Quick, hide your tarot cards! If you live in the wrong area, that is.
A Pennsylvania tarot reader is speaking out after she was warned by the local chief of police that she could be jailed under an obscure 19th century witchcraft law if she continues to perform readings for clients.
Beck Lawrence of Hanover, Pennsylvania, claims the Hanover Police Chief said he may be compelled to arrest her for telling people's fortunes.
Although no one’s been prosecuted under the law since 1935, it has apparently never been wiped from the books – meaning it could technically still apply. Violators reportedly face up to a year in prison if convicted.
They say that everything old is new again… but who knew they were talking about arresting and prosecuting witches?
This is Tarot-ble
Here's how it went down, according to reports.
When the cops stopped by the 26-year-old Lawrence’s shop earlier this month, it wasn’t to pick up some spooky season decorations for the police headquarters.
Police Chief Chad Martin swung by the new witchcraft-themed store, which opened in January, to inform shop owner Lawrence that he may be forced to act if he receives any complaints about the tarot-reading services the shop provides.
“He informed me basically he is not here to arrest me or press charges,” explained Lawrence. “However, if he ever gets a report from anyone, he will be back on my doorstep.”
Lawrence took to TikTok to tell their side of the story in a video that has been viewed more than one million times.
Martin cited an archaic 19th-century law, Title 18, Section 7104, which says it is a crime “for gain or lucre, to tell fortunes or predict future events, by cards, tokens, the inspection of the head or hands of any person, or by the age of anyone, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies, or in any other manner.”
The statute supposedly also forbids love spells, potions, and necromancy.
Letter of the Law?
Extremely outdated laws are not uncommon in America, and many cities and towns still have 18th or 19th-century laws on the books which go unenforced.
But despite the Hanover law’s obviously outdated language, and the fact that no one has been prosecuted under it in nearly a century, apparently the local authorities still feel obligated to enforce it.
Police Chief Chad E. Martin said in a Facebook post on the Hanover PD’s Facebook page that if Hanover residents don’t like the law, they should take it up with state legislators. “If one possesses the sentiment that the statute… does not protect anyone from harm and is not needed,” he wrote, “then I would suggest that their proper recourse is to contact their legislators and voice their opinion.”
Responding to the statement, critics argued that the decision amounts to clear religious discrimination against Wiccan and Pagans faiths, and questioned why the chief of police was using his valuable time to visit a witchcraft shop to tell them he may enforce an archaic law in the first place.
“I think Hanover has more important things to worry about,” wrote one commenter.
Others expressed dismay that tarot reading and other expressions of mysticism could be considered illegal.
"I'm completely shocked that in this day and age people are still in fear of Tarot and Astrology or anything that is mystical. I was even more shocked that it's illegal in PA. I think it's completely insane and archaic," wrote another person.
Echoes of a Dark Past
Beyond the controversial decision to enforce a defunct centuries-old statute, the story also conjures up images of a grim period of the country's history.
In the late 1600s in Massachusetts, over 150 people – most of them young to middle-age women – were accused of practicing witchcraft in a period of hysteria that later became known as the Salem Witch Trials.
Many were put on trial in what were effectively kangaroo courts. When the dust settled, twenty people had been executed for the crime of witchcraft. According to some reports, as many as 13 more died while awaiting trial.
It wasn't until 2021 that the last victim of the Salem Witch Trials was finally exonerated and had her name fully cleared.
Back to the tarot reading...
What is your reaction? Do laws against fortune-telling violate religious freedom? Do the police have an obligation to enforce all legal statutes on the books, no matter how old, or is there room for common sense in the equation?
254 comments
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Lionheart
Religions also charge money, either by passing the plate around the congregation with the imposing psychologically religious threat of a Hell hanging over everyone’s head if you don't contribute, or a tithe that some faiths use to pay for their mansions, planes, and lavish lifestyle. All religions love to have their prophesies of the future, which is no different to a Witch, telling you your future and then charging you money.
As an FYI, I used to be a Medium…………. Now, as I have got older, I am a Large, almost an Extra Large 🤭
🦁❤️
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Joy
OK first - LOLOLOL!!!! Love your joke!!
Second, yes. Money is at the root of all, and the exchange of money for a soothsayer is no different than giving to the larger pot at a religious institution. I like that analogy.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've been doing a lot of fasting, and am trying to get down from a xx large to an x large, but have never been a medium, even when I was reading palms.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
I appreciate your expertise but you and I both know well your statement is misleading. It ought to be more accurate.
I have never heard a preacher, in actual facts, threat anyone over going to hell if they do not tithe or give offerings. On the other hand I have heard not a few promise prosperity of they do.
Now, here we can expand on personal opinions.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Besides the pun that “This is Tarot-ble” it is also ridiculous. I’m sure the preacher’s wife would be more than happy to file a complaint against our mystic, mademoiselle, but if Chief Marin actually arrested her, there would be hell to pay. If one religion is allowed, then all religion is allowed including Wicca.
This is some uptight Christian abuse of power, and the police chief passing his conversation with the woman as educational is equally ridiculous. I have to wonder what was going on inside this man’s head. I don’t know if he was elected or hired, but the Mayor of this little town needs to step up and fire him if it was the latter. I bet there would be a hefty lawsuit if she was arrested. This kind of thing is going to go too far.
If a person wants to pay to have their fortune told, then it’s between them and the person telling the future. Personally, I’ll wait for the movie version of my life to see what’s going to happen next. LOL!
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Dawn
Agree-and maybe a religious discrimination is the lawsuit we want to see-all the way to the corrupt crazy christian supreme court.
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Keith D
Definite religious discrimination in a law that was illegal when it was written. It's also a violation of the Establishment Clause (this is what made and makes it illegal) that forbids the establishing of any religion--and by implication, religious tenets--in law.
Some might argue that the First Amendment was directed at limiting Congress, which was true until the Supreme Court 'incorporated' it into 14th Amendment's protections, thus widening the effect from only Congress to the entire legal structure of the United States.
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George Thomas Duvall Burroughs
Depends, I feel it is entertainment comparble to acts with magicians having ESP to tell what object a person has given his assistant, an evangelist performing a medical cure outside of scientific proof, and viewing professional wrestling as anything other than a performance, maybe a good one. Fortune telling, tarot card readings, et cetera, is entertainment for those who desire to partake.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ditto any religious beliefs. Tarot is a bit like prayer but you don’t ask for stuff. Instead you get to peek at Mr. Magic’s schedule.
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Amber Fry
It can also be more like a therapy session depending on who is doing the reading and how. A truly skilled reader can help a client work through what they need to be doing without judging or dictating.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Well, if ‘the cards’ are supplying info on the problems/barriers/goals in the person’s life it’s a waste of time. If the cards are used to get the person talking AND the ‘reader’ has training, then I guess so.
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Pastor George Day
Amber Fry,
That is precisely why it should be avoided: fake promises! It gives NOT what it claims to provide.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yes, I agree. We’re talking about religion, right? Oops, the tarot cards. Well, as I said, those too. Maybe ban churches too? Revelations talks about the future, ban talking about that? Can the witches get around that by claiming freedom of religion? Are they pushing to teach it in schools yet?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
Let's wait and see :-)
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Pastor George Day
George Thomas Duvall Burroughs,
I substantially disagree n the nature of the occult, but you do make a very valid point when it comes to main stream channels of good practice.
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Theresa C. Marquess
It must have taken the Hanover Police Chief a while to research such an archaic law. Archaic is the operative. When the law was written attitudes were different. Do we still want to prosecute people for the old witchcraft laws that remain on the books? This is 2023. I can't believe that anyone would even have subjected Ms Lawrence to such a threat. Good luck to you, Ms Lawrence!
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Dawn
It’s possible that some crazy christian with a vendetta engaged him…
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Pastor George Day
Theresa C. Marquess,
I used to work in mental health. You'd be surprised how many end up in mental institution or seriously mess up their lives as a result of dabbling with the occult.
No, my lady... not at all! Witchcraft is still detrimental to the common good, no matter what the law says!
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David Buck
Any police chief who has nothing better to do than this, is paid too much. Sure it is up to the legislative branch to change the law, but some common sense in the enforcement branch would not go amiss. Anybody who lays a complaint under this section should themselves be charged with wasting police time.
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Pastor George Day
David Buck,
… until they cast a spell on you... then you'd want them to do something about it.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Lions, and tigers and witches! Oh, my!
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
Bingo!
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William McCauley
Interesting enough, before today's Christianity was changed by the religious elites. Tarot card reading was sacred and holy. It was used as White magic with prayer to our heavenly father and mother. Speaking of mother she was also snuffed out when the early church fathers redid Christianity from Esoteric Christianity. Follow the Gnostic teachings and you find out things that were hidden from you.
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Pastor George Day
William McCauley,
This is untrue and misleading at best. Most gnostic teachings are still available, like the gospel of Mary Magdala or the gospel of Jude. One gnostic group has survived to our present days (the Mandaeans AKA Sy John Christians) and other have reorganised (like Christian Science and Scientology).
Do your homework... nothing new under the sun.
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Meghan Marie Dwyer
I’m a seer, clairvoyant by birth. It runs in my family. I don’t do it for my profession and when people come to me for help, I do what I can if it’s a noble cause and I feel the call. I have a rock crystal I read for myself and it guides me in the right direction. I don’t do much with Tarot and I think that’s all it is is a little guidance from the other side. It’s not really “fortune telling” because calling events too far out, free will could screw it up. It’s usually for 3 mo out or so. There were seers and prophets in most every culture. Why it’s so strange now a days really sticks in my craw. I have the ability to help people so when I it’s needed for the person I’ll do it. That’s my two cents. :) Being sorta spooky by birth isn’t a crime :)
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Pastor George Day
William McCauley,
Being so by birth is something that you have to submit to God. If this is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is an innate quality that could be used at the service of dark powers. Check out the story of Amalek in the Bible.
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Pastor George Day
Sorry, that was meant for Meghan Marie Dwyer, not William McCauley!
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Merlin
Police Chief violated her 1st Amendment Rights. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
You know, it never shocks me when individuals become SO offended due to someone practicing witchcraft, or practicing pagan beliefs, that they arrest them, or use violence against them. Or, in my case, fires them from their jobs. Over the years, because I practice the craft and follow pagan traditions, I have been fired from 3 jobs. Two it was subtle about the reasoning, one was blatant.
The fourth job I lost, I quit because first my supervisor gave me a written warning for it, and then began to harass me about it, leaving pamphlets for various churches on my desk. I was shuffling my tarot cards during my lunch break in the cafeteria because I was trying to stretch out my hands which hurt from doing so much typing, when one of my coworkers came up to ask me about them. Of course I answered their questions honestly, I refuse to lie about it, and then lunch was over so we went back to work. Normal interaction? Apparently not.
A third party had overheard us and ran to whine to my supervisor that there's a witch that works here and I got a written warning. Which at the call center was one step above termination. After over a month of harassment, I quit. Refusing to work in a toxic environment like that.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The busybody Gestapo are everywhere, just looking for a chance to put a feather in their cap by 'exposing' any diversity or difference.
It's always been that way, religious or not.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, I think quitting was the best option. Of course you might go the lawsuit/potential windfall path.
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk,
Interesting! So much big deal for a lady who prays before a meeting, not so long ago, sarked mayhem!
What males you so special that it's K for you to bring your witchcraft to the work place?
I personally would have issues with that because of my beliefs, though I do not bring religion to the workplace. I do not impose my views on other, why should I be made to feel uncomfortable by your own so bluntly shoved at us?
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
I just followed her story on tiktok and as a victim/survivor of someone trying to do the same to me.. as I am also a resident of Pennsylvania... I do not charge money for my gifts nor do I seek people out. As a criminal justice graduate.. I learned my laws to protect myself. But if a donation is offered.. I use it for supplies to get more items to effectively do my job as a Minister. We cannot condemn because the word "witch" means healer. And the Bible; though some don't want to admit... Is a grimoir do to the fact King James was an alchemist who used a witch to change the Bible... After he wrote the book of demonology. It's one of the top ten grimoirs in the world b/c he got the scripture from ancient Egyptian text. We that are ordained must effectively teach truth as it is not written for some to progress but to digress back into a time were people were killed in the name of a book. I welcome community comments. And even now.. someone stole my honorary doctorate in metaphysical studies trying to accuse. Let us come together in love and truth.
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William J Lewis
Sounds like the chief and his cronies all believe in occult and witchcraft as the root of all evil. Some would call that, "the fear of the Bogeyman".
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Snort!! And perhaps face repercussions. What a load of crap they Are "fighting" against."
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Pastor George Day
William J Lewis,
What if the Bogeyman were real? After all, you believe in witchcraft, do you not?
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Barbara Harris
I have read Tarot for over 50 years. I have never once told a person it was fortune telling. Because 50 years ago those laws were readily enforced. But as I have read I realized that what is coming through in the cards is the energy that is going on around the person at the time. Then free will kicks in. They have the tools with free will to take what ever is interpreted from the cards and do with as they please. I have always charged for my readings. Sometimes for those close to me I ask for chocolate - always a nice finish to a reading is sharing the chocolate.
It is sad that this officer of the law felt he had to intimidate this woman. And that was exactly what he was doing. If she can find an attorney to take her case she should sue the area where this law is at.
I am a Pagan and a hereditary witch. Up until a few years ago I never once mentioned it at any place I worked out. Then a few years ago I came out of the broom closet. There have been some who have created waves but most have accepted who and what I am. But I live in an area that is more progressive in their view points and for that I am lucky.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The future is never certain. We do have free will - within the confines of our circumstance, which includes the inertia of the events around us. Our perceptions and understanding can be a large part of that inertia. Tarot is an ingenious alternate way of connecting to those energies and bringing them to light.
The literal definition of spirit is "The animating essence of something". So, from that perspective it appears Tarot does convey communication from spirit - or at least that's one way of looking at it.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
This professor at Stanford has an interesting argument that Free Will does not exist. Some of his class lectures (not on free will) are on YouTube and I enjoy them.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2023-10-17/stanford-scientist-robert-sapolskys-decades-of-study-led-him-to-conclude-we-dont-have-free-will-determined-book?utm_medium=email&utm_source=pocket_hits&utm_campaign=POCKET_HITS-EN-DAILY-RECS-2023_10_19&sponsored=0&position=2&category=what_else_were_reading&scheduled_corpus_item_id=2b5455e5-4d76-46ed-a126-d4ad44696b7e&url=https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2023-10-17/stanford-scientist-robert-sapolskys-decades-of-study-led-him-to-conclude-we-dont-have-free-will-determined-book
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
For a person who doesn't believe in free will, he sure has strong opinions.
But he might be right. Even Buddha decided that life was "suffering" and created a regimen designed to end the "cycle of rebirth". What a wet blanket.
I suppose it takes all kinds. ;)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Have to agree with Buddha, humans suffer because they want stuff, either physical things or things to happen, not happen, or not to have happened.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Buddha was a sincere God seeker. He even prophesied that 500 years from his death a greater prophet than him would come (AKA Yeshua).
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Source, please. Sounds like one of hundreds(??j of the sects that have spring up over the years.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
I'm a scholar. My knowledge comes from my studies and my exams. I'm not wasting time seeking links. You are welcome to do your google search :-)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Scholars provide sources for such claims. L
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
Take it or leave it, I don't have the time to search links for you. You are free to do your search.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Comment has been removed.
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Catherine
@Dr. Zerpersande
The polemic within exercises free will to to disagree :) Broken record... we can only know what we think we know now.
I think anyone who claims to have a definitive understanding of the philosophical and scientific is immediately suspect.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
I have to admit I found the honesty of this atheist scientist compelling. Yet, one thing our great Reformer, Luther, would scold him for is the failure to recognise the bondage of the will struggling to get free. This is precisely what our Twelve Step program, adapted from Alcoholics Anonymous, is all about: freeing the will.
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Catherine
@Pastor George Day
If God makes no mistakes, and he created us in his image, and God exercises free well, why should humans not do so?
Again I say men who wrote the bible did so to suit themselves, not the God they pretend to represent.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
D your own study on Martin Luther and the bondage of the will :-)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The purpose of AA is to help people stop drinking. It may have helped me YEARS earlier except the one I attended was like going into a church. Religion was pushed hard. Don’t believe in a ‘higher power/god’ then ‘fake it till you make it’. Which is to say submit to brainwashing.
I followed the first 3 steps, plus the book Rational Recovery. Over 11 years since I drank. But even the first 3 steps I didn’t use them as intended. I viewed it as having a problem with a car.
Step 1- Finally realized that although I had tried to fix the problem in many ways that I couldn’t do it myself.
Step 2 - Accepted that I was going to have to take the car to a mechanic experienced with this sort of problem.
Step 3 - Made the commitment that having come to the mechanic. Was going to listen and accept the mechanics advice.
The group here in Japan made no real effort to change my blunt profession of atheism. Met one guy that apparently came very infrequently and he suggested 5he book Rational Recovery.
AA has a very low success rate. A quick Google confirmed my recollection of ‘about 10%’ with a snippet that addiction specialists have done studies that show a 8-12% success rate. Not knocking it, bc I got some real help there, mainly by talking to others that had been sober for years.
Me? I go yearly. Both to see my old sponsor whom I’m still friends with (but who fired me bc I said that I wasn’t reading the Blue Book due to the incessant religious nonsense to the point that it made me physically uncomfortable) and to show others that you CAN remain sober without regularly attending meetings. And every year I tell them…
The thing about remaining sober is not at all about stopping drinking. Any drunk stops all the time.may be bc they pass out. Or run out of money. Or the bars close. Or recognize they do need some sleep. But they stop all the time. The key is NOT STARTING again. It may sound silly but once I accepted that once I started I wouldn’t be able to stop, I just didn’t start again. And as Rational Recovery states, it isn’t this one day at a time stuff, you get it in your head that this is forever.
So AA isn’t about ‘freeing the will’. It’s a rational decision, based on past experiences, that says if you drink you can’t stop. Even AA says a person won’t stop until they ‘hit rock bottom’. If that’s true, well, they have the ‘choice’ between dying or stopping. If the ‘choose’ death then their cognitive abilities are so low they are doing the collective gene pool a favor with their ‘decision’.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
It seems to me you get a high in contesting everything. I mean, just look at the length of your post to reiterate the same thing over and over.
AA saves lives. It has great popularity for a reason, whatever your statistics say.
There is no religion, only spiritual principles. A religion has a belief system, but not so for AA.
The Steps have been adapted to all problems precisely BECAUSE one can't stop a habit without help due to the bondage of the will.
But to understand that, you need theology, which it seems to me you don't have much of.
AA is a practical solution Theology is a science of study
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
How long have you been going to AA?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
I ended up in A&E twice over a drug overdose. I was referred to NA, but I identify more with AA - probably because of its much more marked spiritual nature. It has been since 2003. AA has taught me the value of universalism, which is why I joined this denomination - besides wanting to be ordained. I now see from my own experience that everyone, if sincere in heart, can find God in their path. It doesn't change my belief system though :-)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
AA has indeed saves lives. And I support it, with both my time and money. But…
It IS a religious organization. Of the 12 steps 5 of the steps reference ‘God’ with an additional use of ‘Him’. The belief in god, and the masculine form identifies which one, makes it religious in nature.
It is not very effective. Any treatment with a 10% efficacy would be consider not very effective.
But I still support the program. It’s a good start. It has some good ideas. And I’m a regular attendee. Of course of members might not agree that once a year is ‘regular’.
How often do you go?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
As long as you say you are a member, no one can argue that. The beauty of AA, like ULC, is that there is no excommunication. I will disagree with you that it is not effective - while I can see the religious association, though it is not affiliated to any denomination, church, or religion.
I go once a week, but I also attend Nicotine Anonymous and the Courage Apostolate. The last one is a Twelve Step Christian program for homosexual persons living a chaste life.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The ‘homosexual conversion thing’? Whatever you want to do, bud.
If I said that AA is not effective then I misspoke. AA is largely ineffective as it’s success rate is around 10%. It has a very low success rate. I still go once a year, to let others know I’m alive and not drinking. That I am not drinking without attending meetings doesn’t have to be said but I make it clear. That I haven’t followed anything other than the first three steps and and those I relate to having a car problem and giving up fixing it yourself. That for me, it’s not about stopping drinking. That AA was responsible for me realizing that it’s NOT stopping, it’s about not starting. I don’t mention the importance of ‘Rational Recovery’ by Trimpey bc I don’t want to be responsible for anybody failing and also bc it will piss off some members to offer an alternative.
Fact: AA has an extremely limited efficacy. Opinion: The efficacy would increase by rewriting the program in a secular manner so as to keep non-religious people around for a longer period of time.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
1) Courage is about chastity. We are in no conversion therapy business. We have adapted the 12 eps of AA with permission and have or own 5 Goals. 2) We must go to two different organizations called AA. The only low success rate I have seen is in people not doing the Steps. I've been a member since 2003.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I get you. AA didn’t fail, the person fails. You’re prone to brainwashing. One guy in the group talks about how you aren’t sober if you don’t come to meetings and follow the program. White knuckling it. Brings it up frequently when I show up for a meeting. I came to AA and got started on a path while in AA that resulted in me not starting to drink any longer, i do NOT do it one day at a time, I did NOT do steps 4-12. Does AA want credit? People leave and start drinking again. They came to AA and they drink. And AA stands behind ‘Rarely have we seen a person that follows the steps fail.’ It’s a lot like praying to god to save a loved one, or to bring someone to Jesus or to grow a new foot. You didn’t pray right, it wasn’t god’s will. But it’s never “Well, damn! That didn’t work!”
Let’s leave it at this. About 90% of the people that come to AA to stop drinking leave AA still drinking. That’s an accurate statement. If 90% of the people that went to a dentist for dental pain left that dentist’s care still having dental pain what would be your opinion of that dentist??.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
This is purely a petty argument. As Jesus' brother says: faith without works is dead!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
And Brother John says that works with or w/o faith (delusional hokum) are still works.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
These are fallen angels. They roam around the earth and interact with human beings. From that giants are formed (like our political systems) and Nephilim are birthed. These are those who bear the mark of the beast: 666 = man/man/man=no God.
All those blinded by these false ideologies are very hard to pull back into the light. These are the modern-day Nephilim.
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Catherine
@Pastor George Day
Eventually, I think you will discover different understandings. Life's a journey, yes?
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
Indeed :-)
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Pastor George Day
Barbara Harris,
One day you will stand in front of judgment seat... if you call this lucky!!
I shall keep you in prayer :-)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You pray for both of us, I’ll think for both of us.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
It seems your thinking does get you far :-)
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Theresa Gull
So here we are in 2023…we are still fighting for our rights to our bodies; people are telling us who we can love; and hey, the persecution of witches!! Very nice. Stay classy, PA.
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Pastor George Day
Theresa Gull,
Get a reality check. You are not as old as the world.
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Michael Anthony LaRocca
It should NOT be illegal. This should be covered under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. A 19th Century law should be removed from their State laws.
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Pastor George Day
Michael Anthony LaRocca,
Is witchcraft a religion?
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Michael Burton
The Police Chief in Hanover PA obviously doesn't have much to do. The town has about 17,000 folks and a very low crime rate; lots of retirees there. One of the main attractions in town is the Fire Museum, opened in 2018. I wonder if the Police Chief is jealous of the Fire Fighters and is looking for something to make a name by?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
It makes me very glad that I do not live there. You know some person who may not like her for whatever reason will eventually file a complaint just to be a pain in the *** sob. This sheriff has no business in the profession. If one faith system is targeted then it opens the door for them all to become targets. I do not think the fame of religious discrimination is what the town wants. It could get messy very fast if he did ever try to enforce the outdated law. If anything the town should just abolish the law and elect a new sheriff.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
Check Romans 13! Respect the authority, abide by the law... do the right thing, no apology!
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Pastor George Day
Michael Burton,
He's simply doing his job, professionally.
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Pastor Jody S.
If this is the case, then he needs to arrest anyone flipping a coin. Same thing - you are calling on invisible beings to make a choice for you.
Lurk around the local High School footbal games, and then pounce on the evil referee....!
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Pastor George Day
Pastor Jody S.,
Where do you stand? Witchcraft is forbidden in the Bible!
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Daniel Gray
Oh please. There is still a law on the books that says that women cannot drive and a man must lead a horse in front of the women drivers so as not to scare the livestock. lets see them try and enforce that law. Oh and BTW, Penn is a Democrat run state so how anyone can claim that this has anything to do with the other side of the political fence is doing nothing but showing their ignorance and bias.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Okay, DG would you like to bet the the sheriff isn’t a person that considers himself to be a conservative, a GOP supporter, and Christian. If you could get the twit to be honest he would say that it ‘goes against the bible’.
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Daniel Gray
Ok prove it. I am waiting for you to prove your statement. Or are you finally going to just admit that this is YOUR OPINION and not based on any factual data?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Betting on an outcome such as this would be akin to betting on a horse race, there is no proof other than to make the bet and see the outcome.
Liberals are pretty much the type to let people do what they want. Play with Ouija boards, shake that 8-ball, get that abortion, no problem. Christians dislike those, and many other, things and they dislike them very often because their Goatherder’s Handbook either directly forbids them, their tight-assed interpretation just makes uncomfortable or it kills their erection and makes it difficult for them to have sex. This falls under that category and so it checks the conservative box. And also the Christian box.
So wager wise it’s an opinion but it is based on past experiences. Would you like to place an actual wager on the sheriff being a Christian, and a GOP supporter that voted for Trump?
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Daniel Gray
I knew that you wouldnt be able to do it and yet instead go off on a high wind rant. If you cant back up with proof of your claims, then you never should have made them to start with as all that does is show how silly you are.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Are you being obtuse or are simply so dense that you are unable to follow along? Pretending to be stupid results in one actually appearing to be so.
I made NO CLAIMS. What I did was to use an idiom that rhetorically invites conjecture on the outcome of an inquiry. However, if you wish to take it literally as an actual offer of a wager then such would be possible. I’ve already done a couple of searches and found information that make the results of a wager more likely to fall in my favor.
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Daniel Gray
And how much do you wish to bet and lose?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
Contain yourself... we have some ladies here! :-$
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You know that expression about not having any of a certain item to give? Your puritanical ban on referencing anything to do with sex is something that I, oh, already said how I feel.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
It's about good manners, which you may still learn a bit :-)
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
Thank goodness there's still a state with anti-witchcraft law in place! I bet it won't last long, sadly!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Freedom of believing in whatever stupidity you desire.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
Good job I don't believe in you then! BINGO!!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
See how that works for you. If you don’t believe in me then these posts you’re reading are just hallucinations.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
It's called freedom of speech :-)
BINGO!
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
Seems to me as the ULC bylaws and mission statement are being attacked right here by those... Who have not read. And I have more than one Bible.. the words have be added to and taking away from. We have a problem as a spiritual community. Religious argument should not exist here.. and to add insult to injury.. we are fighting for the rights of women. Half of the worlds Faiths' separate women from learning , teaching and growing. But is not the medical field alchemy? Is not the symbols of double snakes on medical facilities not Egyptian. It is time for us to wake up to what America was truly founded upon. Slavery of the different.
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Joy
There is a very large movement in the divine feminine, or what ever words you chose to define it. Women are no longer being silenced. It's not just America that has issues with women. Since the beginning of time (and especially in Jesus' time, but that's another post...) women have been treated differently within "church" and within laws. But it's up to each of us to embrace our divine feminine. And I don't mean traditional male/female. But somehow I think you know that. Stay strong Evone. You are a mighty force!
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Pastor George Day
Joy,
With my high respect to your opinion - which I share in part - Yeshua is well known in the Gospel fr attributing high status to women. Sadly, Catholics, Orthodox, and others like Jehovah's Witnesses cannot see that. Mary Magdala had a high position as an apostle in France.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You might be of the opinion that this is a ‘spiritual community’ but others may view it quite differently.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
This is a Universalist church, which is factually a progressive branch of Protestantism that values individual search, with no dogmas. You can, of course, choose to see things differently. So, in a church statistic, your ULC membership would view you as Protestant; whereas individually you ca define yourself as you wish.
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
And revelations amongst other scriptures; teach about salt, crystals, stones, inscense, and prayer/chant/spell/incantations they have different definition but mean the same. How do we as a ministry combat the very thing that is written? We can't. It was written for us to follow the bread crumbs.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
By being faithful and not "religious". Churches and religion are manmade and therefore subject to human flaws and errors. By being spiritual we love His other children as He loves us do not judge or be afraid or threatened by any other beliefs. Also your Bible is flawed. It is not meant or should be taken literally.
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Pastor George Day
Lori-Ann Neeb,
The Bible is infallible, so yes, it ought to be taken literally - depending on the degree of law and its surrounding context. The Church is the New Temple established on Yeshua as its corner stone, so if Yehia is a man/God, then yes, the Church is manmade.
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Tabz
I've been following this poor girl for a while now. I feel for her. Things like this are the reason we left PA in 2014 and never looked back. My children were harassed in elementary school for not going to church. Religious pamphlets were handed out at school as reading assignments. We had people on our doorstep ON CHRISTMAS trying to get us to go to church with them. Why? Because we had a sign on the door that said they (religious organizations or solicitors) weren't welcome! Obviously we didn't mean THEM. We just meant the Jehovah Witnesses right? Surely not the Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals, and every other proselytizing sect. At one point it was alluded to that my child was born special needs because we were "godless" people. It was too much.
I hope she gets a good lawyer and takes this all the way to the State. Although, Pennsylvania is a commonwealth built on Quaker rules. She may not get that far. I wish her all the luck and strength in the world. She's going to need it.
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Pastor George Day
Tabz,
How about praying that she may find the light?
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
May the spirits of the realm be with you always. Freedom of religion is a right & wiccan is a religion. Walk softly & carry a big broomstick. Make if tarot- riffic! & may your business be spelled w success. Blest Be....... taroting is a ritual & wiccan can be cultivated to you style. Are you a registered voter? You could call or write your congressman or congresswoman in your district to add an adaptation to the 21 century spin on true religion & of discrimination that archic ancient law & let them know you have been harrassed just opening your business by the police.
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Pastor George Day
Carol M. Anaski-Figurski,
With all that's happening in the world right now, they'll just laugh and say: next, please!
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Martin L Stigleman
The wording of this law that this hateful, bullying sheriff is using to terrorize this woman and her place of business is a VERY slippery slope. The law specifies multiple ways that a person could use for fortune telling, but it finishes with the phrase, "or in any other manner.”. In order to charge this woman with the crime, he would first need to arrest EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS QUOTED THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS!!! ANY Christian who disagrees with this would first have to claim that the Book of Revelations, which is A PROPHECY OF THE END TIMES, ISNT REAL...and thus also claim that the Bible they follow is NOT TRUE.
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Pastor George Day
Martin L Stigleman,
First, why are you shouting? Is it the Pentecostal preacher syndrome in you?
Second, do a Google search between what is established belief and fortune telling.
You sound a bit confused.
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Nonnye Lynn Lucky
First,This sounds like a major Freedom of Speach violation which, in this case, does fall under the protection of the Constitutation. So, a little prediction of my own: Many lucrative lawsuits. Second, Tarot is not "fortune telling" and if fortune telling is illigal then the cop that showed up, most if not all preacher (of the old persuation) has charges coming their way, not to mention a load of medical doctors and parents. And if they really want to get into trouble then they could go after Witchs and Witches which comes under the protection of the Constituation too-Religious Freedom. Oh Yeah: I see many Lawyers having much work in the old Penn.
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Marquita Phyllis Greig
Every person that reads cards are very spiritual people. Jesus said not to judge, that's God job. How a person is with God is up to the individual and God. God's gift is everyone has their own talent.
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Pastor George Day
Marquita Phyllis Greig,
Yeshua also followed the Torah, and the Torah condemns magic.
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Charles Wesley Fuller
how about the law violates the first amendment,therefor,is null nd void.no need to take it up with the state legislators.as to the "police chief,"stop being a tyrant.
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Catherine
What seems clear about (a) Offense (previous post) is history repeating itself. An ages old effort by authorities to squash a practice that might expose ulterior motives or transgressions. Hmm... did Ms. Lawrence see that someone that someone else didn't want her to?
Much like William Lily, an astrologer to 17th century elites. He advised a friend of influences and potentials, Balstrode Whitlocke, who then advised Oliver Cromwell in such a way that Cromwell brought about his own demise. A seed was planted and grew into part of history.
That skilled ability along with controversy about the solar system being heliocentric or geocentric (doesn't matter because astrology works with either system), that is the crux of contention. A king decided the solar system would be a certain way. He was supported by those who preferred to live. That doesn't have to be the way things are.
Don't people in general, including authorities, naturally fear what might put them out of sorts?
I think those inclined toward inner growth are the most avid practitioners and supporters, and they harm no one.
Why would an authority want to banish a practice that has been politically or egotistically deemed nonsense? Ignorance? Guilt? Power play? Actual stupidity?
There is also a misnomer that tarot, astrology, numerology, runes... tell what will or won't occur. When I hear 'will or won't' or 'do or don't', I exchange those for 'may or might' and consider options. Some events may be more or less likely, though I think few are absolute without choice involved.
Some people want to be told and directed, which holds a life lesson they will eventually learn. Or not. Maybe that learning is part of an individual's life's journey.
Though influences and potentials exist, what a person receiving an interpretation chooses to do with information shared with them is practically random. A skilled practitioner who is very familiar with someone, might be able to decisively determine or steer which way a thing will go, however, how often is that likely to occur compared to the number of people a practitioner does not know well?
As for charging money for time and skill shared, how many professions are deemed a calling and those who follow their calling do not earn money for their efforts.
Somewhere I read that it is wrong to charge for a tarot reading. That a tarot reading should always be free. Who decided? Why?
While I agree spirituality is not about earning money, I think spirituality and earning money by showing others their potentials are not mutually exclusive. Organized religions do the same in their own way and likely do significant harm while not held accountable.
What is good for the goose...
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
I run a church and do it all for free.
I do offer services for a charge, but that's not intended for those I minister to.
https://theologyofthebody.webador.co.uk/
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Catherine
What seems clear about (a) Offense defined (previous post) is history repeating itself. An ages old effort by authorities to squash a practice that might expose ulterior motives or transgressions. Did Ms. Lawrence see someone that someone else didn't want her to?
Much like William Lily, an astrologer to 17th century elites. He advised a friend of influences and potentials, Balstrode Whitlocke, who then advised Oliver Cromwell in such a way that Cromwell brought about his own demise. A seed was planted that became history.
Amidst controversy about the solar system being heliocentric or geocentric, a king decided the solar system would be a certain way. That supported by those who preferred to live.
Don't people in general, including authorities, naturally fear what might put them at a disadvantage?
That skilled ability to recognize and interpret influences created by movement of objects above us, becomes the crux of contention because it can be used to expose wrongdoings by those able to exert power and escape accountability. Or give advantage to common folk who might become adversaries if only through undesired competition, or be less willing to follow blindly.
I think those inclined toward inner growth are the most avid and appropriate practitioners and participants. They harm no one, except accidentally when less skilled than a circumstance requires.
Why would an authority want to banish a practice that has been politically or egotistically deemed nonsense?
There is also a misnomer that tarot, astrology, numerology, runes... tell what will or won't occur. When I hear 'will or won't' or 'do or don't', I exchange those for 'may or might' to consider options. Some events may be more or less likely, though I think few will absolutely occur because a mind can be as volatile as easily as it might be manipulated.
A skilled practitioner who is very familiar with someone, might be able to decisively determine or steer which way a person or thing will go. Still, how often is that likely to occur compared to the number of people a practitioner does not know well?
Some people want to be told and directed, which holds a life lesson they will eventually learn. Or not. Maybe that learning, or lack of, is part of an individual's life's journey?
As for charging money for time, gift, or skill shared, how many professions are deemed a calling? Are those who adhere to their calling not supposed to be self-sufficient?
Why is it wrong to charge for a tarot reading? Who decided? Why?
While I agree spirituality is not about earning money, I think spirituality and earning money are not mutually exclusive. If so, organized religions and their mega churches would be shut down.
"What is good for the goose..."
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Mary Theresa Usrey
Sounds like targeting to me. That’s just my opinion
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P. Keith Benefiel
Isn't prophesy one of the "gifts of the spirit" mentioned in the bible? Prisons should be full of "evangelicals".
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Pastor George Day
P. Keith Benefiel,
Tarot reading isn't prophecy.
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Kathleen McLaughlin
Nothing surprises me anymore. What a waste of time for the police department
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Pastor George Day
Kathleen McLaughlin,
Not if they are enforcing the law!
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John M Houldin
The Free world has now become a police state and as troublsome as that sounds, it is here. As a Roman Catholic I find this article to be troublesome as our Free will that God granted us is being taken away. everyone has the right to practice their faith and belifes. Your belief in the right of free will, as well as your belief in the importance of allowing people to practice their faith, is a reflection of your values and principles. These values are often shaped by your personal beliefs and experiences, including your religious faith. It's important to respect and appreciate diverse viewpoints and engage in constructive dialogues to better understand the world and work towards positive change. We as citizens and religious leaders to stand together and defend our religious rights as God has given us at birth.
I will pray and continue to support all religions and to those who practice their faith and beliefs as God intended us to do. God Bless us all - Minister John
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Catherine
In deed < 3
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Pastor George Day
John M Houldin,
Just curious... If you are Roman Catholic, and I see you also call yourself a minister, how do you reconcile this with your church? I say that because they wouldn't view us as a church at all, nor recognise our ordinations.
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ServantOfJudgement
Many people don't realize the power they weld as a juror. A jury has the power to declare a law bad and strike it down. Could be a gamble though plus the judge won't like that sort of thing. Government doesn't like to let it's creators flex their muscles. God has the same trouble with his creation.
The cop shop will get sued, town will get sued. Whoever called it in just handed a bunch of money to the card reader. Heck, might have even been her that turned herself in. Free advertising, free money, sympathy business. Maybe, maybe not. Jussie Smollett syndrome is a pretty common occurrence nowadays.
Neighbors can be nosy and itchy too. City folk worry quite a bit about how their neighbor's lawn looks.
Shell fight and win, justice will prevail. Thank God for justice.
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Amber Fry
Not exactly. Jurors are there to decide if the law is broken or not. Legislators decide if a law is bad and revoke it. People on a whole can petition to have certain laws added, removed or adjusted but it's up to legislators to decide over all. SOME government members do have a problem with being questioned for sure. I won't speak for the gods.
We can only hope enough people get together and sue the police.It could turn into a media circus but we will have to wait and see how it plays out. We can only hope she does get justice. It's been terribly slow working of late.Perhaps to avoid negative attention they will try to resolve it more quickly and honestly.
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Pastor George Day
Amber Fry,
The Supreme Court has the authority to contest a law. It has happened in the past.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
Next thing she'll need an exorcist... oh wait, the law will have banned it!
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Clay Serenbetz
The D.A. would need to ask a Grand Jury to bring charges. Unless thus jurisdiction is extremely psychotic, I am of opinion the D.A. would not result in a successful outcome.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
A town of 17,000 might not have a Harvard Law D.A. Isn’t the D.A. an elected official? Depends on how the rest of the legal system is implemented in the town as to whether the citizens of Mayberry would vote out the D.A. The sheriff is sometimes elected and if that is true, well, that don’t have Andy as a sheriff.
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Colleen McAllister
First I need to admit that I used to be a fortune teller. Cards, tea leaves, dreams, I Ching, and Tarot Cards. I never charged money. The problem here is that she was charging money. She was not practicing her religion. She was simply trying to earn a living. Fortune telling is not a religion. 99% of it is simple observation of the subject and giving out very general predictions.
We need to follow the law, silly or not.
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Joy
Churches ask for money without giving anything in return. How is this any different?
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Pastor George Day
Joy,
It's called tithing. It's biblical. I tithe to ULC too. D you?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
So what if she charged money? There are no laws that a person cannot work their own business. Does that mean they should be arresting people who go and charge to mow lawns, or arresting people who charge to shovel snow?
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk,
Did you read the article? Fortune telling is outlawed in the land!
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ServantOfJudgement
Before I was a Christian, a girlfriend and I had our palms read. The lady told me I had a long life line. Told my girlfriend I was gonna break up with her. We got into a huge fight over it.
The palm reader was right, I did break up and I'm still alive.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
Demons don't know the future, but they can manipulate it.
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Nonnye Lynn Lucky
Hmmm, if you "used to be" then you never were.
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Pastor George Day
Nonnye Lynn Lucky,,
Who are you responding to?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Follow the law, silly or not? Nope, I was smoking when having an ounce meant you were taking chances with jail time. I won’t go into other examples. Kinda’ like the Wiccan thing of everything being okay as long as it isn’t harming others. That and don’t get caught. That’s the #1 objective.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC,
Witchcraft, by its very nature, harms others and oneself. Wanna be friends with the devil? You have no one to blame!
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Pastor George Day
Colleen McAllister,
Now you have repented and relinquished magic, right?
I am also a psychic but I know I am not to use it. It opens the door to the occult.
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Jon E Dare
Heavenly bodies? Well then that means God too! Lol
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Pastor George Day
Jon E Dare, God is one in three. Only one of them has a body.
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John Alex Paxson
I smell discrimination..
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Pastor George Day
John Alex Paxson,
I smell divine justice :-)
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
In addition, There are millions of modern witches that exist today so join the organization that support your cause. Get your business name & your name on every list of modern witches organizations like spell 8 & such. Its good PR & you have the backing of many.
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Pastor George Day
I agree with Carol M. Anaski-Figurski, but make sure you also have an exorcist to go to on your yellow pages, or eve better... set up your wing organisation!
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
Not only did they steal my honorary doctorate of metaphysical studies.. they stole my badges and card of credentials. So I'm stepping up for our community because this ministry was founded on equality..and that's what's under attack today by radical religious fanatics. Do your research. All those scriptures were taking from every way of life and dismissed because of the book(s) which were stolen from kemet. And Kemet was a washed down version of of the true way of Egyptian cultures. And there were many. "Slaves honor your masters".. is this not in the text?
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Sean Richard Camp
I know a book that I use tell our heavenly "fortune". Hope they arrest me if they charge her. Peace Love Dove, Rev Dr Noodles
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Govannon Thunorwulf
The few times I have seen laws similar to this, they are usually in reference to money being exchanged. I have seen people ask for donations rather than payment for their services. This allows them to continue with the fortune telling. The fact that it happened in PA is the reason I moved away from my home state to begin with. Where I grew up in PA is considered one of the most racists areas in the US.
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Pastor George Day
Govannon Thunorwulf,
What does racism have to do with forte telling?
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Lord Atepomarus
Let us leave politics out of these discussions! Tarot, just like an Oiuja board can both be bad if not done properly. To make them illegal, then tea leaves, candle wax & scrying should also be banned.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
HUH?? Just let them be, whether they appear to be truth or not to you.
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Pastor George Day
Lord Atepomarus,
They're always bad.
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Marie Grace Maroney
In your e-mail you (The Monastery) wrote the following sentence; Without being too meta should fortune telling be a crime. What does meta mean in this sentence? I’ve always taken it to be short for metaphysical, that and now of course Facebook has taken the term. Please tell me what meta means here. I’m not being sarcastic, I truly want to know. Thank you.
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Pastor George Day
Marie Grace Maroney,
When you say 'The Monastery,' who are you referring to? That is the name of this congregation.
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Florencio Guevara
This is part of the attempt by fanatical christians, muslims, jews, and others to start a Second Inquisition in the world...! This is why we HAVE to fight to keep up all of our rights....to assemble, to march, to pray outdoors, to serve the public, etc. HOWEVER, we need to be conscious of a festering boil within our ranks! As someone who has been an active member of the spiritual community for over 55 years, we must start weeding out our own charlatans, of which there are quite a few. We cannot cover the sun with our hand and pretend they aren't here. In fact, many of us know exactly who they are. One of the ways of spotting a charlatan is by cost. If she/he charges exhorbitant amounts for a reading, among other things, that n itself is a red light. Regardless of what path we are in, we need to start clamping down on these "Trojan horses" in our midst. If not, we risk aiding the dawn of another Dark Age...made even more evil by the use of technology as a vise!!!
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Amber Fry
And here we go again... this is only the beginning.
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Tom Herman
The law on the books is ridiculous and designed to promote a specific point of view. The excuse of protecting the gullible lacks merit in this day and age where there's been much more education to give people choices. The exchange of money for a service is a contract between a customer and a provider. If after full disclosure of the services a person still wants to enter into a contract to have their cards read, there should be no restrictions.
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Scott Preston Collins
Sounds like a lottery win to me. It would be an open and shut case of free speech violation as well religious discrimination. I say go out into the parking lot and start readings for 50 bucks a pop and dare them to try and enforce it.
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Keith David Harry
If she’s really that good… Diamondbacks or Rangers in how many games??
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Minister Butterworth
Keith,
I appreciate your humor, and a good baseball game.
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Catherine
The complete reading of the subject law is at:
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=71&sctn=4&subsctn=0
"§ 7104. Fortune telling.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of a misdemeanor of the third degree if he pretends for gain or lucre, to tell fortunes or predict future events, by cards, tokens, the inspection of the head or hands of any person, or by the age of anyone, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies, or in any other manner, or for gain or lucre, pretends to effect any purpose by spells, charms, necromancy, or incantation, or advises the taking or administering of what are commonly called love powders or potions, or prepares the same to be taken or administered, or publishes by card, circular, sign, newspaper or other means that he can predict future events, or for gain or lucre, pretends to enable anyone to get or to recover stolen property, or to tell where lost property is, or to stop bad luck, or to give good luck, or to put bad luck on a person or animal, or to stop or injure the business or health of a person or shorten his life, or to give success in business, enterprise, speculation, and games of chance, or to win the affection of a person, or to make one person marry another, or to induce a person to make or alter a will, or to tell where money or other property is hidden, or to tell where to dig for treasure, or to make a person to dispose of property in favor of another.
(b) Advertising as evidence.--Any publication contrary to this section may be given in evidence to sustain the indictment.
(c) Competency of witnesses.--Any person whose fortune may have been told shall be a competent witness against the person charged with violating this section."
It is (a) Offense defined that stands out most.
I think this particular article from 'Scientific American' presents some objective views despite the tippy toeing. Ms. Lawrence might use it, or similar, with this opportunity to change the outdated law.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/astrology-tarot-cards-and-psychotherapy/#
"Some psychotherapists incorporate these unconventional practices into their therapy, or at any rate do not discourage patients from pursuing them. “I’m not teaching it, but I’m not saying you can’t bring this into the room,” California psychologist Charlynn Ruan told Yar. “That would be disempowering and arrogant.”
"Psychoanalyst Carl Jung explained that the cards were an easy way to represent the ‘archetypes of mankind’—or universal traits like strength, ambition, and passion—in psychology, making them ideal tools for therapy and mental health."
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Chrystal Lacroix
I would find the loophole here’s only one: Sell business cards for a predetermined price and give away the reading as a free and included perk. This way you’re not getting money for the reading, but giving it way and you’re still making money from the ‘cards’ you offer ‘for sale’. Sometimes you need to figure out how to beat the system that’s beating you, to win.
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Catherine
Or properly suggested donations prior to rendering service.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
The English language is full of double speak and ways to talk around things. Only most of us don't use it to our advantage.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
This is right up there with freedom of speech and of course the inevitable and despicable habit of sticking a legal nose into someone's underpants. It certain;y is less awful than the glamoured temptation to toss your assets away with online casino gambling. Give it a rest, folks!!!
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Suzanne Sunshower
When I set up shop in Michigan, I discovered that lots of places have obscure regulations concerning tarot reading ("fortune telling") etc - Michigan being one of them. I'd had no idea!
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Minister Butterworth
Gimme a break. While i don't approve of tarot etc, i believe persons have the right to choose what they want to do so long as they are not hurting anyone. Without being harassed. These police. What an absolute waste of man hours. I wonder how many officers spent how much time looking thru the books for any little thing to harass the store with. Theres real crimes happening all over the place and this is those officers answer on how to make the world a safer place for us all.
And just FYI as a bit of interest, the Salem witch trials were not done in the United States and no Americans were involved withthem.
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Catherine
@Minister Raymond Butterworth
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a-brief-history-of-the-salem-witch-trials-175162489/
"The Salem witch trials occurred in colonial Massachusetts between early 1692 and mid-1693."
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Minister Butterworth
Thank you so much, you helped prove my point. I don't know why everyone thinks it was americans. Massachusetts was a province of England during the time period in question with governing leadership appointed by those in England. There was no united states of America. There were no americans. The salem witch trials were conceived and perpetrated by the English. America wouldn't come along until 80 plus years later.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Are you seriously suggesting American history just dropped out of the sky out of nothing when America was founded? Or perhaps there were numerous political and social forces already at play that to this day make it what it is?
Not sure what your point is - but it doesn't make any sense, near as I can tell.
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Catherine
@Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I thought Minister Raymond Butterworth tried to correct the ULC author of this post.
"In the late 1600s in Massachusetts, over 150 people – most of them young to middle-age women – were accused of practicing witchcraft in a period of hysteria that later became known as the Salem Witch Trials."
So I shared the link above. He made comments so odd I thought it might seem petty to respond. Nitpicking comes too naturally sometimes. Not feeling petty about it today : . )
Use of 'province' is debatable.
Mr. Butterworth referred to America and its people as the United States and Americans, respectively. Then said he didn't know why people think the Salem Witch Trials were in the United States. Verbal conundrum.
What follows, is for Mr. Butterworth and interested others.
Metaphysical systems and practices function without our approval or belief.
Sometimes an opinion means we're thinking : . ) After realizing I’ve formed an ignorant opinion, I try to address that and incorporate a new understanding. Our thinking must change or we become mired in a quicksand of stubborn ignorance that stifles inner growth and affects all around us.
I’ve noticed most people don’t bother to learn about practices like Tarot, numerology, astrology, etcetera. I've studied astrology off and on for about eleven years and barely scratched the surface, mainly because the history of metaphysics in general interests me altogether more. An accredited astrologer studies full time about five-ish years. Then is mentored before being considered professional. By comparison a tarot reader must be similarly learned or especially gifted. Then there are the wannabes and fakes, same as in any other profession.
Those who have not learned Tarot yet disapprove of it, have homework to do before offering an informed opinion. Said elsewhere, a good start is 'Interpreting The Eclipses' by Robert Carl Jansky.
Excerpt from page 6:
"If the nervous system conducts electricity, then every time we move we are cutting lines of magnetic force in the Earth's field and thus we all become generators every time we move. To move is to generate an electrical force over our nervous system. Thus we are energized not only by the food we eat but by our movements, within Earth's magnetic field as well. The character of this energy we generate must be influenced by the character of the magnetic field through which we are moving.
We also know scientifically that the strength and concentration of magnetic lines of force varies from place to place over the surface of the Earth. Thus the geographic location in which the body cuts through Earth's magnetic lines of force influences body response and energization. Thus, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the place of birth and present geographical location could influence behavior patterns, which is what astrology has been trying to tell the world for centuries."
As for being a system of metaphysical understanding, tarot might be more or less that. I think a tarot reader’s abilities and the person they read for have connections through their energy and the energy of their location. Each individual being unique, there are too many variables for the efficacy of tarot to be scientifically disproved.
At varied latitudes and longitudes, iron and water interact more or less with sources of electricity. That includes us, being individual sources of electricity. Every life form contains a uniquely integrated compass and set of experiences as a result.
If you’ve felt so at peace in a place that you want to stay there, or been where you feel an inexplicable urge to leave immediately, consider what you are made of is interacting with that environment.
Recognize there is more of you, more to you, to explore than meets conscious thought.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
While I admire your wisdom and expertise, as you come across as very smart and intelligent, I would like to address the rejection of the Tarot reading thing.
I was mentored into the occult since my childhood. I was very good at Tarot reading, and everyone wanted to have them read by me all the time. Of course, they were all adults and I did it as a hobby at no charge
I know the occult first-hand. I know what it is from navigating it myself and still suffering the consequences. While I'm not going into detail, as I think it unnecessary and imprudent, I also had an exorcism performed on myself by the late vice-president of Vatican exorcists due to cessation. He told me I did not need it but performed it anyway, for my peace of mind. He said had developed skills in the occult that prevented demons from hiding from me in places of infestation, and I was to submit them or use them to Christ's authority. He is based near London, and that's how I was able to get hold of him through a friend.
I am not Catholic, but I fully appreciate the expertise of the Catholic Church in this field.
Shalom :-)
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Minister Butterworth
Forgive my miscalculation. I meant 155 years later. I believe that those brave souls who fought for and won our independence were Americans before 7-4-1776. As soon as those farmers and family men decided to buck on England, the American attitude was born and with it this great nation. All else up to that moment was just an extension of England with the crown attitude to fit. It certainly was not nor anywhere near it 155 years prior to independence.
And Kenneth, that you are unable to make sense of my words somehow seems like a complement. Thank you.
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Catherine
@Minister Raymond Butterworth
"All else up to that moment was just an extension of England with the crown attitude to fit. "
All else? What about Spain and France during the same time frame?
What new settlers were called in America at the time of the Salem Witch Trials is not especially important for the purpose of the article. They eventually became known as Americans, with or without a demonym from another country.
The Salem Witch Trials occurred on American soil in what became the United States, by Americans, albeit with a demonym at that time. And this particular discussion is unlikely to occur in that time because wouldn't we all be held blasphemous for it?
I also think since England did not adequately fund Walter Raleigh and Humphrey Gilbert well enough to firmly establish an England owned America, and with Spain and France being present, that a demonym in front of American does not mean much now or then.
So what was your contention with the writer of the article regarding use of Americans and the United states, specific to the Salem Witch Trials?
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Minister Butterworth
Catherine,
What about Spain and France? It wasn't a province of Spain or France. It was a province of England. Those people did not become Americans. They all died as Englishmen. Generations later Some of their distant kin became Americans. 155 years before no one was even thinking about our great nation. Let's just say that my great great grandfather killed someone. Would you call me a killer as well? Silly isn't it.
But, you just keep on shaving off the corners. Eventually you will get that square peg in the round hole.
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Catherine
@Minister Raymond Butterworth
Who is really shaving off corners to suit what they want to believe?
Trying to be slippery can take you so far into the deep end that nothing makes sense.
That's what you achieved by not thinking before you spoke.
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
Catherine makes a good argument. You are the one who keeps shaving off the corners. Eventually, you will get that square peg in the round hole!
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
Did you mean 'compliment'? :-)
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
It was the same people, no matter what you want to call them.
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
What do you mean no Americans were involved in the Salem witch trials?
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John Alex Paxson
What next .... burning at the stake???
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Pastor George Day
John Alex Paxson,
That already happened.
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William David Gilbreath
It's always amazing to me how fast people claim this or that and don't think about why many laws are put into place. With a law like this how many people have paid how much to scamers for false hope? How many have been scamed into paying for false hope in talking to loved ones? The key in this law isn't the reading of the cards, but the reading for coin. She might be able to by pass the law with a simple entrance fee or something else and give "free" reading at the end.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I seriously doubt this law was to prevent people from being scammed. How about Olsteen, Robertson et al? How about the ‘seed money’ scam being used now. Nope, it had to do with stopping witchcraft. If any protection was being done it was to prevent exposure to ‘the devil’.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Snort.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Similarly, book bans are put into place to "protect people from themselves".
Funny how some people demonize "social justice" then excuse censorship and exclusion when it violates their own sense of 'social justice'.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
You do know that every single one of these services, for those that are reputable, all state that this is for "entertainment only" don't you? You're being quite judgemental and it almost sounds like you agree with her being arrested for practicing the craft.
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Amber Fry
Some laws might be but scams do have a certain pattern of behavior and discussion. Reasonable payment for a person's time isn't part of that.
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Rev Ned
Doesn’t this violate the anti-establishment clause of our Constitution, which seems to be under attack from the Christian Taliban?
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Pastor George Day
This is illicit gain - tantamount to fraud - and selling of drugs (love potions and alike stuff)!
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Rev Ned
IMHO, your “religion” which sells the hope of eternal life, like Joel Osteen etc., is also a scam and fraud, separating “believers” from their hard earned cash. If out of the many religions, only one is true, logic would dictate that none are true. That said, to hedge my bet, I have made a 5.5’ pole arm to be buried with me along with me, along with a sturdy knife and tomahawk. Then, if the Valkyries carry me across the Rainbow Bridge to Valhalla, I’ll have weapons to fight the Ice Giants with during the periodic breaks in partying. Blessed be!
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Pastor George Day
Rev Ned,
This makes no sense!
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Conservatives get very offended when it is suggested their thinking might be archaic, discriminatory, or prejudiced - then they do things like this.
no thats all on your side of the fence.
Post examples DG.
We already have been through this and examples were posted. But since you want more
Sisters of the poor
Cake maker decision
Flower arrange decision
Abortion "rights?" I love how people try and use this saying the Government has no right to their personal health decisions, ignoring the simple fact you have to get a blood test before getting married in every state in the Union-you have to get mandated shots before traveling outside the country-you have to get mandated shots before going to school so why are they not complaining about Government interference then?
Then you have books Books like “Of Mice and Men;” “Adventures of Huckleberry Finn,” and several Dr. Seuss titles have been challenged in some schools and libraries due to racist language or imagery. They are trying to get Charlottes web banned for crying out loud. There were fewer attempts to restrict books in Florida than in California. You have liberal writer KAT Rosenfield not only supporting book banning, but demanding they start with the right. Even the NY Times confirms this
left tearing down statues or demanding name changes of sports teams. Heck they even forced a few very popular bands to change their names.
SO why do you bother asking for proof that you know is going to tear you to ribbons, unless you are some kind of masochist.
No marital blood test requirement anymore.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/chart-state-marriage-license-blood-29019.html
https://mises.org/power-market/pre-marriage-blood-test-america-now-gone
Not really 34 states still had laws on the books requiring blood tests before marriage.
Give me an e.g. I've been married often and haven't had to do a blood test since 1972.
Connecticut, the District of Columbia, Georgia, Indiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, and Oklahoma. And thats just a small sampling
They must be ignoring them, then, as I have a hard time believing two different sources would have incorrect information. From one of them:
Do You Need Blood Tests to Get Married?
Almost all states in the U.S. have dropped any blood-test requirements before getting married. The only (partial) exception is New York, which requires that Black and Latino applicants for marriage licenses take a blood test for sickle cell anemia. The law allows religious exemptions, and the results of the test won't affect anyone's ability to get married. (N.Y. Dom. Rel. Law § 13-aa (2022).)
In place of mandatory blood tests, some states require that applicants for marriage licenses read a brochure or pamphlet that includes information about inherited and sexually transmitted diseases (such as AIDS), as well as how to get tests for those diseases.
NOLO does in fact show them Most are for diseases only, like in NY its done for Sickle cell anemia, in Montana its done for Rubella immunity, Missouri and the district of Columbia does it for syphilis. Just because they have the laws on the books does not mean they always follow them. IN fact in every state you can find laws on the books that are still considered laws, but are not being followed.
So why get undies in a bundle over this?
I'm available to marry any pair who think they want to file joint income taxes. Their personal biz. Legal marriage is a business deal, a contract. The personal relationship is, well, personal.
Just make sure that your state recognizes your "minister" license. Quite a few of them do not recognize the licenses issued from this place in anyway or form
The only state I'm aware of that doesn't let us perform weddings is Virginia. The other 49 states recognize ULC ministers.
“Reverend-Minister-Priest-Imam-Rabbi-etc” are honorific titles assigned by various religious authorities to people who have completed a study in that religion and who alone have the right to determine who is qualified the use it. Some denominations (and quasi-denominations) shun such titles. Plymouth Brethren have no clergy, but they do recognize some elders. Many Evangelicals grant the title to ordained and/or licensed ministers. To acquire ordination or license a certain educational accomplishment is REQUIRED, and also an assessment of character is required. These groups take this advice seriously; “Do not ordain (by the laying on of hands) prematurely, for if you grant recognition you stand responsible for his wrongdoing”. (Rosten’s paraphrase).
Of course you can always apply to a paper mill and get ordained with no qualifications at all. That is why it is important to know who granted someone their recognition. Then you can appraise its value. Since a certain amount of indoctrination is involved in all legitimate ordinations, you also get a sense of what they represent. In almost every religion out there you are REQUIRED to go through education to even consider yourself being called a pastor-priest-Imam-Rabbi-Buddihst-etc. And for a christian you are required to have at least a Bachlors degree and then enter a Seminary and graduate from that or go to a Bible College and graduate from same.
Almost ALL (except for California) states require you to do the following before you are allowed to be recognized as a pastor/imam/rabbi/Buddhist/Priest/etc:
The applicant must submit a copy of the minister’s credentials issued from the religious society or congregation. Credentials may come in the form of an official certificate or letter on proper letterhead from the religious society or congregation. The credentials must state the applicant is regularly ordained or a licensed minister of the religious society or congregation. A certificate marked as an “unofficial” copy may not be submitted with the minister license application.
So Sorry but states (except for California) dont recognize ULC certifications as valid as they are not a recognized religious group. Here in Ohio we had one who was preforming marriages, and after a couple found out that they were not legally married as the ULC "minister" was not recognized by the state, it created a major stink and the ULC is not recognized as a group that can issue a ministers license.
I probably will see this removed but facts are facts no matter who does not like it
Daniel Gray,
I admire the humility of our moderators. Your statements are tantamount to calumny as they are factually incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_the_Universal_Life_Church
And you do know right...that wikipedia states you cannot use them as a valid source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
So we are supposed to believe your wikipedia link....why exactly?
Michael Hunt,
What about the UK?
Not getting undies in a bunch over anything. I am just showing that the poster who claimed this wasnt a law is wrong.
Jeez Dan, it took you nine long-winded posts to claim your undies were unbunched!
Geeze BH, its people like you and kenneth that seem to have their panties in a bunch when they get destroyed. But hey please continue. Its fun watching you squirm
Thank you for your reply DG. That was very obliging, and I appreciate it.
This is a little long but given the breadth of your reply it is necessary. Because of blog limitations it must be posted in two parts. My apologies.
Part 1.
It has become a staple of right-wing media that "the left" are working feverishly to ban books, restrict rights, and force other unnecessary and even nonsensical limitations and changes on conservative victims. The facts, however, do not support this narrative: https://pen.org/research-resources/
What the right does not discuss in any rational way is WHY any of this goes on. They just make a lot of vague and threatening sounding references to the "Woke" or "liberal agenda" as they carry out their own agenda of discrimination and oppression. The name of the game is always 'Them Vs Us', with the story that liberals want to rule the world and conservatives must vote for conservative politicians so they can "Own the libs". This narrative has proven extremely popular with conservatives.
Truth, reality, facts, reasonableness, justice, context, intelligence and so much more are all thrown right out of the window in the right's zealous demand for political and social domination. Your reference to abortion in your reply illustrate this perfectly, where you compare getting a mandated blood test or vaccine to being forced to have and raise unwanted children. There is no comparing a 5 minute medically sensible appointment with a lifetime of forced pregnancy and parenthood, but outright lies and ridiculousness haven't stopped conservatives for quite some time now.
And it is true there have been some changes coming from left-wing values. The right resents this tremendously, and the reason is always the same - because the right WANTS to discriminate. With Dr. Seuss books, for example, the objection was to extremely offensive racial stereotyping, depicted in some of his lesser-known books. This included Asians depicted with extreme buck teeth and slanted slits for eyes, and Africans depicted as cannibals with bones in their noses, etc. These caricatures - which were NOT political mandates, by the way, but were an independent decision by the book publisher who chooses every year what they feel will sell and what has aged into offensiveness - are extremely derogatory, but right-wing propaganda intentionally leaves out the specifics and reports it as, "The liberals are coming after Dr. Suess!", and right-wingers respond with indignation and rage, and it's readily apparent why.
As usual with conservatives, discrimination and bigotry IS the point - cruelty and judgement IS the point. Effectively, by conservatives continually supporting these representations it becomes blatantly obvious that conservatives WANT other races depicted this way. To conservatives, this points out whites as the beautiful race, the default race - the master race - and these conservatives are just fine with that, and don't want to see it go away. There is no other reason to support these depictions.
Reply to DG, part 2.
This holds true with EVERY example DG brought up, whether it's archaic books, or reverence for statues of proponents of slavery, or Confederate war heroes (and the slave economy they fought for), or derogatory sports team names, or whatever - everything the right objects to being changed or removed is in some way a disparagement or insult of 'an inferior', and they don't want to lose that. There is no other reason to object to these changes.
It's also the same story with the SCOTUS cases DG brings up as 'proof' of conservative victimhood. The Sisters of the Poor case was about religious privilege in their FOR-PROFIT facility. To these conservatives, not being able to exercise privilege by choosing and enforcing their own arbitrary health care rules, which effectively forces people to adhere to the sisters’ religious beliefs, whether or not they are religious, makes them the victim.
WHY do these people not want to serve the LGBTQ+? Because they disapprove of the LGBTQ+, plain and simple. These conservatives have decided they are superior to the LGBTQ+ and seek to do everything in their power to impose social inferiority on the LGBTQ+.
People living their own lives their own way has ZERO effect on these conservatives. The ONLY thing being asked of them is to do the same job they do every day the same way they always do it - but to these conservatives, not being able to impose inferiority on other people makes them the victim. This, BTW, is exactly what happened in 1883 when the SCOTUS struck down an 1875 civil rights law that said racial discrimination by private individuals was unconstitutional, a decision which in turn wasn't struck down until 1968. Read about it here: https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/oct/15
This is what these conservatives WANT. They want legitimized and legalized discrimination against the LGBTQ+. It’s the bigot’s legal weapon of choice, just as it was the racist’s legal weapon of choice. They have had various successes in the courts recently, but the arc of history is clear. History will not be kind to these conservatives.
This is what justice is to these conservatives: privilege and the imposition of inferiority on others. This is why these conservatives WANT to discriminate. They WANT to impose social inferiority, to force people to live a life that pleases these conservatives, to tell other people to pound sand, to cut people to ribbons and laugh at them. That is what they continually demonstrate - and when blocked from doing so, call themselves victims because of it.
"He is sovereign who decides the exception."
Carl Schmitt, 'Political Theory'
still forcing politics into this I see. Your argument must not be worth spit if you cant make a point on your own without having to bring in your view of politics into every conversation.
DG - are you for real?
You literally state "the left" is doing this and that - and then accuse ME of "forcing politics". You do realize people have eyes - right?
The reason the left keeps losing the propaganda war is simple. We aren't waging one - but the right has been waging one for decades, and that has largely brought us to where we are today. This is all well documented - references on request.
But keep on with the magic spells DG. It's your soul - you can do with it what you want.
Thats because if you would have read the original message, it claimed that Conservatives were doing all of this. My GOD you cant even stay with the message.
You got me DG. Truth is I am highly brain damaged, and it's all I can do to remember who I'm talking to, let alone about what.
Do me an extreme favor and guide me through the discussion from my original comment through to your 'correction' of my view.
I would really appreciate you explaining it all to me, so it makes sense.
You said it, not me so if you want us to accept your word then we have to accept this
@KLES Interesting series of detailed posts. DG’s responses are to move the goal posts and toss out a one-liner. You’re making sense but, well, how about a quote from Twain?
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
Sigh. I can't help but defer to Jesus' comments regarding LQBTQ+.
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
For once I agree with you in full!
Blood test for getting married in all 50 states? Really? I've been married in two different states and have never given a drop. You speak like book banning is a statewide thing but all book bans are local - and with around 19,500 municipalities in the US a handful of examples to support any cause is pretty easy to come up with. I wonder how many other of your "facts" are as slippery as these?
The government should only have power over your health decisions when those decisions affect another person. Your behavior spreads disease to others? Causes harm to others, should be illegal. You want to surgically alter your body? Does not cause harm to anyone else, not the government's business. Abortion - that's a truly difficult one, it may end the life of a viable baby, or it may save a mother's life when the baby will die anyway - or a thousand different scenarios in-between. Both a total ban and total access can cause harm.
The biggest problem in modern politics is the strong tendency towards all-or-nothing thinking (which in the DSM-V is listed as a common symptom of mental illness) by the loudest voices. Actually, make that the second biggest. The biggest problem is people believing that a handful of loudmouths represent the opinion of everyone on a political "side". Most of us are grown up adults who are willing to find compromise in a situation. But as long as the loudmouths are in political office we will never find solutions that allow us to all live together peacefully.
already gave a small sampling for proof of what I said. Try reading for once.
Daniel, how can you say "it's on your side of the fence?" It happens on all sides. Conservative, liberal, DNC, GOP. I like who you only post examples from your side of the fence.
Seems like its more one sided then anything else. I guess you ignored what states and cities have done or tried to do when they dont get the myths they want? And then they have to be slapped down by the courts as violations of the 1st Amendment. And even then you are called names like racist/bigot/homophobic/as well as others when they lose and start throwing a tantrum.
I stand by what I said
You mean like the civil rights cases of 1883 DG?
https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/oct/15
Why is the right always celebrating going backwards?
@Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Because drawing from past successes is working for them?
Though, I also think both parties have blended into a gang of radical statists, barely leaving a faded trace of left and right.
I think part of what ails us is the necessary pretense to have rights because if we don't, this country would be in worse chaos.
I think neither the L or R or statists care about tarot or any other archaic law unless it serves or works against them. Natural, I suppose.
@Catherine Colvin
It is easy to become discouraged with the entire political system.
The Republicans no longer even try to hide their xenophobic, bigoted, racist, theocratic ambitions. Their policies are of death, cruelty, and fealty to the rich and powerful.
The Democrats have their problems, for sure, one of which is their ineptness, and another their insistence that the Republicans truly want to share the political discourse and process. Every time the Republicans come up with another hateful cruel or grafting policy, they simply shout "YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THIS BECAUSE IT'S OUR OPINION!", and the Democrats listen! This is what has continually moved out country so far to the right.
So I try to work both fronts too, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater either. The Democrats will listen to reason. A fully Republican America will be the end of America.
@Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I hear you. Though I'm thinking the baby threw the itself out with the bathwater some time ago :)
Now both sides look more at how to profit from public office instead of serving the public. So I've shifted from being concerned about what none of us has control over, to passive aggressive action by refusing to participate.
I can be a donkey sometimes and I nearly have the memory of an elephant :=)
And you do know Kenny that the people who voted against that were DEMOCRATS! I mean since you always want to bring in politics then I guess its time to show that you should just stop
And why do the left continue to try and bring in items that have no meaning or purpose in todays world?
It seems to be conservatives who are banning and restricting things that are not illegal already so care to list exactly what it is being banned from the left?
The left is trying to ban examples of extreme stupidity but it’s a lot like playing whack-a-mole.
Can you post an example DZ?
Comment actually meant as a joke. The left is ‘permissive’ by nature. Efforts to ‘stop’ the right from imposing/legislating its beliefs onto others are common.
Dr. Zerpersande,
What is it that you deem 'stupidity'?
read above, there is a complete list of the left trying to ban something they dont agree with
Yep - and the reasons why, along with the reasons conservatives work zealously to stop it.
See yet again you have to bring politics into the discussion as you have nothing else to contribute.
And what did you just contribute?
Your fear of me talking politics - that's what.
No I just showed how weak your argument is if all you can do is bring in your flavor of the month politics when anyone says something
Daniel Gray,
Our focus should be on spirituality, not politics. That's a different realm of things.
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Are we a church or a political lobby?
I just don't get it. What's all this left vs right crap? I have my preferences as to which side I'm on, especially with the crazed Republican party these days. They seem to be worshipping the Golden Calf, er, Donald Trump and have a long history since at least the Nixon era of trying to screw over the common man. He is surely bawling like a poor little baby bovine (I grew up in dairy country and am familiar with their bleating) despite the fact that he's allegedly a 77 1/2-year-old man. But I digress.
Why does anyone support the use of these high-powered weapons by mentally disturbed citizens like the one used in Lewiston, Maine just days ago? Strikes me that despite religious affiliation, nobody would approve of this. Jesus wasn't very good at mowing down others, so for those of you who are professed Christians, how can you possibly support this and not fight against those who would do the ol' laissez-faire regarding these deadly weapons?
We need to reach a consensus that is not tainted by mega-monied interests. m I am so sick of the bickering. Cut it out.
Because Kenneth made a statement and I corrected him, and then he asked me to prove what I said.
Yes DG - you're just a hapless victim of me, pulling your strings and making you do things you don't want to.
No I just enjoy showing how wrong you are.
https://www.themonastery.org/blog/arrested-for-witchcraft-tarot-reader-threatened-with-jail-time#comment-338477
so you want to try and post your myths as "fact" now?
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Not at all. You are the one always bringing politics into the spectrum. Get a grip!
To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen or heard anyone "support the use of these high-powered weapons by mentally disturbed citizens"...
No one (maybe a few) support Mentally disturbed persons having any weapons.
As for Jesus mowing people down, he Allegedly, directly or indirectly mowed down plenty of people.
EXAMPLE: “But these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence” (Luke 19:27) e.
How is it not obvious that what used to be left and right work together to make it appear a left and right exist? The best of them stay where they are the same way they got there. Left and right became business persons. No more or less.
I think what evolved are statists and anti-statists. We live in new-ish times. If we switch mindsets to what is, our thinking is less likely to be rubbish and mental masturbation.