75-year-old Paige Patterson, president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, has come under fire after old sermons resurfaced revealing his dismissive attitude toward domestic abuse and utter disinterest for the safety of female parishioners - among other distasteful views.
The firestorm erupted some two weeks ago when a site called the Baptist Blogger posted a video of a sermon Patterson gave back in 2000. A woman had confided that her husband had beaten her. He suggested she endure the domestic abuse and pray over it rather than file for divorce. She returned with two black eyes. "I hope you're happy," she told him. "Yes...I'm very happy," Patterson responded, explaining that the husband had heard her prayers and come to church for the first time the next day a victory in his book.
Unsurprisingly, the revelations drew an outcry from women's rights activists and church members far and wide. Thousands of parishioners and church leaders are now demanding Patterson's removal just weeks before his scheduled keynote sermon at the Southern Baptist annual convention. Patterson is refusing to step down.
"Trust God to Judge"
Had Patterson apologized, the story might have disappeared from the headlines. But amidst the growing controversy, he instead doubled down on his views. "I can't apologize for what I didn't do wrong," he said in a statement.
Patterson also insists that he did advise at least several abused women to leave their husbands. But that claim seems dubious in light of a 2013 sermon in which he suggested women suffering from domestic abuse should never contact the authorities for assistance, and instead let God be the judge:
"Settle it within the church of God. And if you suffer for it, and if you were misused, and if you were abused, and if you're not represented properly, it's okay. You can trust it to the God who judges justly."
As outrage over these statements grew, the seminary apparently frustrated by internal criticism fired a PhD student who called for Patterson's firing on Twitter, claiming the student's "indiscreet" tweets did not "exhibit conduct becoming a follower of Jesus."
#MeToo Issues Exposed
In the days since the original blog post, more of Patterson's disturbing comments have surfaced. In a 2014 sermon, he told a story in which an attractive 16-year-old girl walked past him. In Patterson's words, "she was nice." When a young man commented: "Man, is she built!" he was harshly scolded by his mother. But Patterson quickly intervened: "Ma'am, leave him alone. He's just being biblical."
Another damning video uploaded onto the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary website mysteriously stopped working when the allegations picked up steam. It featured Patterson criticizing female seminary students for failing to adequately doll themselves up during a 2010 sermon. "It shouldn't be any wonder why some of you don't get a second look," Patterson reportedly said.
Searching for Justice
In the wake of the revelations, more than 2,000 women have signed a letter drafteddemanding Patterson's ouster. "The Southern Baptist Convention cannot allow the biblical view of leadership to be misused in such a way that a leader with an unbiblical view of authority, womanhood, and sexuality be allowed to continue in leadership," the letter says.
Among the signees is Liberty University professor Karen Swallow Prior. In her view, these issues have been simmering in the church for some time now:
"I've been in Baptist circles my whole life," she explains. "It is absolutely more than about Patterson This is about people and systems that have allowed individuals to get away with this behavior for decades. Things have changed."
In the past, Southern Baptist women frustrated by such blatant sexism would simply drift to more progressive denominations. However, this time it's different. Perhaps bolstered by the success of the #MeToo movement, these women have shown they're no longer afraid to speak out.
Is Change Coming?
Back in 2016, we wrote about the "Holy Hush" a pervasive issue in which the church silences victims and takes the abuser's side in cases of domestic violence.
There is an obvious and inherent hypocrisy here: people like Paige Patterson preach about living by the teachings of Jesus, while simultaneously looking the other way as a serious sin - domestic abuse - goes on unchecked.
The implications of this recent turmoil reach beyond any single denomination or church community. Patterson may be feeling the heat right now, but his is only the latest in a string of #MeToo revelations involving faith communities. These myriad stories have cast a revealing spotlight on church leaders, proving how out-of-touch, aloof and in some cases, complicit they have been when dealing with domestic violence and sexual harassment.
What do you think? Have we finally reached a breaking point?
[Update 5/23]: The Washington Post reports that Paige Patterson has been removed as seminary president. The Post also reported that another allegation emerged as the seminary's board was deciding whether or not to keep him on:
"Patterson allegedly told a woman who said she had been raped while a student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. in 2003 that she should not report her allegations to the police and encouraged her to forgive her alleged assailant. Patterson was that seminary's president at the time. The story was published as the seminary's board was meeting. Patterson did not respond to requests for comment on the alleged incident."
195 comments
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Mike
Wow, this is seriously troubling. "Paige", let us start with that little tidbit. My guess is that Paige may have issues stemming from teasing or bullying in his school years. This is not an excuse for his behavior but rather a possible explanation of its beginning. He may have been told to pray to God for help and keep it to himself rather than adults in his life acting appropriately and helping. At this point, Paige has crossed over. He is no longer to be considered a religious leader but rather someone who is an accessory to many crimes, he should be charged with impeding justice and criminal investigations, and oh yes... a Chauvinist. I believe there is a saying from his part of the South; "you can put a dress on a pig, but it's still a pig". My point from this saying is that although he is in the position of "leader", perhaps that is the "dress".
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Norma Battes
Well gang, time to fly the cuckoos nest. Enjoy the holiday.
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Diane Baum
that "preacher" has been removed from his "church." and to all the rest of you who commented here, I cannot believe how this topic has created so much ill will. Can we not all just agree that violence against anyone is a sin? There is no definition at all of "well, if that person didn't do that I wouldn't have reacted as I did!" Jesus is Love. He came in Love and died for all of us--in Love. That is all we need to know. if you want to be like Jesus, practice Love. Not hate. Not anger. Not judgment. Just love. That is all.
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DJ
Covering up rape & Holy Hush? Is this man insane? I do believe however, that at this time in our collective history, much evil is coming to the forefront to be dealt with & released from our planet. This type of behavior must stop.
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sheryl A clyde
So you think that women married to men with money and power are not abused? Think again the only difference is that they are even more likely to put up with it and hide it because of the situation. Money, power and lack of pressure has nothing to do with men who beat their women your making excuses for the mans behavior again. What you don't get is that the women and many people here are not arguing about the pastor perse but the men's actions and his okayness with it. The pastor himself was punished by the church for his actions and removed. I am satisfied with what they did.
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I.S. Johnson
So this is how we are going to conduct ourselves, we are going to sift through the entire lives of each person and find things to judge them on. Isn't technology grand?
I remember these words... 'Judge not lest ye be judged', 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone', 'Pull the log from your own eye before you pick at the spec in your brother's eye'. Judgement is just anger turned into hate. Hate begets hate. Anyone can learn, anyone can change and grow IF THEY ARE WILLING TO LOOK AT THEMSELVES. Ignorant words are just that, words. Words cannot hurt me unless I choose to be hurt. The only things I have any control of in this life are my actions toward myself and others, and my reactions to the actions and words of others.
If you really want to stop violence against women do away with, Poverty, Homelessness, Hunger, Unemployment, Billionaires, Millionaires, Corporations and all the pressure they place on the individual citizen. How about teaching Civics in school again? How about a Societal Consequences Tax on violent video games, T.V. Shows and movies? How about taking some real action to unite our nation as Americans first? Or is it just easier to Pillory some old man for his ignorance. Isn't it time for America to grow up yet? Or is it more entertaining to do nothing and complain about nothing being done?
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sheryl A clyde
The Pastor was in the wrong period. As far as throwing stones. There is no punishment in the usa for incorrect counseling by pastors. The most that will happen is that he gets his hand slapped if at all. I have no problem forgiving the pastor if he asks for it and if he repents. But he needs to stop counseling women to stay with a husband who could end up killing them.
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Judge
Sheryl, nobody is asking you to forgive the pastor. He will not ask your forgiveness. Pastor Patterson doesn't even know you. He wont repent, because he is right in the eyes of God, according to The Bible. According to Christ, the victim has to forgive the abuser, turn the other cheek and help him. Even love your enemies. If the victim dies, will go to Haven, many Christians died martyrs, smiling. God is the judge. Forgiveness works miracles, try it. Western society still see death as a final thing, the animal view. Billions in the West and East can tell you that death is not the final thing, but part of life, so Sheryl, you can stop being afraid of death, I can tell you for sure, because I was dead and now I'm alive. Look up Plato's cave, it is true, people live in the dark. When you will see and stay in the light you will be a new person. Enlightenment is the answer to everything, be Christ like, not world like, it is the narrow path, the high way.
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sheryl A clyde
So it is okay for a man to beat a woman and kill her? She should suffer and be glad for it because God will reward her in Heaven? Boy do I feel sorry for you when you meet Christ for that kind of thinking. Talk about justifying bad behavior on a man's part.
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Norma Battes
sheryl clyde May 20, 2018 at 9:15 am " Talk about justifying bad behavior... "
Ms. Sheryl, I've read many of your posts over the months and have one comment - rational doesn't work on the irrational. Be amazed and keep moving.
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Carol W Waldenburg
Your words belie ideas of grandiosity and extreme egocentrism.
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Mike
Oh my.... That is an unfortunate misunderstanding and thus misrepresentation of the Bible. "Turn the other cheek" was not meant to dehumanise man nor accept everything that occurs or is done to him without thought or correction (justice in today's terms). It was meant to convey forgiveness but not with total ignorance to the situation, just with vengeance. Please don't convey that everyone must accept what others do to them and just accept it, especially in the case of abuse. That would be immoral, and not proper guidance.
For example; when Pagie is stoned to death for his ignorance and failure to properly help and guide, even cause more harm, will that be acceptable? Hmmm maybe that wasn't such a good example.
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Mike
That should have said "WITHOUT vengeance".
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Rev. Ralph Vendegna
The lady who was abused by her husband should have went to authorities and had him arrested, then file for divorce. As for this ungodly pastor, the Southern Baptist hierarchic should have taken his credentials away and removed from preaching. This man is NOT a man of God. Yes God will deal with him in time and he will pay for what he did and his false teachings. No person in any type of ministry should act in any way like this nor teach false teachings, or taking the word of God out of context. If the Officials of the Southern Baptist Convention have an ounce of Brains, they would revoke this mans preaching credentials and remove him from the ministry immediately.
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Judge
So you are the one to trow the first stone, because you are without sin, right "Reverend"? Revenge is your answer? Nobody learned yet that you can't stop violence with more violence or punishment? It only leads to more violence. Try to read about Christ, Ghandi or South Africa, how they stopped the satanic trap, the circle of violence, by forgiving.
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sheryl A clyde
This is not a matter of someone being killed for what they did judge nor is it a matter of violence against the husband. It is protecting the woman and putting the man into jail temporarily while she gets a order of protection and leaves. That is what happens in these cases in the USA. I am sorry that other things happen in your country but it is not like that here.
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sheryl A clyde
But concerning someone being killed I am sure that Christ would side with a woman who was in danger as He did with the woman who committed adultery. His entire ministry was about laying your life down for others and protecting women. It does not mean it gives men a excuse to beat women because they are suppose to lay down their life for him.
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Judge
Sheyl, the accused here is Rev Patterson, he is about to get stoned by people like you. You trow the stone at Patterson, because you are the perfect Christian and have no sin right?. Jesus takes the side of the accused, men or woman, and preached forgiveness, because all have sin and if you want justice you will get justice for yourself too, not Grace. If you just think of murder or other sin, you committed it, said Yeshua. I made it clear so many times, your brains must be scrambled. People that think like you killed Christ.
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Secretary3rd
A long time ago in London England women wanted the right to vote. They march with signs and voice their wants. They were met with kicks, punches, and a lot of physical abuse. They were also met with preachers that said they were Satin in skirts. They fought back by attacking coal oil burning pubs as well as churches down. Turning preachers into Eunuchs. They made such a fuss that even the royal family could be seen marching with these women. Flash to this century maybe God should take charge and turn said preacher who has not the problem with women being beaten up. Turn said preacher into an Eunuch. For it has been written so shall it be done.
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Tom
He's absolutely correct. If a husband is abusing his wife, God should be the judge. So therefore, the wife should arrange that meeting a lot lot sooner and preferably while the husband is sleeping.
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Cris Bessette
lol
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Jack
BOOM!
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Judge
Tom, you just committed a crime in writing, in an online public forum. You just instigated women to commit murder. You raised red flags now, depending of the country you live in, you may be prosecuted, loose your actual or future job and other nasty things can happen to you as a result of your stupidity. Precrime supercomputers are scanning the internet for criminals like you and they will track you down. People can report you and they will. You may just ruined your life, many people did it like this. We are past 1984.
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The Doctor
Drudge you continue to sound more and more imbalanced. Nothing about what he said could be construed as other then wishful thinking.
It does not remotely constitute a serious threat by him towards another or the like. You clearly dont understand law and are certainly incapable of sound reason.
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Judge
T'Keren, when I'm from, people were prosecuted for comments like his, it lead to murder or suicide. You support murder? The world is a lot bigger than your view, you must be a government agent, I checked you out, you are trolling all over the net, picking fights with people.
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JG
One of the reasons I got ordained through this church is that it is one of the very, very few out there that had a mission statement I could agree with. A church that, in theory at least, welcomes all. It has been incredibly disheartening to see the amount of dogmatic crap and outright hatred expressed by many of its members. How very sad.
On to the subject of this article:
With the exception of reasonable self defense, any man that abuses a woman or child in any way is not a man, but is at best an animal. And using dogma and doctrine to excuse it, to say that 'God said this is okay!', is utter crap. And furthermore, the only times I have ever resorted to violence with men was for self defense. There is always a better way, but once they start swinging, I ain't just gonna turn the other cheek.
I know many people, good people, men and women alike that were abused horribly, my wife and myself among them. I stayed in an abusive marriage far longer than I should have because when I took those vows, I meant it.
Dumbest damn thing I ever did.
With my current wife, I have begun to heal, and so has she. We do our best to help many of our friends who have also been abused.
Fact: the bible condones abuse of women and children (under the guise of male led punishment), says that women are property and should be silent, condones slavery, and even states that disobedient children should be taken and stoned. And that the man should be happy for having done so!
Also fact: the bible also says 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' and 'love they neighbor as thyself'.
Personally, I find nothing clear about the bible. Massively open to interpretation, contradictory, the fact that there are so incredibly many denominations floating around out there and not a single one able to completely agree with another about how the book should be interpreted should be blindingly clear evidence of how flawed this man written book is.
And at the same time, the best idea ever to come down the pike is in there too. "Treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself". What a simple, beautiful idea! And what a shame that people had to go and build a massively flawed belief system around it.
All my life, I've been around people who cherry pick whatever portion of the bible happens to chime with their own personal beliefs. The simple truth is, there's a passage somewhere in there to excuse every kind of behavior, good or bad.
Me, I just try to be a decent human being. And part of that is not abusing anyone, man, woman or child. Part of that is treating the people I meet with courtesy and respect, man, woman, child, gay, straight, bi, or purple with pink polka dots, unless they give me cause to do otherwise.
I have known men and women that made the mistake of going to their pastor or church for counseling concerning marital problems. I say mistake, because in almost every instance, they were advised to stick it out and pray. In every instance, the problems just got worse until the light bulb went on and they got the hell out. And speaking from personal experience, I have no fear of burning in hell for making the choice to get away from a woman that went out of her way to make my life hell and to this day still takes great joy in using my son as a weapon against me.
I will say this, I have also known pastors that aided the abused in escaping their abusers, and to them I say thank you, especially to the one that helped my current wife escape hers. I won't even go into the atrocities my wife endured other than to say that had she not taken her son and run, I haven't the slightest doubt she would be dead by now.
The bible says a great many things, and has been a wonderfully convenient excuse for countless atrocities . But I'll take common sense and common decency any day. I am a man of faith, but not blind faith. It has been my personal experience that the massively flawed man made institution of organized religion has been the cause of far more problems than it's ever been a solution for.
I know that statement will offend some, but as I clearly stated, this has been MY experience. For me, faith is enough. I have faith that men like this idiot preacher that condones violence against women will get his comeuppance on the other side. It is also my sincere hope that he is stopped from causing further harm while he's still on this side of the veil. I have faith that ALL abusers, male or female, will receive their comeuppance on the other side. The sad truth is, very few of them do in life, and continue to be abusers.
To anyone who hasn't suffered abuse, count yourself fortunate, but don't you dare pass judgement on those who have been, because you are passing judgement on something you know absolutely nothing about, dogma be damned.
To all who have suffered, I wish you peace.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
IMHO You are awesome and a deeply spiritual person. Thanks for your words of reason, care and love.
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sheryl A clyde
Any set of ideals, organization or religion no matter what it is can be abused by a human for their own gain. Any book used for self help can be misinterpreted especially if it several hundred years old. If someone is bad and wants to find a excuse to justify bad behavior they will do so no matter what. Blaming the religion is ridiculous because the fault lies with the person misusing it not with the book.
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sheryl A clyde
As for abuse goes my dear I know all about it all to well. So I happen to be a expert on it people using things to justifying bad behavior.
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Frank and Stein
JG, you are OK for this church to welcome all, the Satanists, Nazis, KKK, ISIS and other haters? I have news for you buddy, this is not a church, it is a business and your credentials from here are good nowhere. Try to get a job with this. You don't buy your credentials, you earn them
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sheryl A clyde
The majority of people don't use this for anything other than to marry someone. As for planting a church or starting one the usa government is even more forgiving and anything can be considered a church so yes they can start their own churches even if they can not be hired by one. Christ can use anyone to do His work even liberal churches. I personally don't agree with everything this denomination states but I joined so I could marry people and be a witness that way. Not everyone wants to lead a church. Some of us are content to perform other kinds of service.
You also forget that the early church Christ never choose someone who had a lot of schooling or knowledge. He choose ordinary people who lived ordinary lives not the theologians of His day. So God does not value college degrees only people do.
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Frank and Stein
Incorrect, Sheryl, Paul was a schooled Pharisee, a teacher of The Law in The Temple, and he wrote half of The New Testament. Top scholar of that time. I was talking about being hired by a church, not something else. Antibody can start a church, you don't need credentials. I'm not a college schooled pastor either, just self taught, I thought this will give me some sort of legitimacy as a missionary. There is a magician in The Bible that wanted to buy what the apostles had with money...they cursed him...so we may be all cursed here
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sheryl A clyde
Why do you people always forget about the ones Christ choose? The twelve Christ choose were ordinary men. Paul was the exception to the rule. Try reading the gospels for a change and get your nose out of the pauline books.
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sheryl A clyde
Paul was also chosen after Christ died and rose into heaven so he was NOT one of the original 12 chosen by Christ.
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sheryl A clyde
If we are cursed then all those that go to seminary college are even more so cursed. They pay for their degrees as well. It is a fact of life of our current society.
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Carol W Waldenburg
THAT EXPLAINS SO MUCH - thank you for that self-disclosure about your lack of education James!!
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Judge
It is easy to take the side of the apparent victim JG, you are the hero and everybody applause and feel good. But there are two sides of a story, justice is blind, lies are told and evidence is fabricated. But God's justice is perfect, that's what Pastor Patterson say. He doesn't condones violence against women, that only got into your head because you are biased by the hatred you have in your heart, read the story again. People look at the effect and not at the root of the problem. Same like Big Pharma, just fix the symptoms. It is always cause and effect and nobody in an abusive relationship is innocent. Comes to your definition of abuse also. I was beaten with a stick thinner than the thumb and that was not abuse, it made me stronger and now I thank the "abuser". Split, divorce, that is your selfish, cowardly response? Instead of fixing the problem at it's root, you just do the cowardly thing and abandon the one that you swore to protect no matter what, till death. You brake that sacred oath and you will pay, sooner or later, one way or another. Instead of helping the person who obviously needs help you jump ship like an animal, like rats or the cat you don't feed. I understand women do that, they are like cats, but you are suppose to be the man, the dog, not a chicken. Your society and feminism made men into selfish greedy little bitches that forgot what a man is. The purpose of this life is to help the other, not your selfish desire to so called american dream of happiness, all greed and vanity, but to serve others. Christ said that the greatest thing a person can do is to lay down his/her's life for the other. You see dogmatic crap and outright hatred here because they are the result of your society, this are all fake ministers here, they bought credentials with money. Only true spirituality, being born again, enlighten, out of Plato's cave, Budhahood will evolve you from an animal to a creature God like and only then you will be happy, even in suffering. Remember my words when tragedy will hit you, it comes every time, it is The Universal Law of Karma.
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sheryl A clyde
No one deserves to be beaten. No one. There is no such thing as two sides to every story because nothing a woman can say deserves a beating. A man is stronger then a woman and can easily kill her if he is not careful. You walk away if things get heated period. I don't care if she stands in front of the door you gently move her to the side and walk away. Go cool off. Give the argument time to settle between you both. Don't come back home until she has also cooled off.
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Frank and Stein
Sheryl, you are out of topic, you replied to the Judge comment about JB leaving his wife because she was abusive. Corporal punishment worked for thousands of years. It was and it is the survival of the strongest, that's why human race is degenerate now and destroyed the planet, because you go against nature. The muslims and others say they are right, not you. You inflict violence and killing all over the world on women and children and then you preach here the opposite?...hypocrites with double standards. We have an anatomical reptilian and mammalian brain, and if you push a person over the limit, the animal brain takes over, in fight or flight mode, and they will fight you or run. Man usually will fight you, they are build like that. This are medical facts, deserve has nothing to do with it, it is an automatic response, crossing that line leads to violence. It is your prison of beliefs that your culture conditioned on you to believe what you are saying, and who do you think you are forcing your believe system all over the world by force?
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sheryl A clyde
I take it you are not christian but muslim. I am sorry but i don't go by your beliefs. A man that needs to beat a woman to keep her is no man but a coward who picks on the weak. Cowards beat the weak and run from the strong. The brave stand up to everyone. So who is braver the man who beats up weak women or the woman who endures it and stands up to him anyway?
I was the woman who was beaten and I stood up to him anyway so don't you talk to me about what is and isn't right you pompous you know what.I was the one who stood between him and my children and kept him from hurting them. I was the one who left him because he would not stop. Men like you don't deserve a woman.
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Frank and Stein
Sheryl, you know nothing about me, I'm sorry you were beaten, I'm not supporting that at all, I only offered you an explanation that I read here and seems to me to be right. In chess you anticipate the moves. If you don't provoke somebody, most of the time they don't turn violent, it is a simple cause and effect. It is the Jewish way and they are the smartest people around. I'm saying keep the peace by not bringing the animal out of people, they all have a threshold and loose it. I'm not muslim, don't presume, imagine and "take"
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Frank and Stein
If you guys interested, please come to FB group "Philosophy of Religion and Spirituality", we can continue there, you will learn different belief systems and maybe break free from your prisons
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Cris Bessette
Sheryl, you and I may be fighting a pointless battle against a crazy person. I see "Frank and Stein" made almost the exact same nonsensical reply to you as he did to me about reptillian and mammalian brains yesterday (when he was "Dan")
I'm not a religious person but I agree with you there is no excuse for what these crazy guys are saying about women.
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Frank and Stein
Any well trained law enforcement officer will tell you not to provoke people, they know people snap, that is still nonsensical Cris? Never had anatomy, or social science? Get an education...take your pills...the crazy always call the others crazy...lol You resort to insults now, so low
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sheryl A clyde
You are right cris. He does not understand. Men who beat women use any excuse as a provocation. Soon it becomes looking at the ground as a excuse, not cooking the right meal etc etc. Men who beat take their frustrations out on women and it has nothing to do with the woman.
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Cris Bessette
Okie okie Franken Dan, whoever you are, If it hops like a rabbit, has fuzzy ears like a rabbit, it's probably a rabbit. Same with crazy.
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Daryl Geddie
What I don't understand is how people think the world so complicated.
Life is simple.. There are two guiding ideals that should be more than enough for any person to live by.
em·pa·thy ˈempəTHē/ noun the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
con·se·quence ˈkänsikwəns noun plural noun: consequences 1. a result or effect of an action or condition.
Empathy teaches you to treat others as you would want to be treated.
Consequences identify that if you don't empathize and treat others poorly you will be punished (by society)
With common sense there is no need for debate.
If you need a book to understand this or need to believe in flying unicorns to understand this you are lost.
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Frank and Stein
Daryl, why are you a minister? what do you preach if you don't believe in anything?
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Daryl Geddie
:) What from my comment leads you to believe I don't believe in anything?
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Frank and Stein
"If you need a book to understand this or need to believe in flying unicorns to understand this you are lost." that one Most people are lost, telling them that won't help. You need the good book or you need to believe in "flying unicorns", metaphor for God in order to become spiritual and "be found". We all have a believe sys, that's not what we are talking about as ministers, we are talking about a higher power. Most religions believe in gods or a God, that is the meaning of belief here. We all worship a god, if not we make it up, like money, women, drugs, science, the earth, common sense, a chicken, lol etc. So what you believe in and minister to others then?
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sheryl A clyde
God calls for us to deal with such things within the church so that it does not give Christ a bad name. This does not mean we should side with the abuser and tell the wife to endure it. There is a formula for dealing with people and it is putting them out of the church and "handing" them over to the devil until they repent. In this case it would have to be being arrested, counseling on his part lots of it before she even thought of going back or a agreement to divorce her. All those things would have kept the churches name out of the paper.But instead the pastor decided she needed to play the suffering bride put up with it and stay.
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Lee Conner
I trusted God to get me out of harms way instead through divorce and help me find a decent spouse. I'm glad I did. Couldn't care less what the bible or any other spiritual text says on it, because anything or anyone that condones a spouse beating another spouse without a way out for the abused is a mess in progress.
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Raymond dye
As a political candidate no victim shall endure abuse or any other violent offence and as a citizen i may be leave in god, but in no way a violent offender or sex offenders should be allowed to commit a crime against the innocent , using religion to protect criminals is like corrupt officials making laws to protect them against crimes against the people.
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Raymond dye
As for divorces its taking out of context by political and religion , due to fact it is ok divorce if in a abusive or if spouse have relations with another.
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Judge
Biblicaly, only men can divorce the woman, and only for infidelity
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Raymond dye
That's what they write , Granted there is a god but who ever writes the bible only interpreted in there own way , Just like in mathew 7:16 Do not judge, or you too will be judged , what does some preachers and church people do they judge people.
A church use to be an out door thing now its a bout money and brain washing making people think every things a sin.
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Raymond dye
Murder, rape , and adultery domestic abuse and child abuse only true sin's you will go to hell for and judged for in life and in the after life.
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Judge
My name, Dan, means Judge in Hebrew, and I judge and I will be judged...it is OK with me.
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Raymond dye
so dan are you saying you support crimes against woman and kids?
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Judge
Of course not, what are you smoking? my comment was in response to your Mathew 7:16. It is nothing wrong with judging, the only consequence is that you will be judged too. In other words if you seek justice you will get justice for what you did wrong too. The alternative is to choose forgiveness, that way you will step up in Grace, and you will be forgiven too for your wrongs. It is not just in Christianity, this is the Universal law of Karma, you will get what you put out
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Raymond dye
sorry my bad there dan to many people defending criminals , i have a tenancy to be on offensive, lately. personally religion and should not be used in any way to support violence.
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Judge
And how can we not "allow" a criminal to commit a crime? Precrime legislation? How would you like to be arrested because the supercomputer said you will commit a crime? They have it already in Japan. Don't forget that justice is blind, a criminal in your country may be a hero in another, a story has at least two sides and you can't impose your belief sys on others, that is only your prison.
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Judge
OK ministers, from the comments here I conclude that people don't study and understand The Bible. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based on the Old Testament. This ideology say that God has a KINGDOM, as opposed to democracy. The mistakes here arise from people applying their culture and political sys, mostly so called american democracy to the church, witch is supposed to be a kingdom. A kingdom has a hierarchy, God is the head and the slave is at the bottom. From The Bible we see that the woman has authority over the slave and the husband has authority over her. Men are violent, God made them that way, and they turn violent when provoked. When The Bible was written, violence was perfectly acceptable. Corporal punishment was the norm, and it still is in societies that live by the rules of those times, like sharia law for example. Some orthodox monks still beat the demons out of the people and it works. Right and wrong are different in The Kingdom and in the secular. The secular evolves, The Kingdom doesn't, the rules are written in stone. Pastors live in The Kingdom and study The Bible and should apply those rules left to us by God. Women are treated worse in Judaism and Islam, and it comes from Genesis, where we see the woman was made as a helper to man, from his rib (part of him, his possession), brought the sin to man and into the world (listened to Satan) and then was cursed by God when He kicked them out of the garden. Most domestic "abuse" is started by the woman verbally abusing the men and not recognizing authority. The tongue is their weapon, man's weapon is the fist. Both godly given. When two men fight it is not labeled "abuse", I'm wondering why? Materialism and feminism infiltrated the Kingdom of God, the church in N America is totally degenerate, modified to suit the culture. Capitalism (greed) and feminism (vanity) feed on each other and rule your society. You have a choice, live in The Kingdom, by it's rules, or live secular, but don't try to criticize or change The Kingdom of God, you only fight against God and His Word. Secular people don't understand The Kingdom because they have to evolve spiritually to be able to do that, from the animal we are born to a god like, like Christ said: born again. Also don't try to apply kingdom rules to the secular, you will fail. You can live in one or another and you don't have the right to tell people how to live, it is their choice. Also you can't ride the fence, the splinters will get in your butt. Please don't attack me, I lost faith because of those Kingdom rules, I like democracy too. I only tried to make it clear that the secular world and The Kingdom of God are incompatible as dead and alive.
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Diane Baum
I completely lost you in your "rhetoric." Simply put: Jesus came to teach us the ways that were expected of us. He held women in high esteem, note his treatment of the woman about to be stoned, the woman at the well as well as His women friends, Mary and Martha, Mary of Magdala as well as His own Mother--at a time, I may remind you, that women were considered "less than".. He admonished us to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." He came and announced Himself as The New Covenant, the Old Covenant (Old Testament way of doing things) had passed away. (The reason He was found "guilty" by the Pharisees is that they did NOT believe He was the Messiah, they referred to Him as Blasphemer.) Now...put all that together and tell me that If Jesus Christ Himself were here and saw me being abused, that He would slap my husband on the back and say, "well done?" Hardly! I am sure that all of the times I was being abused by my then husband, He also cried with me. It was the Church, the Catholic Church, who stood beside my husband and told ME that I had to basically deal with it! For anyone to think otherwise really needs to go back to the simple words of Jesus: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As I stated before in a previous comment, I hardly think ANYONE wakes up and says to themselves, "wow, today is a good day to get my ass kicked!"
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Rev. Diane, so sorry for your horrible abuse at the hands of your husband and the Roman Catholic Church. So many men in that church fear the power of us women and use their "scriptures" as a justification for viewing and treating women as animals to be ruled and abused. I hope you have recovered from it all.
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Judge
Diane, nobody encourages violence in Christianity, but forgiveness, if you want to be forgiven too. Seems to me from what you saying that your husband was mentally ill or possessed, and instead of getting him medical help or exorcism, you abandoned him. Jesus would not had say "well done", but would helped him if he was sick or demon possessed. God is his judge, he'll answer for what he did, but you took an oath to help him no matter what. Getting justice for him brings justice for what you did wrong also.You need a lot of repentance and good deeds to balance that bad Karma you got on yourself by breaking that oath. An Eastern religion would say that you and the husband did some bad things in a previous life and you pay for it in this one. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” is the golden rule in Buddhism too. If you were sick, would you like your husband abandon you? It is sad anyway when things like this happen. I lived many of this things and more. I leaned the hard way, My female dog I named Karma LOL. Wish you all the best
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Diane Baum
He was in VietNam, he had PTSD. He was also an alcoholic. Put those together and you have a recipe from hell. I did NOT know about his alcoholism as he was a "dry drunk," meaning he didn't drink for 30 years. I had only known him for 25. When he began drinking again after 30 years, it made his abuse much worse. Abandon him? I ENCOURAGED him to get help, to go to the VA, to talk to other vets at VFW posts, I did everything for him. His response? "I don't need to change, YOU DO!" He said I was the crazy one. I gave him everything and my ALL. As I said before, if God has something to say, we'll meet in the hereafter. I am sure he also had words with my ex. he will also have words with my now-husband, who treats me like a Princess. He will tell him how he was handpicked to heal me after the abuse I had endured. Forgive? I did that at my ex-husband's funeral. In fact, as he lay dying, I went to see him, to offer forgiveness and apologies. You know what he did? He told me to "f*ck off" and that he never wanted to see me again. Oh yes, I was there....HE was the one who chose to be a crappy person until the day he died.
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Diane Baum
a clarification: by "dry drunk" he never went to AA, he never followed any steps, her just quit drinking but didn't know how to handle the frustrations and urges. I didn't know this until a few years ago, that many who just quit cold turkey (no pun) do have these issues.
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Judge
I'm sorry Diane, and glad that you found a good life. I know perfectly what you talking about, I am a veteran ex- alcoholic with PTSD too. We went to war to make you and others a better life by sacrificing ours. Some of us came back damaged and people didn't know what to do with us. We are zombies that live in hell, and most of you abandon us, like cats. A dog will never abandon you. I gave my ex material to read about how to help and deal with me and she didn't. She first hooked up with another man and kicked me out like a piece of furniture when I couldn't work anymore.That's when she cursed herself. 4 years later she was dead in a car accident together with the boyfriend. I never accepted divorce, marriage oath is sacred, it is "till death takes us apart". Karma sometimes takes a little time, but works every time. I have many people that did wrongs to me; death or tragedies happened to them or loved ones. I cured myself with Gods help and a loving wife, LOVE conquers all. Now I drink socially, responsibility and rarely, I don't even like it. Love and getting evolved spiritually did it, being truly born again, enlightened, out of Plato's cave. Hearing God is crucial...prayer is a dialog, we all hear His voice, just we can't recognize it, it is the small voice that we call conscience. You just have to train to tune into it by meditation and other methods. Now my second wife has dementia and I take care of her, not abandon her in a home, I'm the dog...the marriage oath we take is sacred, "for better or for worse" we said, and if you break it you will pay sooner or later, one way or another. Each case is different, circumstances are different, that's why I say, "God is Judge", Daniel in Hebrew, like Pastor Patterson here. What we call abuse and the level of it is relative to time and location, law and culture. Human justice is blind, evidence can be fabricated, lies are told. Divine law is above human law. We all pay for something we did in this life or maybe another. Seems to me that you paid your bad Karma already and you are off the hook so far, God looks at the balance and Yeshua can tip that in your favor, that's why He died, to ransom us.
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The Doctor
Dan you sir need further help from a proper counselor,because effectively mocking your first wifes tragic death by implying she brought it upon herself by leaving you is contemptable and a sure sign you suffer from some level of psychotic thinking.
You are also still living a lie. You did not go to nam to make the world a better place. You went because you bought into propaganda and and that john wayne era of what it is to be a man.
You didnt sacrifice for others. Not one bit. You made that choice to go kill people in their country. You where the invader, you where the bad guy in the karmic sense of things.
Contempt for your first wife is clear in your words as is your attempt to minimize abuse by saying its relative to time and era.
It really is not. No matter the time or place evil is evil, and a man laying hands on a woman or vice versa for any reason short of defending oneself or another that is unable to defend themselves is evil.
Since you like to mention Karma. In Karmic theory killing is absolutely and always wrong. Every life you took is a massive black hole in your soul. There is nothing one can do to ever atone enough or balance out taking a life such as you did in nam.
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Frank and Stein
You are right, Judge, church and state rules are incompatible, that's why church and state are separated. The church is polluted with secular ideas and drift away from the rules of The Bible. Pastor Patterson is right by Kingdom rules, Christianity is forgiveness, that's how you step up from justice to Grace, it say "turn the other cheek", "let God judge" and women can't divorce. God gave us those rules, but the secular think they are smarter than God and know better. Christ saved us, but He said "I will vomit you out of my mouth", meaning that you can loose your salvation if you keep sinning. He will be the judge of those in so called abusive relationships. There are two sides of every story and only He knows all the details. Satan is testing us every day and we fail miserably all the time, but hopefully we get better and achieve theosis. Prayer is a dialog, and if you don't hear God yet, work on it and He will talk to you, and tell you right from wrong.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
....."Most domestic “abuse” is started by the woman verbally abusing the men and not recognizing authority. The tongue is their weapon, man’s weapon is the fist." Seriously? This sounds so much like some of the men I treated at a tribal domestic violence program here in AZ who would say,... ": If she kept her mouth shut, I wouldn't have punched her." "Our tongue is our weapon"? I would ask the same men if when they got mad at their bosses if they would punch them for things they didn't like and they would emphatically say no because they knew they would lose their jobs. The only reasons that men abuse women is because they can and they often times get away with it. But they are cowards. At least the Pascua Yaqui Tribe of AZ has a zero tolerance, for abuse of any kind with serious legal consequences. They enforced each perpetrator to attend an 18 month outpatient group treatment program. I ran the program in the Phoenix area. The work they had to do was very difficult and at times they would cry like little babies. The USAF was very lax in their requirements. The bible is misogynistic and anyone who follows those horrible ideologies and "rules" are no better than members of ISIS..
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Judge
Catherine, obviously you don't live in The Kingdom, so you could not possibly understand. Only the born again, spiritually evolved from the animal can. it comes down to your prison of believes and the definition of "abuse". Not long time ago "abuse" was considered beating your wife with a stick thicker than your thumb. The rule of the thumb. Many societies still practice that, as well as harems, slavery under muslim rule and others. Christian life is all a test so you choose between justice and forgiveness, you choose justice you will get justice for your sins, you choose forgiveness and you will step into Grace and see Haven. God left us rules, and if you reject them you will support the consequences of your actions, you have free will, He is not forcing you to believe, just show you the way to life. If you think you are better and smarter than God, you will find the truth soon, when you die.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
@Dan, I live on this beautiful place called Mother Earth, am a member of the human family, and I understand men like you very well. You use your so called holy book to justify the most heinous crimes committed by men against women. The god force I believe is not the same as your evil, jealous, vengeful, violent, misogynistic one that you hold dear. The rules you refer are man-made to favor men only from centuries ago. Your holy book is a collection of stories written by and for men and are reflections of the cultural beliefs of the time in the Middle East. Men who subscribe to the ideology you refer are members of ISIS today and can hardly be identified as "spiritually evolved" as you claim. Not much has changed in that part of the world since christianity and islam took hold. I learned the loving way of life from my mother, grandmother, elders and my tribe. "Sin" ? You know what is sinful?? The desecration and rape of Mother Earth.
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Judge
Catherine, you know nothing about me, and like most women, presume and imagine that you do. I didn't present here any of my personal views. Your accusations are totally fabricated in your mind. True Christianity is nothing like ISIS, but the opposite, everybody knows this but you. Seems to me that you are trolling here, not serious, and if you are, you must be out of your mind, drunk, on drugs or just hate men for some reason. Please get help.
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The Doctor
Sorry you must endure these mad hateful rants from a clearly imbalanced mind of one claiming to be the new resurrection.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
T'Keren Valmaz thank you for your kind words. Just FYI, I am not enduring anything, in fact I just brush off nastiness from the misogynists who are here. They have no value to humanity, offer nothing to promote love and peace and are basically angry, pathetic, low life men who are fearful of assertive, strong women they cannot dominate and control. Of course, they forget they were carried by their mothers who gave them their first breath. They are not the majority here. I enjoy reading your posts.
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Cris Bessette
" Men are violent, God made them that way, and they turn violent when provoked." Um.... no.... Only immoral violent men do such things. I'm a man. 47 years old. I've never raised my hand against ANYONE in my entire life, man or woman, because I am a DECENT HUMAN BEING.
You need some consoling if you can't control your temper. Don't use your iron age beliefs as excuses for your lack of human decency and self control.
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Judge
Cris, I was not talking about me, but about men all over the world in general. You must be an exemption to the rule, missing testosterone from eating too much junk food and brainwashed by feminists. Man's animal nature is violent, that is a fact. Tell this to your military that defends your country, to your police, football players, hockey players, boxers, bickers etc....tell them they are indecent, insult them in their face...see the response...text me from the hospital
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Cris Bessette
Animals are violent, true, human beings are animals, but we have slowly evolved minds and empathy and better societies. Those hockey players, football players would have been murdurous gladiators if they had lived in the distant past. They are playing out watered down instinctual memories of their animalistic past. Now they wear helmets and pads and play with balls instead of swords.
No, a decent modern man has no need for violence except for self-protection and protection of others, this is the police, soldiers that PREVENT violence.
We don't need barbaric old religious rules. We don't stone people to death anymore. We don't kill women for being raped (like the Bible prescribes), we lock up the bastard that raped her.
If a man hurts a woman, he goes to jail. That's modern Karma for you.-
Judge
Cris, The Bible prescribes forgiveness, read it, don't spread ignorance and that hate that overtakes you. What you say is in the Quran. You think police will protect you before somebody kicks your ass? How you will protect a love one, call 911? They may be dead by the time police come. I trained to a black belt just in case, because I'm a real man. Your woman will leave you the moment you don't protect her. Women don't keep cowards. Also you got it all wrong, I don't defend violent and criminal men, I just offer the explanation for violent behavior. I'm just saying that men's human nature is to be violent and if you go against human nature, you will fail...that's why communism failed, it went against human nature (greed). Prisons are full of violent men, and nobody can change human nature, especially the american culture, creating the biggest violence of all, the wars. More male babies will be born and they all have the genes of our hunter/warrior ancestors. Even you Cris, have a reptilian brain and a mammalian brain, look it up, know yourself. Every man has a limit, and if you push him over that limit and he is bigger than you, you will be attacked, the animal brain takes over and he will hurt you, this is a medical fact. And Cris, if you don't want religion, why are you a minister? because you are part of one as a minister...or you are just trolling here?
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Cris Bessette
The Bible, Quran can both be read to say pretty much anything you want them to say. I've read both. The Bible says "Forgiveness" one place, then another "An eye for an eye". Deuteronomy clearly lays out that women should be stoned to death if they are raped (but don't scream loud enough) if they do scream then they are given the lesser punishment of being FORCED to MARRY their attacker! No modern court of justice would support such evil.
Once again, I think the only use for violence is defensive- self preservation, and of loved ones and innocents. I don't "push people over the limit", so there is never any need for violence. If someone commits violence against me, I will protect myself. There is nothing cowardly in refusing to commit violence against others that have done me no wrong. "Human nature" isn't carved in stone. I pointed out we no longer have gladiators, we replaced them with men in padded uniforms playing with balls: man becomes less violent. Millions died in WWI and WWII, and every major war since those have had less and less death and destruction. Now deaths are tallied in the thousands, hundreds, dozens. Wars are started by rulers, and faught mostly by the young who have no hate for those they are put against. They are just there to do the job some politicans in cushy offices sent them to do. Send the Politicians to war instead of the young men and women, and the wars would stop.
Who said I am a minister? I was directed to this site through the story about the so called "minister" that encourages women to let men abuse them. Of course his old dusty brain repeats what he was indoctrinated with, that's to be expected. Young believers reject such things as cultural mores of a distant past that no longer have relevance.
Lastly, not "trolling" I'm speaking in defense of women, which I think is a decent and honorable thing to do.
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Judge
OK Cris, now I understand, you are not a minister and came here with your hate for religion for some reason. That we call trolling. Your secular society brainwashed you to stay in the stage of the animal you were born so they can keep you ignorant and a slave. The New Testament has authority over the old, Christ changed all that. You should read it and understand it before you talk to ministers. You barking to the wrong trees, the ministers are spiritual people, working toward becoming God like, Christ like, Budha like and others, your negative and ignorant lies have no place here, this is a church, a place were we unify all human religions. Start with John 1:1, you will find the Love and forgiveness and maybe you will heal all that hurt that people inflicted on you.
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Cris Bessette
If any religion or interpretation of a religion supports telling a woman that she should allow a man to beat her, then it is IMMORAL. PERIOD. That is the only reason I am here. I am glad to see only a tiny handful of people like you are standing up for such backwardness, the rest of the commenters Maybe you are the one that needs to ask someone for forgiveness.
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Judge
Cris, nobody here is supporting beatings, you must be out of your mind, on drugs, or mentally ill. I see that from your statements. I never compared myself to Christ or Buddha, you presume and imagine things that are not there. Please get help and stop fighting.
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Carol W Waldenburg
What kind of sham ridiculous theological training have you had? Women start abuse by verbally abusing the men and not recognizing authority??!?!?!?! Do you carry a club around and drag your knuckles on the ground?!?!?!?
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Elijah
None of the speakers here talk about forgiveness. Someone said America is not Theocracy and am surprised to read that because all my life I read that America is God's own country. The Pastor delivered all he knows about husbands and wives relationship. It is a pity we have not heard from the abuser of his wife what prompted him for the charges. That's why we have leaders in the Church they should be sent to the man perhaps God may save his soul. Telling the woman to endure the hardship and not file for divorce is the best advice a pastor should give his member and if this doesn't go well with others they should not ask for his head or send him parking. The pronouncement that God is the Judge should have settled the case. There is divorce, remarriage, single mother separated family thereby endangering the life of the children. Let us all forgive the said Pastor in the light of his understanding the scriptures. Thank you.
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Diane Baum
Telling the woman to endure the hardship and not file for divorce is the best advice a pastor should give his member and if this doesn’t go well with others they should not ask for his head or send him packing.
Really? You truly believe this? I am sorry, but as a minister myself, as well as a woman who endured abuse, if you told me this to my face I probably would have sent you to the moon myself! Endure the hardships.....my own children were the ones who begged me BEGGED me to leave him. How do you think they felt, listening to their own MOTHER being abused verbally and physically? My own daughter said she could hear me crying at night, and here I thought I had hidden it so well. Endure the hardship? YOU live that way as I did for 25 years and tell me that you are just having the best time of your life! Because it is hell on earth. And Satan, I am sure, was having his own joy.
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Frank and Stein
Diane, I'm sorry that you had to go trough that, but there is a procedure in The Bible about those types of situations, submit it to the pastor and the elders in your church, they know what to do. Nobody forced you to become a Christian, and if you did, you should follow the rules God left us. Christian life is not easy, Satan is testing us every day and we fail miserably most of the time. It is a life of suffering, as Christ suffered we have to suffer and you will have your reward in eternity. We have to pick up and carry our own cross. The Bible say only the man can divorce the woman and only for infidelity, so by divorce you doomed his soul and yours in adultery. Satan preyed on your maternal instinct and you listen to your children, who probably were not living in the kingdom of God. You dropped your cross, Satan won again.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
P. James....OMG, How dare you blame the victim...shame, shame, shame! The blame belongs squarely on the perpetrator, nor the victims of his abuse. She and her children should suffer until they die? She "dropped her cross"??? That is sick justification for a crime. Love Jesus much?
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Frank and Stein
Catherine, I don't blame the victim, we only know one side of the story here,you can't judge, I'm just telling the christian rules, nobody forced her into the church, she should follow the rules if she got into it. It is no way out, and yes The Bible say carry your cross, nobody guaranties happiness in this life, but the opposite. Read it. Plus a woman can't teach a man, like you trying here. Sorry, I didn't make the rules.
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Cris Bessette
"Pastor' it's time for you to find a new job, because you clearly have no business teaching people about morality if you support violence against women.
Ladies, if a man beats you, go to the POLICE.
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Frank and Stein
Cris, I don't support violence of any kind, I support forgiveness, witch will bring you into Grace, with justice you will only get justice for what you did wrong, it is the law of so called Karma
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The Doctor
PJ that is not how Karmic Field Theory Works so stop mentioning Karma. You clearly no nothing about that ancient eastern metaphysical outlook.
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Judge
T'Keren, you can't tell people what to do here. There are many theories in the East, here we are referring to The Universal Law of Karma, not a theory, but a law of the Universe. Obviously you never heard of the Christian Grace. Christ preached "do to others what you would like them do to you" witch is the Golden rule in Buddhism too, forgiveness, tithing, abstinence from sin, love, righteousness and more for the reason that what you put out will come back to you, cause and effect....that's what we call Karma here, not the many eastern theories.
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The Doctor
PJ you right here are the new poster child for the kind of disgusting perversion of humanity that christianity has given the world.
You dare to attack this woman, say she failed, say her children did the work of the devil etc. Let me be frank if you said this to a woman like Diane in front of me it would be the last words you spoke because Id tear the tongue from your mouth and stitch your lips shut and be doing a service for all mankind in the process.
The bible is an archaic text. We here at the ULC are not champions of any specific faith, and your clear bible thumping BS will lead to nothing but endless conflict with those ministers here that actually live up to the Idea behind the ULC.
And my man Lucifer is not a catholic priest he doesnt mess with kids.
Yours truly The Lord of Demonkind;)
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Raymond dye
diane sounds more like they being taught by cults to believe woman and kids should endure abuse, way he is talking its similar to the case jeff warren a cult leader who abused woman and kids. To many use religion to benefit there sick, personal gain just like politicians use the law for there sick personal gain. True religion is respecting one other and embrace life and to help man kind.
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Cris Bessette
Endure the hardships! So if he beats her to death the next time? What then? " Oh well, the pastor did the best he could"
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Judge
You speak like that Cris, because your western society sees death as a bad thing. A Hindu or others will tell you that death is part of life and you live another, according to what you did in this one, or you can't change your fate, it runs like a movie, or she went to Heaven, where is way better than this world created by ungodly westerners that destroyed the planet. How do you know you have the right answer about death and not others? See, I actually know, because I was dead and now I'm alive
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Carol W Waldenburg
Let's not not forget for a minute, however, that forgiveness does not exonerate the perpetrator from guilt, it does not mean that they should not pay for their misdeed or crime, it is not a free pass, and the victim does not have to have anything to do with them again.
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Apostle Dr. C.N. Turrell
For any Preacher no matter what religion should be removed. The Denomination needs too remove him, and his church needs to freeze him out and not pay him. To say women should do nothing when they are abused like this is wrong. I think he should be held accountable for these actions, meaning charged with helping to allow women too go through this. Sad that he is like that.
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Bill Fox
Christians are commanded to obey the law of the country, state, city in which they live. If battery is against the law, it applies to everyone, regardless of religious beliefs.
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Frank and Stein
It is true, but for justice you will get also justice for the wrongs you did, it is the law they call Karma. For forgiveness you will get Grace, and you will be forgiven too, think of that before you seek human justice or revenge, it is a choice.
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Carol W Waldenburg
A Truth that has not been looked at here!
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Oh Mo
America is not a theocracy, so God doesn't get to judge. However, we do have laws against wife-beating, and those criminals that do it must be judged by juries of their peers and human judges. And then thrown in prison so they can be someone else's b*tch to find out what it's like.
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Raymond dye
your right oh mo people's safety is more important then what a bible says due to its been edited like our laws so much no one really knows what was actually said , if you look there are more than 40 different versions in English each edited to meet there agendas , and there is only one true bible that dont include abuse of woman and messing with kids.
See no matter where you pray at god can hear you , and they say he is a fair god so means he would not contradict his 10 commandments he set.
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Kevin Magovney
He is part of the problem. Not the solution. Blessed sre the weak.
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chiefhall
I have to wonder if he would have had the same response if it had been him getting his eyes blackened....
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Brother Lalji
I have heard many things in these post. All of it speaks to punishment, none of it speaks to, love or the responciblity of the community as large like the family's. No one seemed to menssion what the bothers, fathers or other males in the family are suppose to do. I have three sisters, all of them were rape. Me while they were children. Me and my brothers were so protective of them they had to warn their boy friends what would happen to them if they ever put their hands on them. Punishments does work, but after any of my sisters boy friends met me or any of my brothers, they knew they any abuse of our sisters would be met with swift retribution. We should never forget that the first duty of any man in a relationship is protection. If anyone disagrees with this, test it. See what will happen if you are in a relationshi with any women any where in the world and in times of danger you do not protect them, watch what their reaction will be. Even if they love you they will not stay with you. A women needd to know that the men in their lives will protect them. If yopu don't, you are not a real man!
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Minister KIM
Paige Patterson is an embarrassment for any so called "man of god". There is NO love or compassion in this man. He is not speaking of or for God or any proper application of Bible principles. He is speaking his own dogma. Abuse must be reported and delt with by the human criminal Justice System. Abuse IS A CRIME. Mankind's laws deal with this matter. God deals with spiritual things. This man needs to face both man AND God for his obvious misguided behavior and sins against God. Facts are facts both human life and Religious presumption of righteousness......
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Frank and Stein
He is speaking forgiveness, that's what Christ did. You choose justice Kim, you will get justice for yourself also for what you did. You choose to forgive, you step up in Grace and your wrongs will be forgiven also. Totally biblical, read it minister Kim. Patterson is sticking to the word of God that say a woman can't divorce a man. Human law is flawed, justice is blind, evidence is fabricated all the time, lies are told and false witness came forth. Many innocent people were jailed for many years, lives destroyed by people who talk like you. Nobody is innocent in an abusive relationship. That's why he is saying "Let God be the judge". Karma works better than anything else, sooner or later we all pay for the wrongs we did.
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The Doctor
here you again say nobody is innocent in an abusive relationship. Are you for real? Do you think when a drunk father beats and rapes his children they are not innocent victims?
You have a serious case of blame the victim mentality and its disgusting in the extreme. Tell me is that how you justify abuse you deal out? By telling yourself the woman or child you beat is just as bad as you are while you batter and break their fragile bones?
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The Doctor
It frankly doesnt matter if the wife was spending her day sucking off every guy on the block. Tells the husband he is scum, whatever that still does not justify physical abuse.
You say human law is flawed but you seem to think a book written by men is actually divine mandate with no flaws that is a sure sign of insanity in my book. Please consider seeking professional therapy.
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Carol W Waldenburg
I am going to pray in earnest for the people who receive any sort of pastoring from you or your kind James.
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M A
Dear Women, Start forming your own churches. YOU DO NOT NEED MALE TYRANNY DOCTRINE TO WORSHIP THE ETERNAL AND SACRED. GATHER UNDER A TREE. DONE.
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Frank and Stein
That is hate speech, discrimination against men, you may be charged
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sheryl A clyde
No it is not. Hate speech because they want to be seperate? I disagree. Many cultures separate men and women anyway so what is the difference?
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Frank and Stein
Women are saying for a long time that men only organizations are discriminating against women. So the other way is not? I know governments that had to be 50% women just because of that
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sheryl A clyde
Well you are free to try to sue but churches are different and not subject to the same rules.
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Jim
As a person who grew up in an abusive house before the parent got the divorce, I can tell you that I have heard people say oh stick it out for the kids etc. Let me tell you if there is abuse it will continue. Get out and get out now. A man who is insecure enough to hit a woman under almost any circumstances will continue to do it. Yes there is always two sides to a story but that is no excuse for a man to beat his wife. I watched my mother do some pretty mean things to my father but it still did not give him the right to abuse her. He could have walked away. For a religious person a preacher, pastor whatever to condone this type of behaver is not in my opinion what god would want. I can tell you that once my parents were divorced they became the best of friends. My mother and stepdad even toke care of my father when he was dying of cancer. My parents loved each other they just could not live together.
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Frank and Stein
So you trying to impose your system of believes on others. Other societies say they are right and the woman should be beaten, broken like a horse, in order for things to work, because the woman is evil and that way you domesticate her. There is an Italian play that showed that. Sharia law is even worse. So how do you know you are right and not them? Your people not just abuse women and children all over the world, but kill them also. Looks that you are hypocrites with double standards. If your women want to be equal with men, they should fight also like a man, and not bitch and wine about it and play the victim, or they will never be equal. In Israel women serve and fight together with the men, all of them, mandatory. Ask Wonder Woman. Send your "equal" women to war...I can picture that ...hahaha
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sheryl A clyde
I hate to tell you this but women do serve in the armed forces in the USA. I do not know how it works in other countries but they do here.
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Frank and Stein
I knew somebody gonna say this here. I said ALL WOMEN, MANDATORY, like in Israel. Get the point
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sheryl A clyde
Give it time and we will get it there.
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sheryl A clyde
I get that some more primitive societies think women are evil and think they must be broken but that doesn't make their belief system right. Men are just as evil because it says Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Women in the usa do things for their husbands without having to be beaten and the men who do beat their wives go to jail. It is not legal to beat your wife here. Eve had to be tricked to eat the apple so the sin was not hers it was adams because he ate it willingly knowing that what he did was wrong. Paul supports this when he says in romans 5:12-21 For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. So if you are here claiming to be a christian Frank and Stein I suggest you start reading your bible more.
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Frank and Stein
The primitive societies worked for thousands of years, yours is a disaster. There is no apple, it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, a metaphor. The sin was Eve's disobedience, she listened to Satan instead of God. Nowhere say Adam knowingly ate the fruit, but Eve gave him. Eve turned evil the moment she ate, and wanted to corrupt Adam too. He said the truth to God when asked: "woman gave me"...she was in charge of food, as women are, so he was tricked by evil Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. This is the narrative that majority of scholars accept, not your biased, twisted story. Woman was the link from Satan to man, the weakling that corrupted mankind, by not discerning right from wrong and disobeying God. The story reflects woman nature, having an ear for evil, disobedient and the feeding of corruption to others, just look at the oldest trade in the world, prostitution.
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sheryl A clyde
Oh brother So women lead men into evil and poor men are unable to resist huh? You make a mockery of what the bible says. It is obvious you never have picked it up or read it.
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sheryl A clyde
Wow weak you must be then if a woman misleads you so easily especially since in the new testament paul says God will provide a way out of temptation.
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Judge
Here you are right Sheryl, man are weak when comes to women, they think with the dick, ask Freud. Behind every man is a woman and he tries to please her. That's why the bible say that if you take a wife you will have many troubles, and better not marry, like I'm having trouble with you here understanding Look at all the rapes in Europe, they imported all those muslim animals from Africa and Middle East and now they cover it up.
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The Doctor
Actually the oldest profession is murder, the 2nd being a thief. And no so called primitive society lasted millennia. History shows one truth, every society, every culture changes over time. Even the ancient egyptians and chinese had such regular shifts in their governments that one cant even really call it one same country or culture. Just as in modern times, as it expanded and had leaders change the society itself changed often to the point it was a completely new thing with little resemblance to the previous.
You also seem awefully hung up on Eve. What about Lillith? You know the actual first woman. That was actually equal to Adam,
She was the real wonder woman, and thus is labeled as the mother of demonkind. Yep the first woman who was the first woman to defy man and god was literally demonized for it.
Any man that thinks a woman exists to submit and serve them needs to jump in a volcanoe
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Judge
So T'Kren, you are saying that Cain and his future brothers didn't screw his mother, Eve, or sisters, but a race of demon women and had children with them. Actually Torah says that that Cain took a wife from some population that came from nowhere. That means a big chunk of population today, his line, are the descendants of the father of murder and a demon woman. Makes perfect sense. That's why the orthodox monks beat the demons out of people and it works lol Nothing in Torah about Lilith, she appears in Jewish mythology, in the Babylonian Talmud
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Judge
T'Keren, all true Christians exist to submit and serve, like Christ did and preach, you are saying what the Romans said when they killed Christians for 3 hundred years. Christ said the servant is the greatest, and those who lay down their life for the others. The Romans and people here don't understand that. So all 2 billions of us should jump in a volcano? Where I'm from that is hate speech, you may be tracked down and charged by people who think like you. That would be instant Karma
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Carol W Waldenburg
There is a saying - It is better to Come from an abusive home, than to Live in an abusive home. Children learn terrible things about how men and women communicate and treat one another when living in an abusive home never mind what it does to their self-esteem and the other emotional damaging effects.
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Wendy
So he did apologize...sort of, but not really. Did he do it because he changed his mind? Not a chance. He did it to keep his powerful positions. He is the scum that scum scrapes off its shoes.
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Frank and Stein
Read again, he didn't apologize, he doubled down on his conviction, because he is right. According to The Bible, a woman can't divorce a man. Nobody forced her to become a Christian or to marry. The Pastor sticks to the word of God and not to your corrupt, polluted society, run by greed and vanity. It is tragic, but is no way out, they took that oath "till death", plus nobody is innocent in an abusive relationship.
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The Doctor
And you call yourself a pastor James? That is some disgusting tripe you are spewing. Really when someone is being abused they are as guilty as their abuser?
How do you know she wasnt forced to be christian? most are as kids forced to go to church and are forced into that be a good little sheep mindset.
And fortunately it matters not what some archaic text says. In any civilized and educated society divorce is a viable legal option. Anyone that says otherwise can go feel free to put a plunger in their toilet and then take a seat.
Anyone that abuses another, be it mentally or physically has forfeited the privilege to be called human and can go in a cage with a nice big silver back gorilla so they can find out how it feels to be physically impotent against your abuser.
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Judge
Hey, no insults, where I'm from tripe makes the best soup lol. He didn't say the abuser is as guilty as the abused, he said nobody is Innocent. When two man fight nobody is innocent ether, but that is labeled "fight", not abuse. When two people fight, the more injured is labeled the victim and the winner of the fight the "abuser". I know a woman that hit herself and blaim it on the man because she was screwing a police officer. He told her how to do it and nail the poor guy. Obviously, you know nothing about Christianity, adults are not forced into it or kept by force, that is Islam. The good little sheep is a better human that the secular gang member with no God. And it matter what some archaic text says, it doesn't matter for you, because you are ignorant, but it matters for the person who belongs to that religion. About animals, we all are animals, including you, check evolution. What you are doing here if you have no religion? we are all ministers here.
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The Doctor
“We all know that any emotional bias — irrespective of truth or falsity — can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value…. If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.”
H.P. Lovecraft
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Norma Battes
Judge May 19, 2018 at 9:28 am " Hey, no insults,... " Said the three fingers pointing back.
" When two people fight, the more injured is labeled the victim and the winner of the fight the “abuser”. " Your interpretation of civil law is interesting.
" Obviously, you know nothing about Christianity,..." Do you?
" ...adults are not forced into it or kept by force, that is Islam. " Jim Jones and David Koresh - to name two notables within my memory. Christianity had an interesting time with "heretics" in medieval Europe.
" ...it doesn’t matter for you, because you are ignorant,... " Hey, no insults.
"we are all ministers here. " Golly, you are a minister?
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James
To many sub-topics (in the replies) to get them all in here... Till death do we apart. <-- How clear can that be? (Control your phaneron as you read). Lets recap as biblical books are meant to be fathomed. To me, that implies any form of Mentally, Spiritually, Emotionally or Physically death. God IS love. if the "LOVE" is dead, gone, absent, missing, etc. It's time to part. Biblical teaching also indicates. Thou shall not kill. As everything in biblical books indicate in the Mentally, Spiritually, Emotionally and Physically (MSEP) sense of killing. Its time to part. Incompatible energy should NOT remain as unioned. As for the "He’s just being biblical”. Thats all well & good, etymologically speaking he may be. Ones Intent, drive, desire & EGOtistical motives is what counts here. Not one using religion as an excuse to be as one already may be. IE; ISIS. AND yes, the laws (lord) shall pass judgment on him. That is 110% correct. Karma can be a bitch or a gift at the end of the day (judged or not). EXIT THAT TOXIC RELATIONSHIP... No reason the abused needs to stick around to watch the karma on judgment day. Staying in any relationship where the energy is incompatible is a form of ~MSEP suicide. First Kings, Leviticus 19:28, Mark 5:2-5 & copious other passages touch on variations of self murder / mutilations / abuse.Not sure what karma drew them as a couple, But, choice reins here, make it & locate tranquility.
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The Doctor
Have to say like your style. You seem to have grabbed some good parts and blended a tastier form of spiritual sustenance.
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Suzi Oraha
God says in Proverbs : 14:29 whoever is patient has great understanding, but one who is quick- tempered displays folly. Also in Proverbs 22;24-25 . God says make no friendship with an angry man, and with a furious man do not go , lest , you learn his ways and set a snare for your soul. Suzie Oraha
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Judge
James, LOVE means different things in other languages. You don't LOVE food, you actually like food. There are many types of love in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, the languages of The Bible. Hebrew and Greek words for “love” have various shades and intensities of meaning. uv (אהב, 'āhēbh, אהבה, 'ahăbhāh, noun; φιλέω, philéō, ἀγαπάω, agapáō, verb; ἀγάπη, agápē, noun Agapás, denotes the highest, most perfect kind of love (Latin, diligere), implying a clear determination of will and judgment, and belonging particularly to the sphere of Divine revelation Philṓ, which means the natural human affection, with its strong feeling, or sentiment, and is never used in Scripture language to designate man's love to God. Sometimes it even means charity. Here comes the confusion, in English is just one word, LOVE, and when you see it in The Bible you have to look it up to see what it means.
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flugo
As a pastor, I've counseled numerous domestic abuse situations.
1. God hates divorce as mentioned in the book of Malachi. 2. The Biblical basis for divorce is adultery as mentioned in the New Testament. 3. I have counseled for separation to get away from the abusive situation. This gives the chance for legal protection and other measures as a respite for the abused. 4. Yes, doing things God's way, and engaging in confident prayer IS effective.-
James
1, GOD (LOVE) hates? Is that even possible? 2, As mentioned in may passages, death (used as a verb) applies equally to ALL aspects of existence. IE: Mentally, Spiritually, Emotionally and Physically. If the love, respect etc, etc is dead. Cherry picking only "physical" to drive a New Test passage point is unbalanced per biblical intent. 3, Dangerous or repeated happenings I council 100% to vacate the situation. Wish to work on relations? Stabilize the situation & do it at a distance. Need a peace bond or the like. Then DO IT. But, do seek professional help in the various contexts needed. 4, Doing things the way of GOD (LOVE) must be by employed by all parties involved. No meeting of the minds, minimal or no common / compatible energy? Move on.
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Michael Mangold
Proverbs 6:16-19 New International Version (NIV) 16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
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John Owens
I love that passage. The TRUE 7 deadly sins.
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Carol W Waldenburg
Malachi??!?!? We are under God's saving Grace now, not the law!
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John Owens
Yeah. Read the wording of the New Covenant. Then read it again. Then think about it. You can find it beginning in Jeremiah 31:31.
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John Owens
Also, whatever God hated in Moses' time, He still hates. He doesn't change.
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sheryl A clyde
You are both right and wrong. The Torah does not Change. Yes we are under grace but we are expected to act like we are freed from sin not continue in it. All those passages all those laws were teaching us how to show love to others by NOT hurting them. It really doesn't say much for the human race that we have to be taught like infants not to hit each other.
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John Owens
If they cared at all about the woman, I think the pastor and a few deacons should go and have a come-to-Jesus talk with the abuser. There is no scriptural injunction for a man to hit his wife, and none for her to continue to endure it. There is also no injunction to prevent concerned individuals from having a sincere conversation with the abuser about the consequences of such behavior.
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Donna
John, I think you hit the nail on the head. It is the elder/deacon’s responsibility to deal with unrepentant sin among its body. If the unrepentant fails to heed their admonition, the elder/deacon may excommunicate the individual, which is why church leaders are held to a higher standard in judgement. In the case of domestic abuse, should the abused stay while this work is taking place? Absolutely not. Let him/her pray and be counseled from a safe distance. If the abuser, over time, comes to understand and repent from his/her sin, then a reconciliation, again over time, is possible. We enter into a covenant with God when we take our marriage vows, and while those vows should NEVER be entered into lightly, abuse from either party should never be tolerated nor condoned by the church.
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Mary Crescent
Donna you are absolutely right. We are all Gods children and if there is abuse in the home the abused should always be protected 1st. Any minister that feels the abused person should stay needs to step down. Nowhere in the bible does it say husbands are allowed to beat there wives.
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someoneelsehasmyusername
According to scripture, women belong to their men. In fact, all old world religions subjugate women. You can pretty much do what you want to your "property".
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John Owens
I'm fairly well versed in Torah for a non-Hebrew. I am unfamiliar with any scriptures in Torah labeling a woman as her husband's property. I know the attitude existed, but I'm not sure about the scripture.
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Ronald chiefLonghairharris
It has been my understanding that women are helpers to the man not property, God gave man work to do and a woman to help him do his work not own her. Now for those who think they own a woman the bible did not give you property he owns everything.If a man finds a wife he finds a good thing, not he finds property.
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James
There are 2 sides to every story, situation that are developed, and revenge. That's why God tells us not to judge, and then tells us that authorities will be judged much more harshly than the common man. I don't pretend to defend not condone any domestic issues. I only mean to point out the extreme likelihood of a mistake being made when judging people
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James
2 sides ? LOL.. I've discovered 3 sides to all stories. His, Hers & the Truth. Phaneron on all sides.
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Judge
Exactly, evidence can be fabricated or left out, mistakes are made, false witnesses, etc., human justice is blind, many innocent people had their life destroyed.
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Diane Baum
I endured beatings for 25 years in my first marriage. Twenty five years. I told not one, but TWO parish priests about it. My husband was a church-going member also. The priests also advised, "praying about it." Yes they "counseled" him but in effect, they were telling him to be Biblical. Oh yes, he treated me as property, saying he "owned me." I had enough. After I finally filed charges against him and told him I was divorcing him, a priest said that I was "responsible for his soul" and that by divorcing him, I was setting him up for adultery. One, he had cheated on me five years before I filed for divorce and two, after much prayer, I was the one who finally told God, "this is between you & I. I'll see you when I die and we'll settle it then!" Ha! Afraid of God? NO! I was afraid of the so called church who wanted me to stay in an abusive situation till "death do you part." Scary to think that women today are still being treated like cattle. We all need to look after each other and treat one another as we want to be treated. Do you know of anyone who woke up this morning, thinking, "well, today is a fine day to get my ass kicked, wouldn't you say?"
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William Waugh
I'm glad you got in early Diane! Everyone here needs to see this for what it is. Layer after layer of , I got your back, christian male!
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James
Pray about it. Gr8 advice... I concur. AND, As you pray / contemplate from a safe distance, in a stable environment. (send the other party the bill for the Metaphysical & meta-Physician bills). Some ppl just wake up with arise whipping in mind to express their own unhappiness. As Paul Thorn put it (assUme w/ discretion & wisdom)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPM1ifkOQ9s
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Diane, you are so brave in my opinion, to disclose your experiences here and describe how you were treated by religious men of your faith. This excusing of abusive men is probably related to the European patriarchal ideology where women are viewed as chattel with no rights. In the bible, women are portrayed as either virgins, manipulators or whores from what I have read ...the belief that women are beneath men, lesser than, to be controlled by them. Thank goodness you escaped.
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Carol W Waldenburg
Diane, I am so glad that you are out of that my sister. :)
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Michael Mangold
It is about time that we apply the Old Testament prophets' demands for justice to women, too. Violence is never ok. I repeat, violence is never ok and to have a church leader condone it is violent itself. Keep in mind that the prophets condemned the political and religious atrocities of the day, which is a great template for us.
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Frank and Stein
"Violence is never ok. I repeat, violence is never ok" said the man who's nation abuse, torture and kill women and children all over the world
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Norma Battes
Frank and Stein May 18, 2018 at 4:02 pm " ...said the man... "
From someone that would condemn an entire nation by believing, "Then you Gary and your people should go to prison... " Hate and hypocrisy abounds
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Waya5
Anyone claiming to represent and speak the word of the Creator and then tells an abused woman to basically just shut up and take it needs to step down. Patterson also needs to be charged as an accessory to battery, and face punishment for something so vile.
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Judge
Waya, did you hear about freedom of speech? So you are the one to trow the first stone, because you are without sin, right? Revenge is your answer? Nobody learned yet that you can’t stop violence with more violence or punishment? It only leads to more violence. Try to read about Christ, Ghandi or South Africa, how they stopped the satanic trap, the circle of violence, by forgiving.
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Shane Lowrey
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Sound familiar?
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Judge
That is the old law, Shane, Christ changed it, read The New Testament
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Gary Hynous
God will judge him in time. For now we need to judge him as the misguided person he is. I hope his congregation abandons him. We need to send all women or children abusers to prison and let the general population deal with them.
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Chaplin Allen David Alexander
I agree Gary, aren't we all God's children? Don't we all deserve to be treated as such? For that is as much as what he saying, 'You are only a woman, you deserve to be beaten'. This is what happens when certain people put their personal spin on God's word. It is perjured with their beliefs, not the way God intended.
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Gary Hynous
Thanks, Allen I feel that it is our responsibility to try to understand God's will and what he would have us do in certain situations rather than be so bold and perhaps misguided as to tell people what their interpretation of God's will should be and how they should think. We all need guidance at times but e need to listen critically to what we are being told and then decide for ourselves.
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David Williams
Well said sir. Totally agree.
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Gary Hynous
Oops! Didn't mean to apply a gender to God. Sorry folks!
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tims3gs
God must be a man ! A woman would have cleaned on the 7th day not rested...lol
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Norma Battes
tims3gs May 16, 2018 at 2:43 pm " A woman would have cleaned... "
A woman would clean and a guy wouldn't. Interesting perspective. I take your humor however if I were that woman I'd be at the spa getting a massage.
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Carol W Waldenburg
Unfortunately the idea of a woman's body belonging to her husband is alive and well in many more fundamentalist churches. I am a pastoral counselor and have had a few women as clients who have literally been in hiding while escaping their homes and husbands after being horribly physically and often sexually abused. The women that I speak of all went to their pastors for counseling before they came to me and they were admonished for going to the pastor and not keeping their dirty laundry at home with their husband to whom they belonged. Amazingly, and as great witnesses to me these women stayed grounded in their faith in GOD, and were able to separate Religion from their relationships with God.
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Marc H McCann
Profoundly sad commentary, Carol.
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Melody
This is sad & disturbing!
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Karen Petsche
Don’t let us forget the true meaning of what this passage or this nesssge wasting meant to be It was not just that the woman’s bogey belonged to the husband and that was it No more went with it The husband was to care for and to live and protect this body as Jesus loved the church and if that doednt ring with anyone then the Church was Jesus The husband was to lay down his life body and soul to love and take care of his wife. To provide for - a living to treat this body of his wife’s as if it were his - but better. God first then his wife. They would be as one. Therefore there would be no problem. There would be respect and love on both parties. If the wife did not feel good or feel like having sex her husband understands. They are each other’s best friends. No one ever has to discuss or say your body belongs to me! The husband would love his wife as Jesus loves the church and it goes on to try to describe a bit. Why is it people only remember the ownership of the body of the woman ? This was meant to describe not just love but respect and how a man should treat a woman and how a woman should treat a man and respect each other. That’s my take on it
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Suzi Oraha
yes i agree diffidently right , and i will say same thing exactly like the way u did.
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Terry
Absolutely correct Gary
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Cyril
Domestic abuse against women and children is horrible. But don't forget about the domestic abuse suffered by men. Men are abused and are too embarrassed to report it. My best friend was accused of domestic abuse after he threw his wife over a couch. The information that she had attempted to stab him and she broke his nose as he tried to wrestle the knife from her before he threw her over the back of the couch and onto the cushions were conveniently left out of her story. Fortunately, the police saw his two black eyes and broken nose while there wasn't a mark on her and decided to get the whole story before making a decision. Most men are not that lucky.
Men are abused by women. If you don't consider a woman a threat to a man then you obviously don't think much of women. The women who abuse should be held just as accountable as men.
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Judge
Amen
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Norma Battes
Cyril May 16, 2018 at 12:38 pm " If you don’t consider a woman a threat to a man then you obviously don’t think much of women. "
Whoa, this is really interesting. Lemme get this - you either feel empowered over a woman because you don't respect her. Or, she is a threat. To your, ...masculinity? Independence? Gender?
Hmmm, are men a threat to you also. Or don't you respect them either?
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Lisa
He's not "misguided" he's downdright cruel. Speaking as a battered woman, when I went to my high Priest and Prietess they gave me comfort and guidence. They ensured my safety and were constantly on the look out when I found the courage to leave my aggressor.
As a high Prietess I get my women to safety as soon possible. I give them my strength to lean on because I remember trying to leave my husband. As clergy it is our job to protect these women. Counsil them to give them strength. And to get them to a safe place. So many women return to their homes where the battering gets worse. And done wind up dead.
Unfortunately, the laws don't always protect us. Police don't always protect us. I tried to kill myself to get away from my husband, twice. I was given 3 days by the police on one occasion. And another time we were at the ER after a beating and the police brought in a man who hurt his hand when he intervened in a beat down of a young woman he didn't even know. The young man paced around the room ranting about how wrong it was. My husband visibly shrank in his chair.
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Frank and Stein
Then you Gary and your people should go to prison for all the women and children your nation not just abused, but killed, blew up and tortured all over the world. Hypocrites
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Gary Hynous
Don't really know what your point is. By the way, the oldest profession is not murder, it's prostitution. Check your facts.
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Dragon Priest
God will judge this man eventually as he has been working for the red guy all along. Baptists... Are evil.
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Judge
Exactlly, God will judge him, but Pablo, first take the big stick out of your eye...look how all the Chilean catholic bishops just resigned and why. We are here for peace between religions, not instigate against each other.
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Norma Battes
Judge May 19, 2018 at 10:59 am " We are here for peace between religions,... "
Good luck with that. I get your point however I also read the posts.
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Feed him his last dinner of mushrooms. When a man beats a women it shows what he is not, a man.