being dumped, beaten and neglected and murdered after they take breath? I hope not, but tell me what will you do when this comes to fruition? Because human nature is predictable and you know as well as I do, where there is a will, there is a way, you take away the clinics they will still abort or abuse...

John Maher

KENTACKY should lose its STATEHOOD for BEING as TACKY as the NAZI tRUMP LEADER of the VILLAGE IDIOTS, OH' WAIT SUPREME EXALTED WHITE LEADER of the VILLAGE IDIOTS..........................................

Jaded Mage

Actually Kentucky is a beautiful state, as all states in this nation have some defining attribute. As much as your comment made me laugh, saying things like that will never change a person's mind in any direction. I just really wish that ProLifers would THINK about the other side and care a little more about the situations some children are born into. Beaten, starved, raped, abused, If it were a choice I was making for myself, I would rather be aborted than live a loveless lonely life.