In the latest blow to the LGBTQ+ movement on Christian campuses, a prominent evangelical college is barring its staff from declaring their personal pronouns while at school.
Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, recently updated its policy handbook to severely limit school staff’s ability to state their preferred pronouns.
The college explains that stating pronouns violates school policy, and that anything beyond saying "he/him" and "she/her" is outside a “created reality of a biological binary.”
He Said/She Said
Wheaton's new handbook draws a hard line, seemingly prohibiting staff from ever stating their pronouns in any school-related context.
“The College does not permit the statement of preferred personal pronouns by employees when conducting College business, when on a platform where they are publicly identified as College employees, and/or when using the College brand in print or digital media, except when employees are required to submit such pronouns when registering for a conference or for membership in a professional organization,” reads the updated student handbook.
That means any context where pronoun declaration is common – meetings, email signatures, even writing them on name tags at events – is now banned.
The school seemingly has not banned preferred pronoun usage for students yet, although the updated student handbook stated they may refuse to admit potential transgender students, because medically transitioning violates the school’s Statement of Faith.
Such actions "violate the biblical and theological commitments" students are expected to uphold, according to Wheaton.
Some students and alumni aren’t happy about the changes – and they're speaking out about a policy update they view as unnecessary, bigoted, and transphobic.
Students Rebel
Wheaton College is a private evangelical university in Wheaton, Illinois. Founded by abolitionists in 1860, it quickly became a stop on the Underground Railroad, and it is the school’s abolitionist roots that attract some students to campus even today.
But for some current students and alumni, the policy changes are a step away from the school’s progressive start. The Instagram account "Wheaton Watchdog," which says it exists to “[expose] the harmful and hateful rhetoric from Wheaton College,“ shared the updated handbook language on social media.
“This is disgusting. Another outright violation of human rights,” wrote one outraged commenter.
It’s not only bigoted, it’s also STUPID. Can’t believe I went to this college for transphobic clowns,” stated one alumnus.
“Hate in the name of Jesus,” added another.
A War on Pronouns Rages
Christian universities have slowly but surely been restricting staff use of pronouns in recent years, arguing that the gender binary is clear and created by God. Thus, they argue, stating pronouns is unbiblical.
Houghton University, another evangelical school, recently fired two resident hall directors for putting pronouns in their email signatures.
What do you make of this trend, and of Wheaton's new staff policy? Private schools have the legal authority to enforce strict pronoun polices, but do the spirit of such policies align with religious teachings?
210 comments
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Christopher Terrance Jones
Jesus once said, he came to affirm God love and rule of law not too rare it down. After all it is a Christian school or maybe you just Christian on TV and your taxes speaking to the trans your nuts I dint hate the bank robber breaking the law doesn't mean I'm going to join him just a thought good for the scool stand your ground
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sorry. Since I can't run my hand down your pants to find out if you're a he or a she (without getting arrested), then if you look like a he, I'm calling you a he. if you look like a her, I'm calling you a her. Sorry Too bad, too sad. If you confuse the situation with your silly lipstick and wig and out-of-gender clothes, then that's just too bad for you.
Your rights don't extend past your mental illness to force me to defy logic and participate in your mental illness fantasy. Simple science says if you have a pecker, you're a he. If you have a vagina, you're a she. I'm not getting into the genetics debate or the "female trapped in a male body" debate. That's the way it's done, always has been done up until we got "woke" and "PC", and that's the way I'll continue to do it until I die, if it's OK with y'all.
And even if it isn't OK with y'all.
Sincerely, "XY" Genetic Human who knows the sane difference.
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John Alex Paxson
Humanity= He,She,or It ... simple enough for a simpleton species!!
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
He, she, or They / Them. Simple enough indeed.
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Todd Leslie Miller
What about the Church of Scientology where all Sea Org members are addressed as ‘sir’ and ‘mister’ even if they are biologically female?
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Lady Mutt Cat
I changed my primary care provider when I had to fill in new forms online after not seeing a physician for a couple of years. The form required me to list pronouns, and I refused to do so. I have no problem with people who choose to provide this information, but there was no way on earth I was going to knuckle under to the PC police and play along.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Yeah the V.A. just started that crap every time when the nurse checks you in and takes your vitals before you have to sit in the little room for 30 minutes starring at the wall waiting on the Dr to come in. The XY doctor smiled when my reply was, "You've seen me nekid before, Doc. So the question begs, Did you actually go to medical school?"
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Johnny Rivas
It’s an mental illness and I pray for them
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Being LGBTQ+, esp. Trans, is NOT a mental illness. You are either born that way, or you are not. There is no "cure" for it. There is no "treatment" for it. People are simply the way they are.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Long comment section. Was asking my 28 y.o. daughter, that works in a high profile tech company if how often she’s encountered trans people here in Japan. Nope. In Thailand but not Japan.
Maybe many of you are aware that there has been for quite some time a trend in the younger generations of Korea, and two large extent Japan for the males to groom, dress and carry themselves rather androgynous manner, which, of course means appearing more effeminate. But never heard of the pronoun thing here.
I remember, perhaps 20 years ago, walking into a public bathroom and seeing long, straight haired person, putting on make up at the mirror. My reaction? I thought I was in the wrong toilet and backed out until I saw that it was the men’s. Did I freak? Not at all just walked on and use the toilet.
I think too big of a deal has been made of this. Call people what they wanna be called. I think the only issue that I come down on the same side as the open“ unnatural against God“ group is that I don’t think that males should be on female sports teams unless they have fully and completely transition, including having visited ‘Dr. Dyker, reformed sniper, he’ll whip off your windshield wiper.’
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
THANK YOU, COLLEGE.
And for you mental cases who claim Christianity but don't know if you have an XX or an XY chromosome, there are two ways to find out:
The cheap way: Unbutton your pants and stick your hand there there. If you can wrap your hand around whats down there, you're a boy. If you can stick your finger into whats down there, you're a girl.
The expensive way: Send your DNA off to any accredited lab in the world and they can tell you within a few hours if you are a boy or girl.
No, God doesn't change to conform to your desires. YOU conform to his.
This concludes today's brief Leviticus 18:22 sermon.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sorry, but "God" has nothing to do with it. And a person's outward appearance doesn't always show what they ACTUALLY are. A person can be born outwardly appearing to be male, but actually be "hardwired" genetically, to be female, and a person can be born outwardly appearing to be female, but may be "hardwired", genetically, to be male.
It's just a person's DNA.
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Cyril R. VanKeirsbelk
Feel free to tell me what pronouns you would like me to use. I am under no obligation to use them, but I probably will if I remember (if you were a jerk about it, count on me getting them wrong).
When you declare something to be the truth despite facts to the contrary it doesn't make it true, it just makes you a liar. God, in his (or her if you prefer, I am going with the traditional) infinite wisdom, creates males, females and hermaphrodites. Clearly not a binary.
There are XY males, YY males, XX males (1 in 20,000 males is XX, they are sterile), and even XYY males . All four types are born males. There are XX and XY females both are born female. Hermaphrodites are XX.
So by birth genitalia and chromosomes we have 7 genders. Just by chromosomes there are 4 genders. By birth genitalia there are at least 3 genders. This doesn't count orientation (which is NOT a choice) at all. By any metric Gender is NOT binary. God made it that way. If you have a problem with how God does things, keep it to yourself.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Your god does not speak for my god. Or for me.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
God has nothing to do with it. It's your DNA.
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Amy Varela
And I am still waiting for ANYONE to provide GOOD evidence for the existence of ANY god. Why should anyone care about the rantings of a made up deity or his immoral acts such as drowning everyone and slaughtering babies? The fact that people use the rantings of that immoral deity to denigrate, demean and torture others is beyond reprehensible.
Sadly, very few christians are very Christ-like.
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John M. Endress
Here we can share how we feel and how the topics of our time affect us. Please continue to express your heartfelt feelings. Practice the difficult conversations so that when it comes time to do so in person, we can be better prepared.
Since each person will be at a different point on their journey, it is imperative to tease out the other person’s feelings before expressing our own. If your feelings are different, I urge care and kindness while expressing your own. Life is short and we need every friend we have along the way.
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Rev Ned
Since I became a Master Gardener, I prefer the pronoun “Master”.
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Vincent Paul Therrien
The theology that asserts God made only male and female is silly. God made day and night. Does this mean that God didn't make dawn and dusk? God made land and water. Does that mean God didn't make the marsh? If not, who did? Some estimates are that 1.7% of human population is intersex - literally not make, not female, but both. If God didn't create these people, who did? Sometimes us Christians like to put God in a box. We define what God is, what God isn't, what God created, what God didn't create. Silly us!
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JaZe
Isnt it all so tiresome. Guess he/she will have to be replaced with the name of the individual.
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Karen Ruth Greb
Don't these individuals have anything better to do. If you are truly Christian, treat others with the same respect that you are worthy of. The Bible was written by men who interjected whatever pronoun that that individual used at that time. If you ask me, not that you are, this school is declaring itself to be a very non Christian organization.
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Victor Allen Hawthorne
I have read many comments about the use or nonuse of personal pronouns. What I find amusing that personal pronouns were used to make his/her point, regarding us so called, " Christian Bigots." I am used to the use of personal pronouns and am not about to soon change because in writing they help reduce redundancy. We have become a World of satisfying and appeasing the status quo, when we should be clear in our intent in processing our view.
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Robert J Rook
Surely it is simply based on XX or XY chromosomes - Not political just scientific and practical?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those saying harshly that "They" is plural, period, and claim it's a perversion of the english language to claim otherwise, or that people don't know proper english to say otherwise, I do have news for you.
THEY is not only a plural word, but also singular, even in the Oxford and other dictionaries.
I'm a nice person. I'm going to show you some proof that THEY is both plural and a singular word, depending on the context used. It's been that way for over 200 years. It's only those individuals who have developed an intense hatred for anyone who are LGBTQ+ who have begun throwing temper tantrums over proper english use of a word.
Oxford Dictionary - They as a singular and as a plural depending on context of use.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
Miriam - Webster dictionary - They used as a singular and plural depending on the context of use.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they
History of the word "They" - Santa Clara University.
https://www.scu.edu/media/offices/provost/writing-center/resources/Tips-Singular-Pronoun-They.pdf
They / Them depending on usage - Perdue University.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
I'll leave it at these for now. I'm aware of proper English and how the Grammar of this nation works. So before anyone goes "You don't know the english language!" Please see above posting with dictionary information.
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Donald Anthony Tierney
4: “Make definite assertions and avoid noncommittal language.”
Strunk & White "The Elements of Style"
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Tabitha
Jeebus says: hate your neighbors, as you hate yourselves. Spread your bigotry and lack of humanity to all nations
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Richard Faust
40 $ and we are all ministers wopeeee
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William I. Hegeman
Interesting reading how all these binary opinions justifying conservative viewpoints.
Ask a good Rabbi how many genders are in the Bible, it is more than two.Did Jesus hang out with the Pharisees, the conservatives of the time?
No, Jesus spent time with the publicans and sinners. Where did these people come from to assemble in more urban conclaves. The very people that escape rural and suburban conservative families and views. These conclaves today of publicans and sinners are where our urban LGBTQIA and more migrate to. Treated as an underclass useful to work, but not in a place where outright stoning can take place. Living in rural or suburban world where the churches treat them as outcasts are physically and psychologically abused or murdered.
Jesus with the woman at the Well. "How are your husbands?". She replies, "I have no husband". What did Jesus respond to, not the polyandry. It was the lie that He rebuked. We have to live, respect and accept our truths as well as others, as Jesus did.
I am surprised this didn't get redacted from the bible like the extended story of Jesus and Lazarus.
AS a member of Universal Life Church, clergy, It takes me a Pagan, to point this out.
What Wheaton does and our reaction to it speaks much to how this body is made up.
IT is what we do, how we minister to others, that should be judged. The embroiled semantics where "they" is perfectly acceptable, has been in the English language for 100's of years.
New pronouns, the airplane, which one 747, 737, aerobus. The plain " the" and an object, gives you no clue that it is a biplane. Do you care?
When you are so mistreated by a normal pronoun, demanding a distinction to see as a litmus test whether or not you will respect their differences and not abuse them. Is it so unreasonable? Is it difficult for me to get it correct at times? Yes. Do I correct myself? Yes. Is that so hard? Not for me.
I live, have friends and acquaintances that are of every disenfranchised section of humanity. It is one reason why "pagan" tends to be a friendlier community. It too has these divisive binary concerns in different groups. People leave those groups just as fast.
Who cares what Wheaton does? Should it not be a clarion call, for all of us to do better, and be more accepting. What can we do to accept individuals and minister to each of their needs, as opposed to how we can stuff them in convenient impersonal boxes. How do you build community or congregations when you do that?
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Rolando Couce
Great that someone is standing against these perverted people
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Leonard Norwitz
One's personal pronouns are "I" or "We." That's it. Nothing else. "Preferred pronouns" are the pronouns some people would prefer others use when speaking "of" them, not "to" them. In speaking to another person, there is only one pronoun: "you." Otherwise, we use their name -- which is how I suggest we resolve the question when referring to another: If you don't know someone's "preferred pronoun" or don't care to use it, just use their name.
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John A Carreiro
Hi All, The bottom line here is what your particular church's bible states. As in this case if Wheaton's, an evangelical college, bible states thus about this matter in a God dircted way then those who are of this church faith must follow their bible's instructions to the letter. If any student currently there disagrees with this they need to leave the college and go elsewhere. If any potential student disagrees with Wheaton College's policy then simply do not apply to become a sturdent. The point all these anti policy folks seem to ignore is that they do run the college and they do not get the right to change the adminstration's right to set policy they believe in according to the college,s religious beliefs. So it is really not about iscrimination but about power. The customer, the students and some folks that work their, what to run the college their way and then heck with the administration's right to run the college as they see if. The inmates want to run the asylum. Does not work that way. In Gamaliel’s conclusion is that a messianic movement which is from human origin is doomed to fail; but if it is of divine origin it is destined to succeed. It would be better to let the disciples of Jesus do as they please rather than to “fight against God.” So take it from there all you complainers. If this is a bad policy then Wheaton College will evetually close it doors if there are wrong but if not then they will succeed and your complaint's will be of no consequence. Rev J
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Richard Faust
The reality is that there are 3 basic groups that self proclaimed Christians fall under. Their faith is either based on 1) their personal definition 2) The worlds definition or 3) The Bibles definition. Only one of those gets you to heaven.
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Richard Faust
It seems the students are in the wrong Vocation. There are many Religious schools to attend not all fit the student. It is the students responsibility to find one that fits their agenda, not the schools responsibility to change their belief system.
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Michael Dwayne Cooper
The freedom to do what you want doesn't mean you should force everyone else to do it too. There are biologically only two genders. If you like someone of the same gender you are homosexual. I've read over this so-called list of fifty something genders and it's ridiculous that someone would claim the right to be offended over someone not knowing to call someone by some special pronoun. When someone doesn't have an argument to stand on, they make stuff up. Jesus has perfect love for everyone. With as much love as I can muster, I encourage everyone to give themselves without shame to Jesus and always deal sincerely with him in truth. There is no greater friend and ultimately, he is the creator, let him create you to perform that which he called you to do.
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Steven Ferrell
Good for the University. There are only two sexes, male and female and you are born one or the other. To say a male can be a female and a female can be a male is equal to saying God made a mistake on that person. God does not make mistakes.
For those who will disagree with me, that is your respective right to your opinion. I have my right to my opinion.
Have a great day everyone.
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James L. Giberson
I fully support Wheatons Policy. More people, and organizations need to start making the difficult right decisions over the easy wrong ones. Thank you.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
While I sympathize with the students who believed that they were attending a Christian college and are understandably disappointed to find out otherwise, I am sure that they will find a way to deal with it. Students have always been innovative in demonstrating the folly of bad policies to their schools.
For instance, consistent misgendering of administration could be an interesting exercise, with said administration by their own laws forbidden to correct that it is forbidden for them to express a preferred pronoun. Just as an example of one of many things that could be done to address the situation.
On the serious side, though, it is disturbing that the school's byline mentions its mission involving making "an impact for Christ". I cannot imagine that draconian rules casting compassion away into the trash would make a very positive impact for Christ.
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Lady Mutt Cat
I want to know why it is fine to have a penis and think you're a woman when it's not okay for Rachel Dolezal to have white skin and think she's black. I'm sick to death of the whole woke nonsense and the idiots who decide what's okay to be PC about and what's not.
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Nigel Andrew Gunn
What you all disregard is that over time, the language has significantly changed and evolved and will continue to do so. Language is fluid and what is seen as gramatically correct now, probably wasn't the norm a couple of hundred years ago and might not be into the future. Your *****ing about nothing is not going to significantly change the future of language development.
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Patti Anne Lisenbee
considering "God" performed the first transexual surgery, why are they being such ***es? "God" took a MALE rib and turned it into a FEMALE person. If that's not gender reasignment surgery, I don't know what is.
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Rev_Shaun
Perhaps someone can show me the passage in the Bible that states 'Thou Shall Not Use Pronouns'.
But to be honest this whole pronoun thing is a bit of a nonsense, just like all this fashionable 'non-binary' nonsense. You are what's between your legs, that is all.
The day a pronoun will help me to comfort a crying student, then I will use them. In the meantime, you can shove 'em where the sun don't shine.
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Rev Mark D
Are you kiddies don't forget to have your parents pay your tuition bill on time, even if they have to go without toilet paper. Because you're worth it.
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Rev Mark D
How many people have died from fentanyl overdose, been raped or trafficked, been shot, been killed, animals abused, women been brutalized for not wearing a hijab, girls been relegated to no education past the age of six, then been sold into marriage, suffered an honor killing, while you emotional for four year olds have been working yourselves up in this expending all your energy dancing on the head of a pin? Don't want to be judged, and put your idiotic energy into something written above.
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David George Promis
The point is that one has the right to prefer any pronouns he/she wants to be called, but to attempt to force this recognition onto others is conceited and not a top priority when there are GREATER needs in our World then behaving like the World should do as you tell it, or you will stomp your feet and holler “Triggered”.
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Darrell White
In a rare case , science and religion do agree that there are only two genders. It’s very sad that when this fact is stated this is branded as “hating “in the name of Jesus. Somewhere along the way , we ,as a society have lost our way and refuse to stand for the truth. So now we have an institution that stands up and refuses to play the pronoun game and affirms what science and the Bible declares, that there are male and female only , that they are being hateful. Declaring the truth is not hate. Proclaiming the truth is what the church must do. Be ye not conformed by the world is what the word tells us, the church must stand as a beacon of light .
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James Riggle-Johnson
Who cares what a person puts in their signature line of a letter or email? I don’t care about what a person wants to call themselves. It’s extra work for them. I’m too lazy to go the extra step to say I’m a he/him. It doesn't mean you have to address them that way.
When you walk up to someone and say hello to Mr. Smith or Ms. Smith. How could you possibly know they want to be greeted as They Smith? And if they correct you what is wrong with saying, I might have a problem remembering that? How about I call you Eric or Erica?
I can’t understand why it’s a burden to let someone put in their signature line He/Him or anything else. That doesn’t force you to address them that way. We are making a big deal over nothing. When I sign a letter or email, I don’t use a pronoun. That doesn’t mean I have to be offended if you put one in your signature line. Again, why do we have to be threatened by someone else doing it?
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Just a little respect for others, is that to hard for a Christian to do?
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Rev Mark D
Seems twice as hard for an arrogant adolescent (whatever "their" chronological age) to do.
But in the spirit of universal good faith problem solving: Who should go first?
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Paul
There have always been male, female and intersex people. The ancient Greeks acknowledged hermaphroditism. He / She / It. The difference now is that non-binary people, and we've all met such people, are choosing to identify as such. Why should anyone care. What difference does it make to you if you acknowledge someone's preference. Will you suddenly turn into a tolerant and compassionate human? Are you worried about that?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Except for when talking to a stranger, who I address as sir or mam respectively (in accordance with which he, she, or it resembles) I always address people by their names, except for also when I'm calling someone a name, sarcastically, when I think that person deserves it. And at such times I don't care if he, she, or it likes it or not.
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Stacey Owens
We're not titles to be identified. We are people. Human beings. We have to get away from what race we are and the identity we classify as a being. We're people God formed. Yet in spirit He created. We God calls you He's your spirit to respond, the life in you to evoke His character in you. Will black, white, non-binary, gay, Chinese, or German respond? No, the spirit does, it the life in you. This is the part of Him that acknowledges Him. The world created race just as you acknowledge non-binary and believe they have the right to be what they claim they be.
God is the only one compassionate. The problem is in the people of this world who are confused about how people are classified. Fear is controlling this world, not understand. Just like your response, you didn't understand my point. We have to stop putting badges of identity on our selves and be one with our creator in the spirit not in the flesh. Then we can live freely. In spirit and in truth.
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Stacey Owens
Why don't just say, your a your a can of soup or maybe a bandaid. See where that gets you.
The thing is the world won't be able to handle it. There will be controversy. The world can't handle what it doesn't understand. It only knows hate. It will cause you to explain yourself and if you don't understand yourself you will revert to anger, violence and hate just to prove who you are and what you are. It's in human character, Human destroy things on every level.
Case in point, look at history.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, your love and compassion are laudable. I've done more reading since all of these trans issues in society have arisen. What I have come to appreciate this far, very succinctly, is that biologically in mammals there are two sexes - males and female (planets, fishes, and other critters are a different story). Gender wasn't thought to be different from sex until about the 1950s in the U.S. While I have no desire to inflict unnecessary pain in those who suffer from genuine gender dysphoria, I also want to guard against those who would either use this issue to incorrectly designate a gay man or lesbian as trans simply because they are more feminine or masculine than the norm for their sex as well as protecting society (really woman and children) from unscrupulous persons who wouldn't abuse the current practice of allowing self-identification for predatory purposes. The current woke approach is far too permissive in these areas. Feminine boys are not trans. They're probably queens in the making. Leave children be and let them decide what is best for them when they are adults. I suspect that the current resistance now being experienced is to protect children and cultural norms. Since the vast majority of people (which included children) will be male or female there is no reasonable cause to upend society for any dysphoria felt be far less than 1% of society. Being gay or lesbian is about sexuality not gender dysphoria so they are not harmed by using the pronouns proper to their sex and gender and neither are heterosexuals. Growing up has enough challenges without the complications of alternate pronouns and activist generated gender identity confusion.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Why in the hell does it matter if someone who's he wants to be called she or vice / versa? Why the hell does it matter if someone wants to be called they / them? This is absolutely ridiculous.
The HATE has gotten so bad that people's JOBS are being threatened if they show even the slightest compassion? That's just brutal. I thought the USA was better than this.
This has got nothing to do with religious views at this point. This is about all-out HATE. If anyone reads, or has read, the New Testament, this kind of cruelty toward others is one thing that Jesus, if you believe in one such being, specifically WARNS everyone against.
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Stacey Owens
If you know it or not, humanity is creating it own distraction by eliminating it own existence to becoming a What? Now. If your a what then you become a title as a thing and a thing can it's anything. And if your anything your nothing. So you don't exist and God didn't create man or woman and Christ's death was in vain and he didn't exist.
What's funny, why would humanity create a law to eliminate exactly it's existence as a man or woman? We're not you, hey, it, what, or them. We're mankind, created in the image and likeness of God. (LIFE in CHRIST JESUS)!
If anything were CHRIST'S and Christ is the image of God, THE LIFE.
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Brien
You can call yourself anything you like. You wish to identify as a truck? Then call yourself a truck. Please do not ask me to participate in your nonsense. If you find "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" offensive, then feel free not to speak with me. The lesson here is simple. You can believe whatever you wish, but you may not indoctrinate me into it. I am constantly hammering on organized religions about indoctrinating and this is NO DIFFERENT. Peace✌
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Rev. Rory
If a Christian school wants to make this their policy, people with preferred pronouns most likely will not wish to work there or attend the school. It's living in a bubble, but future employees and students will know that it is a bubble of their choosing.
Where I have a problem with this is when a PUBLIC school is required to follow these laws/rules.
"(in Florida)The state law, which took effect in July (2023), says school employees cannot tell students to call the employees by their preferred titles or pronouns, if the preference does not correspond to the sex assigned at birth."
I consider that to be a particular religion restriction on public schools. Should public schools dictate head coverings, dietary restrictions, required prayer gatherings, posting of the 10 Commandments, etc.?
I remember when parents and students would choose to attend a public school, a private school or religious school based on their own belief system and financial means. The public schools were a combination of students of different faiths and belief systems. Mom's for Liberty is now opening charter schools across the country with a curriculum written by an Evangelical Christian college and paid for in full by the taxpayers - with a percentage of money flowing back to the religious organization. In addition, there is no school board or state oversight. I see this as dangerous and unamerican. As a taxpayer, I don't care to fund this type of "public" education, nor do I wish taxpayer money to fund a particular church or any church.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
If a school wants to enforce religious ideals, they should not be permitted to have government money of any kind. No student aid. No snowplows. No fire department. No police. They can use private funds instead.
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Rolando Couce
we must stop this cancer from growing.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You might try chemotherapy, and a whole lot of prayers.
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Merlin
New “club” rules? Did Jesus give the thief on the cross the “ rules” of being a “Christian” before the told him “I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise”? No. Man created separation.
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Russel A. Kester
Merlin, the idea that a man condemned to death on a cross as a thief was promised by Jesus that he would be with him in paradise based solely on his recognition of his sin (and apparent contrition) never came across so clearly to me as just now in your post. Thank you.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Merlin, if someone named Jesus told me that I'd tell him to go fly a kite!
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John Alex Paxson
You are either male or female ... or it??
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
What about Stephen King's It? I would strongly suggest you address It however It wants you to.
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Rev Mark D
How about "Bozo?" As in "I think we're all bozos on this bus."
That's some deep philosophy if you think about it... But then, I guess that's not what college is for anymore.
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Catherine
@John Alex Paxson
Not exactly. Does nature make mistakes? I think not. Hermaphrodites and asexual critters occur in nature.
Every life form that does not evolve and adapt, becomes extinct. There are betweens. Gray areas. Lines blur. Whether we like it or not. Whether that complicates life for us, or not.
Even not on earth. Enforcing fixed lines or boundaries between constellations, for example, is definitionally impossible. The ayanamsa - where a constellation begins - differs due to various calculations concerning gaps between constellations..
Everything around us is ever changing. I think what inteferes with recognizing that is humans are on Earth while it revolves so we don't see and feel it moving and changing.
The point is, fixating on what is not in our control is an exercise in futility and frustration. Why go there? Don't we each have more important things to focus on?
Life is constantly reminding we don't like anyone interfering with our lives. Why do we concern ourselves with how anyone else lives?
Why do we insist on limiting ourselves or other people, as if there aren't enough necessary challenges?
Why not move forward? Give more attention to what we have control over and can change for the better?
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Rev Mark D
You just gave me an idea for the name of my next grandchild: "Hermaphroditie."
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Rev Ned
Since I became a Master Gardener in Illinois 5 years ago, I like the pronoun “Master”.
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Lionheart
Thank you, Master Ned. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
If someone were your apprentice in your field, then I'm assuming that is what they would call you. Just like in the SCA - society for creative anachronism - I was apprenticed under a Master Vintner - a person who makes wines. I called her Master Alice - or Mistress Alice. It was not derogatory in any way. I was her apprentice and she was teaching me vinting. No, I don't drink, I'm allergic to alcohol.
But I learned a lot from her about fermentation and proper wine making techniques.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I started liking the word master when I reached puberty , at eleven years old.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Christian College? Any place (business, organization, establishment, etc) that calls itself a college, must be open to all points of view, debate all relevant issues, have a cultural and religiously diverse faculty, and open to change, as science and technology change. This Christian business, is a business, whose primary purpose, is to indoctrinate— not to educate.
Organizations such as this, should be sued for false advertising, for calling itself a school.
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ServantOfJudgement
Most law schools started as Christian universities. Shall Harvard file a lawsuit against itself?
Are you familiar with the concept of stacking tolerances? If we trace all universities to the beginning, the first degree issued was issued by one who had no degree. All higher education certifications originated from the 'uneducated'.
I propose all who've received a degree be sued for false advertisement for they ultimately know nothing more than Bubba Joe and Bobby Rick. Basically the higher the education the closer they are to a Tump voter.
It's fun to think that way.
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Russel A. Kester
William, surely you're criticizing Harvard and the other ivy school colleges which are the most intolerant, allow points of view and debates only if they agree with it's woke ideologies with no diversity of facility as 98% are woke progressives as revealed in many surveys by their own student papers and not a Christian college which exists to promote a evangelical, Christian perspective. The colleges and universities other than those like Wheaton are guilty of indoctrinating. To wit, three university presidents wouldn't condemn antisemitism. And the vast majority of college professors cannot define what is a woman. I'm sure Wheaton facility and students can do both.
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Lionheart
My pronoun is Sir, but I’m happy to accept whatever you’d like to use. Lord, would also be okay. 🤭
Some like to use Rev, Dr. Mr. or Mrs. It’s only a pronoun. 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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Russel A. Kester
Lionheart, Sir. while I your wisdom in all things ULC, I believe the examples you sites above are honorifics. Personal pronouns in the English language are he, she, it, they, etc.
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Lionheart
Yes, I know, thank you Sir. It’s my weak attempt at thumbing my nose at the silliness of the personal pronouns of, it, they, them, etc,.
🦁❤️
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
I keep it simple: Me, Myself and I.
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ServantOfJudgement
We have the right to speak which automatically implies the right to not speak. We can't be forced to say something. I can't be forced to call a singular person they or them. Nope.
The school is on par with pure logic and reason.
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Danny D. Maynard
You do not get to define the words in the dictionary!
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
They just did.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Somehow, over time, words and definitions keep changing. Doth thou agree?
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Funny how the evolutionary advantage of discrimination, (what is safe, what is not, what to eat, what not to eat, and which one is the one with the pheromones that smell like "good breeding" ) has become so highly developed in people alongside our other "highly developed" traits that it has become a disadvantage? Rebtk
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Robert Gagnon
Their school, their rules. I'm sure furies aren't can't be addressed as Puss Puss or Bowsy Wowsy. I agree with Teresa When unsure just use it. Perfectly describes an object of unknown description. This childish game of pretending to be an avatar created for identification is a personal whim, and not real. It's ok in the social media to pretend, but in the real world most people prefer not to be bothered with another verbal obstacle to deal with.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Robert, this ULC ministers blog is not the real world, but a far cry from it.
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David George Promis
Call yourself whatever you want, but don’t demand others to conform to your self imposed nomenclature. We as a society tend to sling ourselves into the far left or far right every few years, and now we are slung far left where people are demanding that we adhere to what “triggers” them…really? I can’t justify this child like behavior, especially when there are so many more problems that need to be addressed. I’ll start using preferred pronouns when: wars are averted, homelessness is non existent, people stop 🛑 killing each other everyday over petty actions/thoughts, cancer is oblivion, etc. what a trivial spoiled society we have become 😔
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
So in other words, you're making it clear your HATE is so heavy, that anyone who calls themselves by their ACTUAL gender, rather than what they may outwardly appear to be, would Trigger you and get you to correct them and refuse to call them by their true gender.
You would deliberately insult them, to their faces, just to "prove your point". This isn't about being "spoiled" this is about being honorable and respectful toward each other. You DO know what that is, right? Being respectful to another individual?
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
LOL! We shouldn't have to re program a LIFETIME of vocabulary just to cater to someone who doesn't agree with their gender because of how they '' feel''. expecting everyone to kiss your ace because of your own opinion is sheer narcissism.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
We don't have to. It's not opinion or narcissism.
THEY are not only plural but also singular, even in the Oxford and other dictionaries.
I'm a nice person. I'm going to show you some proof that THEY is both plural and a singular word, depending on the context used. It's been that way for over 200 years. It's only those individuals who have developed an intense hatred for anyone who are LGBTQ+ who have begun throwing temper tantrums over proper english use of a word.
Oxford Dictionary - They as a singular and as a plural depending on context of use.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
Miriam - Webster dictionary - They used as a singular and plural depending on the context of use.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they
History of the word "They" - Santa Clara University.
https://www.scu.edu/media/offices/provost/writing-center/resources/Tips-Singular-Pronoun-They.pdf
They / Them depending on usage - Perdue University.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
I'll leave it at these for now. I'm aware of proper English and how the Grammar of this nation works. So before anyone goes "You don't know the english language!" Please see above posting with dictionary information.
And if people wish to be called by their preferred gender, there is no harm. It is not changing the English language in any way. In fact, it's been a very common thing for many centuries.
Though screaming narcissism and being triggered by the use of proper english is a way to show hatred toward an individual, or group of individuals simply because you dislike their personal lifestyle choices. This is obvious.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Call me whatever you want. Just don't call me late for dinner!
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Revd. Dr. R. Vincent BEM, LDPS
I quite agree.
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Melinda Fulk
I have been trying to use "they" far more often and will continue to do so. It is always correct, singular or plural. I do not, however, view "it" as a valid pronoun, even for animals.
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Russel A. Kester
Melinda, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the word 'they' can be used in the singular. 'They' is a third person personal plural pronoun. At least in the English language. In German the word 'Sie' is formal and can refer to either one or more person's and the word 'sie' can refer to either a single female or two or more person's of either or both sexes. Languages have developed rules for use so that the meaning of a statement is as clear as possible. In German the verb form changes so that one knows which case, number, and tense is intended to match the personal pronoun used. In English we do it a little differently, but I've never read a proper grammar book that said 'they' should be used as a third person pronoun for a single person. There might be some publications now trying to push this usage of they on our children in school, but this should be confronted and stopped.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
THEY are not only plural but also singular, even in the Oxford and other dictionaries.
I'm a nice person. I'm going to show you some proof that THEY is both plural and a singular word, depending on the context used. It's been that way for over 200 years. It's only those individuals who have developed an intense hatred for anyone who are LGBTQ+ who have begun throwing temper tantrums over proper english use of a word.
Oxford Dictionary - They as a singular and as a plural depending on context of use.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
Miriam - Webster dictionary - They used as a singular and plural depending on the context of use.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they
History of the word "They" - Santa Clara University.
https://www.scu.edu/media/offices/provost/writing-center/resources/Tips-Singular-Pronoun-They.pdf
They / Them depending on usage - Perdue University.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
I'll leave it at these for now. I'm aware of proper English and how the Grammar of this nation works. So before anyone goes "You don't know the english language!" Please see above posting with dictionary information.
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Danny D. Maynard
"It" works for tables, chairs, inanimate objects and religious icons!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Melinda, thankyou they!
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Lady Mutt Cat
You are most certainly correct about animals. "It" is for inanimate objects.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I agree, and "they" is becoming much more accepted as a singular pronoun. For a while when the singular could be either, the he/she or she/he was accepted but became offensive (with good reason). Now the APA 7 standard accepts "they/them" as a singular unknown or either gender and rejects the "slash" pronouns and "it" as offensive. The "slash" pronouns tend to "out" someone as gender fluid or transgender (sometimes erroneously, especially someone with a unisex name).
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Russel A. Kester
I agree with the college's decision. And agree it should apply to students as well. The college has based it's decision on legitimate reasoning from its holy scriptures. Civilization since the dawn of time has acknowledged two genders which corresponded to the two sexes and language evolved to reflect that basic fact as acknowledged by those societies. It is only since our society got so mired in Social Justice scholarship and the quest to tear down everything in the past as bad and change the meaning or words and ideas to fit the new postmodern based ideologies of the various critical theories and studies in order to blur categorical boundaries and rebuild society according to social justice values that this has all become problematic. But problematizing language in order to erase previous categories used by language is exactly what these so called scholars wish to do and thereby confusing everyone and forcing them to use the words demanded by their Social Justice warriors. Anyone who doesn't use them is then branded with a negative label and shamed. They use terms like racist, supremacist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic, and on and on. Never should these persons be allowed to tell me or anyone else that we're wrong for using personal pronouns as they've been used for thousands and maybe tens of thousands of years. The insanity must stop, and I applaud the school for taking a stand.
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Revd. Dr. R. Vincent BEM, LDPS
I agree. This whole pronoun thing has become a quagmire. If someone chooses to self identify then good for them, I don't have to play make believe along with them. This is the whole crux of the matter. Basically, one relatively tiny group of people want to pretend that they are something else and the realists are expected to play along. Why should we? It's not our fantasy. In hundreds of years time should one of these self-identifiers be dug up by an archaeologist they will be identified as he or she according to their bone structure. Well, unless they are going to be buried with a carved stone that states: I identified as.... If they have the right to self identify I have the right to choose not to play. I choose to believe in biology, as is my right. I believe in God but I don't expect everyone else to.
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Nicholas J Page
This is all very silly and somebody needs to wake up from hibernation and smell the coffee.Its madness He/She/It has been around since the year dot Im 65 and i have never heard such nonsense in all my life.Excuse me from using this but its boring crap.Theres more to life then all these pronouns is anybody that actually cares that we maybe heading for WW3 With all the wars going on in the world someone needs to get a grip and concentrate on the state of the earth im deadly serious Cut all this now and concentrate on issues that matter
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Danny D. Maynard
Obviously the pronoun issues do matter a great deal. It is too bad your life of 65 years has been so protected, with you living in a glass bubble of American Christian mythological concepts.
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John Alex Paxson
I agree 100%
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Nicholas, we aren't here to talk about things that matter to you, but only what they want us to talk about. The world governments don't care what ULC ministers think about it anyway. Have you spoken with your psychiatrist lately. You might be in need of a medication change. Just keep in mind that nothing lasts forever. They can only kill us one time. And when you see the light immediately go through it, without thinking about anything else, unless you want to stay here and be a 👻 ghost.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Nicholas, I thought y'all only drank tea, at tea time (with crumpets) in England. Coffee is a major improvement. If you want to get even better try dunking donuts in your coffee, like us Americans do.
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Theresa C. Marquess
It is all so ridiculous. We have three pronouns that have been acceptable for a very long time, he, she, or it. They are grammatically correct. Why do we need to clutter the English language with a host of others that don't make much sense? I have to agree with the college. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with me, this is the way I roll...
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
How disgusting that you belittle an entire community of humans by reducing them to your idea of the tiny set of your three preferred pronouns. Sad how terribly insecure and uneducated you are.
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Robert Gagnon
An entire community that acts like a cult. Their way or they complain until the world changes to how they want to see it. What an uneducated and insecure accusation. Plainly civilization has done just fine with the three pronouns up until now. If not for technology opening this cesspool of identity conflict we would not be discussing this.
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Danny D. Maynard
Your overt prejudice is not based in/on/through technology!
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Catherine
@Robert Gagnon
Didn't nature beget what you call a cesspool of identity? Though I don't think a globally connected world is likely to incorporate a dozen-ish new pronouns into their languages, why not let those concerned with what is important to them explore possibilities?
I think part of this personal pronoun discussion is based on too many humans being discomfited by differences. And a not-much-mentioned-here important purpose of these discussion is how laws and benefits regarding unions and individuals discriminate one way or another. If not for that discrimination, which of those dozen or so personal pronouns would be necessary?
Sometimes we have to let go of one thing to get another.
The Batchelor Tax law still discriminates against unmarried males and those laws were made by... males. You'd think men would look after each other better, but no. Marry, make babies, and damn the consequences? Point being personal pronouns are not doing you any harm and not likely to all be incorporated anyway. Why not stand for what can tangibly, directly benefit you?
Also, calling the LGBTQ+ movement a cult should come with evidence. That comment is off the charts bizarre.
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Russel A. Kester
Catherine, I don't think Robert was referring to the LGBTQ community. I think he was referring to the small community of activists who are pushing this pronoun nonsense so hard. And I will welcome the day people stop saying LGBTQ and just refer to gays and lesbians or trans or queer persons. They are all different groups with entirely different concerns.
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Catherine
@Russel A. Kester
I think Robert Gagnon said what he meant. His words, "An entire community that acts like a cult." are quite clear.
My point is, we all draw lines. Speaking ill of someone for doing what we all do is pointless. In this case, Robert Gagnon's comment is mean spirited.
Something to ponder, is how we align ourselves is a reflection on our thinking and tendencey to align with others rather than think for ourselves. Such mirrors can show 'what is' more clearly, or our mind can help us see what we want to see.
I prefer keeping things simple and think nature draws reasonable distinctions we could all live with if we chose. What complicates matters is the fact humans consider their physical parts, while nature does not. Why not uncreate unneccesary grief where possible? (Apologies, @James Mounts for using "un" words twice and consecutively. Unsurprisingly, I feel no shame.)
Nature 'just is', even in non-human social hierarchies. Humans are far more complex and demanding of humans and all else really, while we could benefit more from paying closer attention to our individual actions and behaviours. Humans are far more petty. And probably most of us prefer distractions over self-examination.
As for variations within LGBTQ+ and related pronouns, again I think this controversy is wasted time. Why not focus on something more likely to occur?
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Robert Gagnon
The radical faction that demands everyone acknowledge and revere these pronouns designed to label people as if they are an avatar in a video game. That is the cult I am referring to. The trans division of the LGB that so brutally attacks those who de-transition, ostracize, and even threaten anyone that does not take the hard line with them. That's the cult. I fully support the LGB, not the crazies that read the worst into every constructive criticism.
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Robert Gagnon
Cesspool of identity is an expression of it's usefulness. How weak in character do you have to be to require a badge/title to make you special. I don't require Mr. before my name. Like that admiral Lavine all dressed up with little medals, even a captains hat. But never been on a boat. Earn respect and notoriety by great deeds, not self implied importance.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
That's right, Robert. Always blame it on somebody else.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Elizabeth, I am neither uneducated nor am I insecure...and I resent your implications. I don't care a hoot what you think, I am not belittling a community of human beings, nor am I reducing them to what is grammatically correct, I am just stating facts. I was raised with certain values and will not have you or anyone else 'belittle' my values so that you can bring forth your 'woke' trash! Let's get real, girl; eventually the 'woke culture' will pass. I will still have my values and still be as accepting of others, regardless of their persuasion. You see, child, I accept everyone as they are and in that acceptance, I believe in Christ's teaching of loving one another as he has loved us. You don't have to agree with me, but I do hope that you will open your mind to the will and opinion of others.
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Catherine
@Theresa C. Marquess
First, your words are contradicting. You expect others to be "open to the will and opinion of others" while you claim to be, yet use words that show different. Also, being open to the 'will' of others is less than healthy, I think. Perhaps you meant a different word?
Second, all any single person can do is control individual actions and words. However, if you want to portray King Cnut, have at it. May be that's where you are in your journey and who am I to interfere? I'm only speaking up because I think people want to be heard and discussion involves response.
Third, stated eleswhere like a broken record, this world is changing. Those who don't move forward by adapting and evolving into better representations of themselves, will be left behind if not plowed through.
'Woke' is not trendy. It's part of an evolutionary process. A runaway train with a specific name and purpose that won't be stopped. Being woke will gain momentum because drastic changes are needed. The world's peoples called 'woke' to manifest. The U.S. is not a bubble we live in, however much some of us think so.
That said, I'm not sure creating multiple pronouns to add to an already convoluated language is high on the list of needed change. I'd rather see all humans as equals and let that be the end of this particular discussion. Life is happening and we're missing some of it to discuss unlikelihoods.
Even so, the Jesus I learned about embraced all peoples - and change - with an open heart full of love and compassion. Your words sound so angry, so I wonder if you really feel Jesus' love.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Catherine, Take a Grammar course and you will find out just how many pronouns there are in the English language! People who have, also know that there are people of many persuasions, who still use the pronouns he, she, or it. I am fine with that and I have said my piece. I'll pray for you...
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Theresa, the kind of peace you referred to should be spelled peace.
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Catherine
@Theresa C. Marquess
Across the board, is what's fine with me, fine with you? Doubtful. Now turn that around.
If you were serious about praying for me, I cannot think of anything a bigot would pray for, that I want to be associated with. Jesus probably would not either.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Tsk, tsk, Catherine. Why must you resort to name-calling? In my 80+ years, I have never, ever been referred to as a bigot. Maybe you need to do some soul-searching before you make comments like the one above. Put it to rest, Catherine, it's a no-win battle. Now that I know you better I will end my discussion with you and I will sincerely pray for you.
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Alexandria Marie Tipsword
“You see, child, I accept everyone as they are”
“I was raised with certain values and will not have you or anyone else 'belittle' my values so that you can bring forth your 'woke' trash!“
“I believe in Christ's teaching of loving one another as he has loved us.“
You don't have to agree with me, but I do hope that you will open your mind to the will and opinion of others.😊
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Daniel Hatch
When I was a child attending the public schools from kindergarten to 12th grade, I only remember being called, "Hey, you!"
I lived.
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Rev. Rory
Or "Hey, you guys" for everybody. LOL.
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Rev Mark D
Rory, haven't you been listening, you can't say "guys." But maybe you can say "entities."
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Danny D. Maynard
"You" the Singular or "You All" the Plural?
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Rev Mark D
So in third person it would be "Them all"? Or "they all"?
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Omope Carter Daboiku
Yes...All of them went to the movies. OR They all went to the movies.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It sure has been a very long time since anyone called me "Hey, kid"! I didn't care for it back then when they would call me that, but now that I'll be 61 next month, I wouldn't mind hearing it again. And that reminds me that it's time to apply another Freeman cucumber and aloe gel peel off face mask, followed by some elastin firming cream. Cheers !
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Colleen McAllister
I will be so happy when everyone is allowed to be who they are with no judgement. Even if this college has the right, I do not believe that they should stop people from using whatever pronouns they choose.
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James Mounts
"everyone" is singular. "They" is plural. The purpose of language is to clearly communicate. Ambiguity brings confusion,
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
They is also singular. They can be used in the context of a single individual when gender is unknown, I.e. "This belongs to them, not to me." Meaning an individual whose gender is not known, since some names can be gender neutral.
They can also be plural. "They are one group, and we are another group".
In this, with American grammar, the words they and them have both a singular, and a plural meaning depending on the context by which these words are utilized. It's basic American English 101. You DID pass your english tests in school, and the grammar tests as well?
And before you ask, yes, I did pass in school and with high scores. Though I did struggle with mathematics, I worked hard to keep those grades high as well.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Domo arigato, Mr. Robot. Domo, Domo.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
James, don't forget the song that goes "School's out for summer! School's out forever"! And in the real world we just sometimes like to ad lib. Now try reciting "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain", with perfect diction. You'll know you did a good job by the number of votes you get. Otherwise, you might come to realize that you're beginning to sound like a broken record.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Colleen, I like that song too: In The Year 2525, and you may get to experience it then, in a future incarnation, but the only place I've heard of where it's going on now is called the Summer land.
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Rev Mark D
Don't you just love it when you enroll in a college, not to learn, but to instruct?
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Donald R. Wooster
I always thought you went to college for an education. Seems that now, it's just a training school for irritating nitwit's. Have fun finding an employer that will put up with this crap.
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Father Frederick
Since people demand that I use pronouns in their presence, perhaps I need to "demand" that I be referred to as "your majesty", else they are guilty of hate speech and I can sue them. Yes, not the Godly thing to do, but when faced with absurdity one must be more absurd than the offender.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
How, exactly, does my transgender daughter’s use of “she” offend you?
Sounds as if you’re just a tiny fragile snowflake. It would be hilarious for you to attempt to sue anyone due to your pettiness. I hope you have a jury trial and I can serve as a juror.
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Father Frederick
With all due respect, Elizabeth, I'm simply making the point. Shall we untangle the hypocrisy?
You stated you would serve on a jury ready to convict based on your "beliefs", versus common law. I don't know too many lawyers or judges who would be please with a juror who comes to court with an agenda. That's not how courts work. I would pray that you are never a defendant who has a juror so angry that they would toss evidence and vote to convict based on feelings with no legal context.
You try to make the case that "she" offended me. As far as I know, I've never known or spoken to your daughter. And unless you are reading posts to her, along with commentary, I doubt she knows me or anyone else in this forum Personally, I would never bring up my children, or use them as ammunition in an argument.
You also demand that I call her, (whom I've never met or known), a pronoun, yet you failed to address me by "Your Majesty". How can you justify admonishing me for not using the correct pronoun, when you failed to act on my request? Is this not hypocrisy? Of course it is.
This is why the subject is so absurd. This pronoun nonsense is purely about power and to force your will over others. I'm sorry that we can not agree.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Dude, you just completely didn't get it and your hate is showing heavily.
I will break it down into SIMPLE terms so that you understand, because apparently you need a VERY narrow path with hand-holding.
Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox said her transgender's daughter use of SHE would offend you, and it likely WOULD, heavily. Why? Because her daughter was born LOOKING, outwardly that is, like they were male. But, in fact, their daughter is female.
If you were do to a genetic profile on her, you would likely find an xXY makeup. Meaning that while the Y is there which influenced enough to outwardly look male, the fact that she is primarily female, genetically speaking, means that she is "hardwired" internally, to be female. It's just that her body, outwardly, happened to be born LOOKING male.
So yeah, you say it doesn't bother you, but if you saw her, as she was born appearing male, you would scream at her saying she's "being evil" because she's transitioning to her true gender. THAT is what this individual is talking about.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
He didn't show ANY hate he actually showed common sense. He's correct on everything he said especially the hypocrisy.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ If you were do to a genetic profile on her, you would likely find an xXY makeup”
Then get that done and then get a Trans Card.
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Alexandria Marie Tipsword
Preferred pronoun usage is not about power, it’s about respect. The same respect you give others through automaticity. Calling people by he/she or him/her is a learned behavior. Just like those learned behaviors, you can learn to use preferred pronouns.
No one person is the same as anyone else. Just because you, individually, don’t know or like why someone would want to be referred to as a gender that you don’t understand, doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve that respect as a human being.
It doesn’t hurt you to use a different word to possibly not offend someone else. Intentionally not choosing to use their pronoun of choice does cause offense to them. A group of people who are already discriminated against and have an extremely high suicide rate because of said discrimination.
Never in your life will you ever know how it feels to walk in their shoes. Knowing people are actively against you, all because you asked them to call you by a preferred pronoun, so you can possibly feel included in the same kind of respect the rest of humanity seems to automatically get.
and just because humans have been using the same gender pronouns for hundreds or thousands of years, doesn’t mean they have to now, and it doesn’t mean it’s absolute or right.
Change is inevitable. Change is constant. Whether you want it to be or not.
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Russel A. Kester
Alexandria, it does seem that there's an element of power involved just because one, individually, wants to demand it of an entire society. While change does occur, those who create change solely for the sake of change are disruptive to society. Change should happen when it's actually needed. There is much to be said for continuity. Humans have been using personal pronouns and infected verbs for centuries because they work and make communication clearer. There are things that societies as a whole decide on and gender usage is one of them. It's bigger than a group of activists who relish their efforts to make society as confused as they are.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
An' harm ye none do as ye Will.
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David George Promis
Well put!
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Danny D. Maynard
Hardly!
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Rev. MichaelRS
"That means any context where pronoun declaration is common".
"...where pronoun declaration is COMMON."
THAT is the problem.
Placating such delusions has become COMMON.
For over 6,000 years of human history language has reflected the gender binary. The reason it has done that is because, other than rare physiologically abnormal outliers, it has been, and continues to be, a self-evident truth.
But these days biological truth matters not when it comes to this Insidious infection of the mind
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Actually wrong. For centuries, men have sometimes been called SHE, women have sometimes been called HE, and individuals whose gender are not revealed are called THEY.
It's only in the MODERN era with internet, has it become a big thing because individuals have been using their religion to become absolutely obsessed with what's in a person's pants. And I find it sickening. Someone being trans, or Lesbian, or Gay, or otherwise, LGBTQ+ in general, goes back for millenia. It's only now, as the modern bigots are crawling out of the woodwork screaming their hate, that people have been having public fits about it and trying to make rules to punish people for being, well, human.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
the tq ruined everything the LGB ever did and set them back decades.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
G and Q are interchangable. G - Gay = Q - Queer. Same thing, different words. Same with L and Q being the same - L - Lesbian = Q - Queer.
As far as being Trans - that is 100% natural as well. In fact it's been documented in human history for centuries, long before the modern era. These individuals were considered to have "two souls" one male, and one female. They were often spiritual leaders, though they did not always take spouses or have children.
It wasn't until the advent of the Catholic / Christian churches did people with such natures to them start being vilified and mistreated. Something that shows heavily even in the modern era, sadly. And when I say Catholic / Christian, I'm talking most monotheistic faiths, not just Catholics and Christians, obviously.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, that is not correct. Please brush up on your Queer critical theory reading. Queer theory erases gay and lesbian because it erases those categories by blurring the boundary between male and female. This you end up with an activist group telling lesbians they cannot belong to lesbian groups if they refuse to have sex with a biological male who identified as female. There was once upon a time when your statement would have been correct, but no longer. That is part of the problem with Neo Marxist bars critical theories that seek to deconstruct our current language usage in favor of new usages that its activists scholars and warriors have reconstructed to suit their purposes. It would be wonderful to go back to the days when they did mean the same. But it will take effort to fight against the crazy wokeism that promotes these confusions.
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Danny D. Maynard
Please tell us what gender those who are naturally born without any sex organs and those who are born with both sets. The "both" part occurs about 1 in 2,000 births. That is rather common! The Bible is clearly wrong.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And what do you think about those women who have freakishly large clits? I've seen their pictures in spiritual porn mags. I bet they have a lot more fun, especially with bi-sexuals.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
They are considered hermaphrodites. While quite rare, they are more common than people might think. Though, children born with the hermaphroditic condition are often altered by parent request to be either "all male" - outward appearance that is, or "all female" - outward appearance that is.
It is rare that the parents allow their children that are born with such condition to continue living life with the way they were actually born. Sadly, those born in such circumstances, that transition to their true gender, are usually badly treated and vilified, even by their own parents.
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Rev Mark D
Going to enjoy watching this, two corrupt phony pathological entity groups battling each other, a struggle that for once could have an ultimate legitimate winner: non-pathological, normal society.
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Catherine
Another optimist : . )
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Catherine
How does this discussion not end at an inevitable impasse? What of value is gained by either side pushing the other around?
Same as right to free speech doesn't imply a right to be heard, identifying with a personal pronoun does not mean anyone else has to use it. How could that realistically be enforced?
Insistance that the rest of the world keep up with an individual's self-dentification which could change, is not reasonable. Though neither is insistence that every individual strictly identifies as male or female.
On one hand, I think isn't the English language in the U.S. complicated enough? On the other, why shouldn't individuals identify as they please?
And how not surprising this involves Wheaton, Illinois, where there are more churches in a square mile than almost any other area in the U.S. Though I don't bother with clarifying personal pronouns, if ever there was a good place to start a ruckus about that, Wheaton is prime territory.
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Danny D. Maynard
Religious terrorists are not kind or nice to those who do not follow their particular chosen brand of mythology!
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Russel A. Kester
Danny, I think it is the woke tans activist terrorists who have made this an issue for society not religious persons.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Russel, exactly what does "Woke" mean, hm? And what are "woke tans?" And no, there's no such thing as "woke terrorists".
As far as this thing with pronouns is concerned? It's the RELIGIOUS individuals that have made this a huge issue. The hate-filled BIGOTS that have made this an issue.
Kind, honorable, honest, respectful, individuals know that this is not an issue. People who believe in treating other humans as fellow humans, instead of trying to ram them into square boxes, or trying to get them killed out of religious zealotry.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget woke means to be very excessive in your progressive critical theories and forcing those theories onto others in society. It is exactly what is being done now by the efforts to change our language to conform to a new definition of terms we have used for centuries. As far as wook terrorists go, that is one of those things that is changed by this system unintentionally it should have been woke theorists. It is not religious persons who have caused this problem. They are holding the line on their culture and their beliefs. It is the Social Justice scholars and warriors who have insisted on changing our language. They could have come up with their own terms to use, but they didn't. Instead they have taken words already in use and have worked very hard to redefine those terms. This is wrong. I and others will do everything we can to continue to fight against this nonsense.
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Parson Golden
Respecting peoples individual pronouns is little different than respecting peoples individual religions, or nicknames. It makes no difference to any university, Christian or otherwise how people prefer to be addressed.
Leave it to some good “Christians” to spread a little hate wherever they can.
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ServantOfJudgement
Sane people won't refer to a singular person as they or xem. Religion not required, just logic. We don't actually believe the funky pronoun person believes their own line of drivel, we know it's just a show. If they're possessed then I'd entertain the idea.
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James Mounts
"...person believes their own line of drivel,.."
Don't you mean "his own line of drivel", or "his or her own line of drivel" "person" is singular, "their" is plural..
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Catherine
"Their" implies owning, not a plural. "They're" is plural.
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James Mounts
"Their" is the possessive form of "they" "His" implies owning by an individual; "her" implies owning by a female individual; "their" implies owning by a group.
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Catherine
@James Mounts
I keep saying how times are changing.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
"Recently, the Chicago Manual Style and the Associated Press (AP) style book have both announced that they will be accepting they/them/their as an example of a singular and/or gender-neutral pronoun."
Makes sense, since one human with multiple identities can identify as 'they'.
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Catherine
So it is. Though 'their' does imply ownership or a belonging.
Even so, nitpicking at people's words does not make any other point than you are nitpicking while not addressing the topic.
Did you have a point other than to correct grammar when that grammar does not cause misunderstanding?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
What about shim? I've heard some police officers use that term in reference to certain people. What do you think that implies. I've never heard of anyone referring to h or herself as a shim.
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Catherine
@Carl Bernard Elfstrom
'Shim' is a more inclusive term, and for now seems like urban slang.
Found this interesting:
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
"Recently, the Chicago Manual Style and the Associated Press (AP) style book have both announced that they will be accepting they/them/their as an example of a singular and/or gender-neutral pronoun."
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Lady Mutt Cat
As a former editor and newspaper writer, I’m sickened to see both of these publications knuckle under to political correctness.
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Patricia Ann Gross
APA (version 7) is as well.
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ServantOfJudgement
The hive speaks
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Tecla Caryl Loup
They're is a contraction for They are. The apostrophe replaces the missing alphabetic character a.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Are y'all trying to give us an English lesson. Y'all must be school teachers. I don't think that's what they've trying to get us to discuss. Maybe y'all just don't have good reading comprehension skills. Perhaps it might benefit y'all to take a course like reading 0301.
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Rev Mark D
N'uh uh.
How was that? Adolescents looking to manufacture a developmental separation via resistance to parental models. The actual content is meaningless.
Want to deal with real harm, go do something for abused animals, campaign against anti-semitism, work for women who are raped and killed for having an opinion or not wearing a hijab in Iran, help trafficking victims (happy to refer you to a specific place that really needs your help), or do some homework... maybe pay something toward your education instead of letting Mommy and Daddy foot the bill for you to extend your childhood and waste time on their expensive dime.
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Lady Mutt Cat
"Their" is plural. Deal with it.
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ServantOfJudgement
Why did you use he James? Shame shame and hateful.
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James Mounts
Until the rules get changed, not just ignored, "he"is used when the sex is unknown. or "his or her" if you insist on political correctness, but never "their" for an individual. As in "It is a pity he had to drop out and miss his high-school grammar.
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Omope Carter Daboiku
Many languages (Spanish for example) use the plural "you = you all" as a form of respect when speaking with elders. In my Appalachian childhood, we would say "Ask Mrs So-and-so what they want on their plate." (No hillbilly jokes, please.) Some languages don't differentiate between gender and don't even have gendered pronouns; in some, the "pronoun" used means '2-legged, no wing being' versus 4-legged or winged being. *
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Catherine
@James Mounts
How much of life do you miss for correcting what does not cause misunderstanding?
My mistake was due to a lazy habit. However, have you noticed how many people post here, who do not speak English as a first language? And have you never noticed how certain colloquialisms and habits are specific to areas?
Will you discuss the topic? Or do you perceive yourself as a grammar hammer with all else a nail?
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James Mounts
I thought your comments were intended to be humorous, so I responded in kind. Now that I know you really believe your drivel, I tremble for the future.
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William Moses
I found a wallet. I hope they come back to get it. They? Yup, singular.
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Lady Mutt Cat
No. Not singular at all. Just a lazy convention for someone who cannot think to write, "I found a wallet. I hope the person who lost it comes back to get it." Slang should never been substituted for standard, grammatically correct English.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Fully agree with your first two sentences. Because I haven’t actually had a conversation with a transgender person I really can’t say that it’s not a real thing. In fact, I expect there is such a thing. I don’t believe being gay is a “choice“ and this would seem to be an extension of that situation. That being said, it’s just my opinion that a lot of these claims are probably the result of just trying to be ‘in’ with the fad.
I’d probably make an effort to use the pronouns that an individual wanted so far as he/she/him/her. Using ‘ they’ is right out. Even if I were willing to try, which logically I am not, I’d most certainly forget because I’ve done this for 70 years now and it’s going to be a hard switch. And if anybody gets upset when I forget to use the proper pronoun, or refuse to use’ they’ yeah I’m very likely to tell him to go sexually congress themselves.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/805591 Shakespeare used the singular "they". https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-49754930 Singular "They" didn't become plural until about 200 years ago and then became singular again. Language changes. It's not hard to just use the pronouns someone asks you to.
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Patricia Ann Gross
You probably have met and talked to transgenders, but didn't know it. Some of them pass amazingly (and I'm not just talking about "drag.") I know a trans-man that you would never know was born female if you didn't know him as a child. I have also met some trans-women that pass amazingly as women. All these people would be unable to use a public restroom without risk of arrest if the laws required them to use the one assigned to their birth gender.
The switch to "they" is not as hard if you consider it the "gender neutral" pronoun, when the (single) person could be either male or female (and you strictly adhere to the "binary"). I do that quite often, and APA allows prefers it rather than using "he or she" or "him/her" when writing academic papers.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Saying that I have probably met AND TALKED to transgender people and wasn’t aware of it is a push. How can you say that? Do you mean probably Hass to be above 50%. Probably did something probably didn’t do something there’s a cut off there it’s a black-and-white thing. So you think it’s more likely that I’ve actually done this. Why?
If you’re basing your statement on the misconception I live in the United States? Then you might need to reevaluate your opinion. I haven’t lived in the United States for almost 35 years so you may need to factor that in to your algorithm. Does your algorithm for making that decision include something that says that I’m likely to be meeting a lot of people? If so, change that algorithm.
As I have said before, I will make an effort to use the desired pronoun. If I mess up, and that’s pointed out to me in a jovial,’Hehehe, I understand why that mistake can happen’ sort of way I would continue to try to use the’ desired pronouns’. However, if the person gets offended and makes a big deal of it, I will tell clearly them to eff-off.
As for the ’they’ pronoun I will use it as it comes naturally. When I’m talking about a single individual then I’m going to use he and she. I’m not going to make an effort to use ‘they’ in that situation. And if they call me on it, I’m gonna tell them directly that they’re wrong and once again they can eff-off.
People only have to like me enough to pay me, have sex with me, and play golf with me. And that can be flipped around to say that as far as going out of my way to make people happy, I will only do so in as much as I want you to pay me, have sex with me, or play golf with me.
I have a rather compact sub-routine in my OS that controls my thought filters. Not everything that I think gets expressed, but in actuality, most of it does. Unless you fall in one of those above categories, my social necessities are kept to a minimum. And the behavior of others can just turn off that sub-routine.
Asking me to use a plural pronoun when a singular pronoun is obviously called for will turn off my effing filters.
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Patricia Ann Gross
You said: "As for the ’they’ pronoun I will use it as it comes naturally. When I’m talking about a single individual then I’m going to use he and she. I’m not going to make an effort to use ‘they’ in that situation. And if they call me on it, I’m gonna tell them directly that they’re wrong and once again they can eff-off." See, it's not as hard as you thought, is it?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Oddly enough I had pondered the situation where ‘they’ is used to potentially refer to a single individual. It seems to be appropriate when using ‘someone’ or anyone.
Again, not an issue where I live. The trend/fad hasn’t caught on here.
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Patricia Ann Gross
You are right, I don't know you, where you live, or who you interact with. I'm just saying that I know many in the gender-fluid and transgender community that if I posted their pictures you could not accurately determine the correct "gender assigned at birth" for most of them. I also know several cis-gendered people who are commonly mistaken for the other gender and I am one of them. I understand that regional variations exist, and since you live outside the US, I apologize for making assumptions.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
No apologies necessary. I’m American. I simply expatriated 30+ years ago. I’m sure I sound American. But given the last 8 years I would renounce my citizenship if such were an easy process here in Japan. The country is an embarrassment.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Wrong. When referring to a person where no gender is spoken, they can be both multiple individuals or a single individual. Any SANE, intelligent, individual who knows proper english grammar knows that much.
Your hate is showing greatly.
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, you are mistaken. You've bought into or were indoctrinated into Woke ideology seeking to change our culture and language. They is not and must not be used for the third person singular only the plural. And SANE, intelligent person who knows PROPER English grammar know that much. Your ignorance is showing greatly.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
LOL No there is no "woke ideology". And yeah, THEY are not only plural but also singular, even in the Oxford and other dictionaries. Or is the dictionary "woke" now? Hm?
And yeah, all sane, intelligent, individuals who know proper english grammar know that much as well. I'm guessing you failed your english and grammar classes? Or did you take it as a second language and are struggling with some of our plural vs singular.
Btw, Woke means to be Awake or Aware of one's surroundings. To be "Not Woke" means to be asleep, unaware, or ignorant of one's surroundings.
LOL It's only MAGAs and similar individuals that try to use the idea of being awake and aware of one's surroundings as a bad thing, and have turned it into their personal slang of "It means everything we dislike is Woke!"
But I'm a nice person. I'm going to show you some PROOF that THEY is both plural and a singular word, depending on the context used. It's been that way for over 200 years. It's only MAGAs and others similar that are now throwing fits over the idea that a 200 year old usage of a word is still used that way today.
Oxford Dictionary - They as a singular and as a plural depending on context of use.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
Miriam - Webster dictionary - They used as a singular and plural depending on the context of use.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/singular-nonbinary-they
History of the word "They" - Santa Clara University.
https://www.scu.edu/media/offices/provost/writing-center/resources/Tips-Singular-Pronoun-They.pdf
They / Them depending on usage - Perdue University.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html
I'll leave it at these for now. But I am WELL aware of proper English Grammar thanks. But are you?
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Russel A. Kester
Bridget, in Western countries this is a current conflict brought on by woke activists as alluded to in the following:
"The most common arguments against singular they center around its being ungrammatical, confusing, and simply not 'proper' English. However, using the plural pronoun they to refer to a generic individual is a well-established feature of English, despite grammar-book proscription. https://www.hpu.edu › tesol-workin... The Case for Singular They - Hawaii Pacific University https://www.hpu.edu"
This also addresses Dr. Z's comments about a generic use of 'they.'
Woke activists want to use 'they' to remove gender from our sentences to help erase the gender as a category in our language. This departs from English usage for hundreds of years. I advocate against this bastardization of the English language. Also, woke also is used in current news and conversation to refer to postmodern deconstruction based ideologies which are trying to now reconstruct our language to fit those ideologies.
As to my language skills, I speak, read, and write both English and German as well as a small bit of Spanish. Your attempt to question my understanding of English grammar is childish.
You may state that you are going with Queer critical theory which seeks to remove the categories of male and female and that online dictionaries, as a reflection of how words are being used now, show those entries, but that is very different from saying that such usage is correct and very different indeed from saying it has always been so. It is disingenuous to not reflect in your comments that the use of 'they' as a singular personal pronouns is a new push by activists and is not generally accepted.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, I’ll have a second helping of that RAK.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Bridgett I think you are making a good point. One that I tried to speak to in a post I just made but couldn’t think of an example. Your harangue brought one to mind.
A- A student in my class identifies as a being from a planet orbiting the star Sirius.
B- Well, they are delusional.
However, if I am familiar with the person I will use whatever pronoun strikes me appropriate for how I perceive them(see how that pronoun works)?
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Lady Mutt Cat
All sane, intelligent people know that the word English is spelled with a capital E.
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Catherine
Prejudices are the core. Why not agree on which prejudices serve all people well? Aren't we adult enough to recognize that inequalities make us as equal as equalities? Is anyone so perfect in all ways, as to be able to judge anyone else? Really? Let the childishness stop and let adults behave like adults. Then none of this would be worth mention.
Until then, people who physically change sex, therefore gender, might change their minds, yes? How does the rest of the world keep up with hundreds of thousands of people who do so? Conundrum.
For those who do not commit to physically changing their sex, it seems obvious to refer to them as they were born. Then comes the disparity between those who can afford to commit and those who cannot. Conundrum.
I think what is less discussed is when people consider all humans are equal, personal pronouns need not matter. Yet that requires much of the rest of the world to eschew judging and or condemning what is unfamiliar. Conundrum.
Personal pronouns are mostly referenced in a way that most cultures and societies can easily be on the same page in common, daily discussions. That is especially important because our world has become globally connected.
I think trying to accommodate a dozen personal pronouns is not viable. Maybe within personal spheres. Not throughout the world though, and not even in the United states because... pot stirrers and legal ramifications that complicate lives.
Why not agree to simplify for benefit of all? The world does not revolve around anyone one of us. Why not let each individual be as they are born without judgment and leave each other alone?
Sheezus.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Catherine, I have a better option. Why not do away with all the "boxes," except the one that states "human being." Even when you consider race, the "melting pot" has become so intermixed that it is difficult to determine anyone's race any more. My husband is considered "black" even though he is 3/4 Native American because of his facial features and semi-dark complexion.
The truth is we have this insatiable need to stand out. It is the competitive nature we have been brought up with, and what better way to do that than to make something that is unchangeable the criteria on which to judge. Gender has two forms: a) Birth gender (male, female, intersex, inconclusive genetalia), and b) gender identity which is an infinite continuum between female and male which reflects how someone feels about themselves given the societal norms. Sexuality is also an infinite continuum between gay and straight, with several offshoots (asexual, polyamorous to name two).
Until we can do away with all of the labels and start to accept people for simply being human beings, this "conundrum" will exist.
As for changing their minds, this is not really a "thing," because before any medical transition occurs, the patient has to undergo serious therapy and be approved by at least one therapist to have the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" which is a disorder defined in the DSM-5. Although it probably does happen, the process takes years to go through the chemical transition and they have to live as the new gender before any surgery can be done. That eliminates a lot of the "outliers" you are concerned about.
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Lady Mutt Cat
When I was an undergraduate many moons ago, one of the lines on our registration cards was for race. I always wrote in human. The Powers That Be started using those boxes to frustrate people like me.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, if it takes years before surgeries can be performed, then why is it that a doctor with Portland Health and Science University testified before Congress that he's personally performed surgery on children and showed a video of these procedures? You've bought into a lie.
We are individuals and those boxes you refer to help us to understand ourselves and our relationships with families and society. They also help our governor to ensure that people are not being unfairly discriminated against.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I am aware that there are extreme exceptions to the statement, one being a child born with "ambiguous genetalia" that make it impossible to determine gender without a DNA test. These children are altered for medical reasons (primarily to help facilitate urination and address other urinary tract complications). If someone has done it to a child without going through the generally accepted protocols, that's on them, not me, and they are the ones who bought into the lie.
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Parson Golden
And some people are hateful and mean and exemplify a lack of respect for others that they consider to be unworthy of basic respect.
So you be you.
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Wow, 206 comments and their replies n
It's really not a big issue, it's a business issue entirely... When you're on company time or representing the company is defined in that paragraph at the beginning, your time is not your own, and you are denied the right to make a personal privilege at the expense of your employer, and this is a policy that applies as a condition of your employment. End of story. It's different when you're on your own personal time and personal business, then your personal needs can be precedent. So it's just a business matter regarding boundaries. What's the problem? Answer: it's not a problem, it's manufactured.