To snip or not to snip...
That is the question being debated in Iceland after a group of politicians proposed a law that would effectively ban all non-medical circumcisions in the Nordic country. Violators would face jail sentences of up to six years for "removing any part of a child's sexual organ."
The proposed ban has earned a frosty reception from the nation's Jewish and Muslim minorities, who insist the controversial proposal violates their religious freedoms by essentially criminalizing an ancient tradition that is central to their faith.
Members of the Nordic Jewish Community even went as far as claiming that if passed, the law would essentially prevent the country's tiny Jewish population from growing. "Iceland does not have an organized Jewish Community today. Banning [circumcision] will be an effective deterrent and will guarantee that no Jewish community will be established," they wrote in a statement. "Iceland would be the only country to ban one of the most central, if not the most central rite in the Jewish tradition in modern times."
History of Circumcision
Jews trace the tradition back to the book of Genesis, when God commanded Abraham to circumcise his own son (and every male after him) on the eighth day after birth as a sign of man's covenant with Him. By contrast, Islamic scholars have debated whether or not the practice is mandated in the Koran. Despite some disagreement on the issue, most Muslim boys do undergo circumcision, typically later in childhood (from ages 7-10). Certain Christians follow the tradition as well.
Why It's Dangerous
Critics of circumcision argue that not only are children unable to properly consent to the invasive medical procedure, but it can be potentially dangerous, too. A 2010 study estimates that more than 100 baby boys die in the U.S. alone each year from complications related to circumcision. If those are the U.S. numbers, it's unsettling to think about the rate of potential complications in less-developed countries.
So, despite the religious outrage, Icelandic politicians argue that the proposed bill must move forward. In their eyes, it's no different than a 2005 law banning female genital mutilation. Both are necessary to protect children's bodies from unwanted modification and to keep them safe, they insist.
"Everyone has the right to believe in what they want," explained MP Silja Dögg Gunnarsdóttir, who introduced the bill. "But the rights of children come above the right to believe."
Interestingly, Iceland would not be the first European country to ban circumcision. Germany passed a similar ban in 2012 after a four-year-old Muslim boywas hospitalized when his circumcision went terribly wrong. However, the law sparked similar religious backlash and was eventually reversed.
Religious Freedom vs. Public Safety
So, which side is right?
It's a complex situation. On the one hand, you have the practitioners of an age-old religious tradition unwilling to relinquish a central tenet of their faith. On the other, you have government officials seeking to protect the well-being of children in society.
One common criticism of organized religion is that it often involves parents 'choosing' what's best for their children. Do eight-day-old babies really have a say in whether or not they should be circumcised, any more than Christian babies have a right to choose whether or not they are baptized?
Where do religious freedoms end and the rights of children begin?
91 comments
-
John Owens
Bloody Hell! 90% of you DON'T think dismembering them inside the womb at any stage of development is barbaric, but you think this is. Many of you probably have piercings and tattoos. I haven't seen any posts on here about female genital mutilation. THAT'S barbaric! Circumcision performed on the eighth day of a male child's life is not barbaric unless you are pagan, in which case, your opinion does not count regarding it. Little girls have THEIR clitori cut out when they are old enough for grammar school, all for the purpose of ensuring they can never have a clitoral orgasm.
-
biblical scholar
The ULC has commented on female genital mutilation, in opposition to the practice: https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2013/02/ulc-applauds-call-to-end-fgm/
-
John Owens
Thank you. I stand corrected on that minor point. I did not remember the article. I still maintain that moral outrage should be directed at that practice, rather than male circumcision, which is normally these days not performed with a knife, but with a small rubber ring.
-
-
Carl Elfstrom
Have you seen those magazines of women with freakishly large clits ? That's all I'm going to say about that. They circumcised me as a baby, at St. Mary's Hospital in Galveston, and as far as I can tell by far most of my family is Christian, or at least claim to be. I also have more tattoos than most, long hair, my left ear is pierced, and I identify well with hippies. I don't care if males are circumcized or not, but the whole subject seems very stupid to me. The first man who claimed God told him to do that to babies was either a deranged, sadistic, delusional retard, meant it as a very sick joke, or wanted to see how many fools would believe him. I bet he's laughing his ass off about it with his god, in Jewish heaven right now.
-
Carl Elfstrom
And by the way, I happen to belong to a Pagan religion/life path, and don't see what that has to do with the price of tea in China, so I'm going to sit back, smoke another soon to be legal joint, and chill out to the heavenly sound of St. Ozzy telling us to have "No More Tears". Shalom, Amen, and Blessed Be!
-
John Owens
Well, I certainly don't care if you are clipped or not, Carl. My parents and grandparents were Christians, also. For whatever reason, they had my two brothers and I clipped, and so far as I know, we have suffered no ill effects on account of it. If nothing else, it has to make that member produce less cheese.
-
John Maher
JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS, W R O N G, JUST READ YOUR POSTs, the SNIP AFFECTED YOUR BRAIN, F..KT..D
-
-
-
-
The Doctor
Oh look owen the flat earther birther who hates change wants to bring up a hot button like abortion to create a smoke screen. Deal with the fact medical science supports the view that until a certain point a fetus isnt alive.
And deal with the fact a living child has rights and a parent doesnt have the right to mutilate without a real medical reason.
Parents should be able to be relied upon to teach little boys how to clean themselves thoroughly. Circumcision isnt a reasonable alternative to practicing good cleanliness.
And you do understand pagan is a hate term created by early christians to insult all those still practicing their cultural faiths right?
Calling someone a pagan, let alone dismissing them because of it sounds alot like well they are (name any dehumanized minority) so they dont count. Which considering alot of your other thinly veiled superior tough guy image you like to promote in your posts here I guess I shouldnt be surprised.
-
John Owens
Only an idiot who WANTS to be convinced could POSSIBLY be convinced that a healthy fetus is not alive. You are so stubbornly clinging to propaganda you didn't even qualify it with a time period in the womb. A damned WORM is alive, but you say a baby who is six months into development and healthy is NOT alive?!?! That is moronic. Besides that, why the HELL would you care if people circumcise their sons? It's not like you give a damn one way or the other. You just want someone to listen to your opinion while you harp. I understand that, but try to actually THINK before you start harping. I know you are NOT thinking. You wouldn't spout that fake medical science crap if you were thinking. Nothing scientific about it. They ARE alive and they DO feel pain. You just can't hear them SCREAM because they have no air in their lungs yet. You'd have to be a monster to have no pity and no mercy on those babies. A baby-killer. A freaking cannibal. But you piss and moan about a little useless piece of skin?
The saddest thing-- you cannot even see what an evil moronic contradiction that is.
-
John Owens
Since you bring up medical science though, here is something from the MAYO Clinic about circumcision. You might use it to develop a more INFORMED opinion before you harp: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550
-
TigerMoon2
John Owens says, "You just want someone to listen to your opinion while you harp." Here's a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. Makes me wonder if you've taken a break from your continuous ranting here since we clashed a few months back. Makes me wonder if you feel a need to bombard us with comments on EVERY topic here. You've demonstrated little respect for others here, you'll certainly get none from this pagan!
-
John Owens
I give as much respect or more than I get, Butt-head.
-
-
The Doctor
Oh owen owen owen you self righteous radical christian birther conspiracy believing pizza gate promoting owen.
While it is true science supports that babies can cry in the womb that isnt until the 2nd trimester. Well after the span of time in which any one with common sense knows abortions are not allowed with out real medical reasons.
I guess you lack common sense and need me to state that for some reason. I certainly dont condone baby killing. But until a fetus develops into a being that can hear and feel which is around week 24-28 I just see it as a maybe baby. And I also dont really see a baby as a certainty till it is past 2 years and out of the risk range of SIDS. I just am sane enough to practice rational detachment when uncertainty is a real factor.
And sure all cells are alive. But do you oppose blood being drawn? Do you mourn all the sperm that fail to penetrate the egg or are ejaculated when the woman isnt fertile? Do you never kill insects and rodents that make their way into your home?
You see I place no type of life as more valuable then any other. Which means I value even human life as no more precious then the rats and ants I poison and flies I swat when they buzz around and annoy me to much.
That doesnt mean I dont value life. I just dont place a high value on it. I mean 6 billion plus humans could die tomorrow and the human race and the world would be just fine. Death is a part of life and it doesnt distress me. I accept death as a constant companion. And will greet the reaper as an old friend at the end of every life I part ways with when the end of it comes. Then be born again and continue on the endless cycle of reincarnation.
While what is done to the living to harm them in the name of some ancient archaic practice does disturb me. Id sooner see a baby euthanized then mutilated and suffer for the rest of their mishapen life.
Hope that clears things up you poor misguided man who thinks the world was made in 7 days around 7 thousand years ago.
-
John Owens
"Id sooner see a baby euthanized then mutilated and suffer for the rest of their mishapen life." So you are saying all circumcised males would be better off dead. Would the same principle apply to pierced ears, circumcised clitora, breast-reduction, tummy-tucks, butt-tucks, or actual missing fingers or toes? You are waaaay too given to hyperbolic self-expression.
-
-
-
-
Rev. Hugo Lindum
Yes, John Owens, don't worry about the hundred boys a year who die in the USA alone, nor those that have their penises accidentally cut off: acceptable collateral damage.
-
John Owens
I am NOT worried about them. I am much more worried about the millions aborted.
-
-
-
flugo
Fact #1: The countries with the lowest rate of cervical cancer among women are the countries with the highest rate of male circumcision. Fact #2: The countries with the lowest rate of HPV are the countries with the highest rate of male circumcision. Fact #3: On the 8th day of life, the infant has the highest tolerance to pain. Fact #4: On the 8th day of life, the infant has the highest blood clotting capability.
-
John Owens
Thank you, Bob.
-
Donna
I have been a registered nurse for 32 years. The procedure takes less than one minute and the baby is given some pain relief if needed. However, most babies, immediately calm down immediately. The rate of medical and personal complications that arise from no circumcision are paramount, not just for the young man growing up and into adulthood, but later for his intimate partner that can have devastating consequences. I don't care what religion you are.
-
John Owens
Thank you, Donna.
-
-
Karin
Thank you. I thought the picture attached to this original post was particularly appalling. That is not an 8-day old baby. Plus when the doctors can’t get it right they historically have called a mohel to do the circumcision. I wonder if those deaths are from doctors who hardly ever do them or someone who has done a couple thousand.
-
-
drrgrivera
No one should be outside without a hoodie or scarf around their neck in Iceland! and anyway it's the medical field practitioners that are suppose to be angry about it due to medical reasons. The religious outrage arise from deeply planted sexual misconceptions and the dumbest imaginable. Their God has the same nonsense they invent. Truly a Medical Quake and we would be better off not confusing this quake with the the Creator of all things unless of course.... He's the one handing us over to these views we're always fighting over. Think about that.
-
James
It been proven to be more hygienic and stimulates women more. So sounds like a plus me.
-
Chuck
Personally, I'm glad I am just for comfort reasons. But, it is odd that a Jewish practice became medically mainstream. But hey, even our law is Jewish (Judicial = Judaic). Truth be known though, its a practice that the Demiurge (Old Testament "God" is not the real God) placed to mark his cattle (servants). I mean, does anyone actually believe that the ultimate Creator goes around telling people to brand themselves, what to wear, what to eat, etc??? (LOL)
-
Carl Elfstrom
It might just be a bad acid trip.
-
Carl Elfstrom
All roads lead to Rome. I'd rather follow Marcus Àrelius.
-
-
-
Dave
I have no earthshaking thoughts on this, although I am circumcised. My complaint is using a toddler as a picture, instead of the 2-8 day old infant that circs are usually done on. Shame on you for this disingenuous photo.
-
Dan
Dave, it seems clear the photo in question is of a Muslim child, seeing as Jews and Christians both circumcise shortly after birth. A quick google search will tell you that circumcision occurs at older ages in Muslim populations (which is arguably much more cruel, since the child will carry a memory of the incident).
"For the majority of Muslims, circumcision is seen as an introduction to the Islamic faith and a sign of belonging. In Islam there is no fixed age for circumcision. The age at which it is performed varies depending on family, region and country. The preferred age is often seven although some Muslims are circumcised as early as the seventh day after birth and as late as puberty."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/malecircumcision.shtml
In any event, it's hardly disingenuous to show the reality of circumcision in other cultures.
-
John Owens
So, the Icelanders want to ban it for everybody, because they don't like how the Muslims do it.
-
-
-
Jess Martin
Circumcision might have various health benefits, including: Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. ... Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. ... Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. ... Prevention of penile problems. ... Decreased risk of penile cancer. Circumcision (male) - About - Mayo Clinic https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550
-
John Owens
Thank you for that, Jess.
-
-
Tom B
With regard to the question posed, no laws should ever be passed that are predicated on religious principles...parents are entitled to make the decision regarding circumcision, as they are the legal guardians of their children, unless otherwise concluded by a court...
-
Jack Lam
I just wander length of penis without circumcised. Lol
-
John Owens
There's a joke about that: "Why do Jewish women like their men circumsized? Because being Jews, they can't resist something that's 25% off."
I know, ethnic joke, but not a mean one.
-
-
Carl Elfstrom
However, don't you think it could be considered pornographic? There could be some pervets out there with toddler and baby fetishes. Wouldn't it be something if they circumcised a boy at puberty who had his first orgasm at the same time. That would difinitely be a great way to relieve pain. Maybe doctors performing the procedure could help induce an orgasm at the exact same time the doctor made the incision. Then again, could that be considered as practicing S&M?
-
John Owens
That's just a little beyond normal speculation, Carl, in my humble opinion.
-
TigerMoon2
Heh, heh... glad we can actually agree upon something.
-
John Owens
We can probably agree on a lot more, if we don't make conversation into a pissing contest. For what it's worth, I wish I were not so easily provoked. It bespeaks weakness on my part.
-
-
-
-
Janice A Ellery
Perhaps make them wait until the age of thirteen? Most religions require adolescents to confirm acceptance of their faith. An eight day old baby can't do that. Adolescents and adults should be allowed that choice. Iceland is kind of hypocrites anyways. They encourage women to abort down syndrome babies but are concerned about this?
-
Carl Elfstrom
They probably have frostbitten brains. They shouldn't go outside at all in that climate. It's surprising they have to debate such an issue. If they're outside for not much more than a few minutes their whole penises will freeze right off.
-
-
Carl Elfstrom
It sure is taking the ULC a long time to moderate my comments. I don't know if I should ad something or think of something new. We can't expect everything I say to make it. I'll be the first to admit that I do sometimes get carried away with what I'm saying, and probably ought to be moderated. It's just that people like me aren't shy, never developed the character defect called embarrassment, and have a tendency to thrive on attention.
-
John Owens
My wife and my daughter, and occasionally my Sergeant at Arms will sometimes try to remind me to "filter" some of the things I am attempting to say.
-
-
Father Fred
The fact that a child is held down, and has to feel the pain points to an evil we have in both religion and the medical profession. It's easy to understand not to circumcise when one sees this. Interesting as well is the fact that some don't see female genital mutilation as a problem.
-
Chuck
Iceland has gone off the reservation in many ways. They left the Central Banks, want nothing to do with the E.U., are embracing holistic medicine big time, and breaking from all other strange and unexplained old practices. Theyre getting ready for "the end" as a couple people from over there told me, so that they can be self-sustained and watch the world burn.
And Ive been to Reykjavik, its beautiful.
-
Reverend Father Denis-Peter:
circumcisions is not only a jew thing, it is also a health thing, or a correction for a foreskin that does not pull back correctly, and leads to infections, the jew way that is done by a rabbid, sex deviate can be very dangerous, with unclean cutting instruments, and the final touch being a suck on the child's penis, which passes the filth from a mouth to an open cut, as well as a being a real sexual assault, carried out by a deviate, if done in a hospital by surgeons, in a hygiene clean environment, where,is, no sex deviates suck the child's penis, then there is no danger.
-
The Doctor
Didnt read the article did you, you blatant anti semite. 100 children a year in the states alone die from it being done by medical professionals. And boys at a young age can and should be taught how to pull back the foreskin and clean it. I did and have never once in my life had smegma or any form of infection. I just pull it back when I shower and use a soapy sponge there like everywhere else till it feels scrubbed good and clean. Learned how to do so when I was like 3 or 4. Its not something hard to teach except by those prudish puritanical types that cant handle teaching kids about sex and intimate area hygiene,
-
-
Rev jack
without a foreskin, you are not left with a Fish smell after sex trapped behind the hood, so it a good thing if you want a nice clean tool, that does not smell of cheese and fish.
-
The Doctor
Gross and also a common myth that has no truth. I have a foreskin and learned to clean myself properly as a small boy. And I always shower after a bout of love making. Granted being a kinky guy I usually have my lover lick me clean down there after we finish.
Those odors like any other BO occur only if one doesnt practice hygiene.Its no different then showering after a workout etc.
-
Iconoclast
There's a mental picture!
-
-
The Doctor
Many of the old traditions did have some medical sense at the time. The ban on certain foods more prone to parasites and spoiling for example. Circumcision to in a time when regular bathing was not very common had some logic behind it. And it seems that like with many practices in various religions the main trick seemed to be to just say its what a diety wants rather then use logic to reason with people.
But in the U.S. for example people should be bathing daily, they should be able to count on their parents to teach them how to clean themselves and practice it habitually. But at the core this law isnt wrong a child can not consent, and parents should not be making this choice for them. Frankly someone making the choice at 18 to get clipped would be in my opinion a real show of commitment to a way of life.
Id consider it a logical practice in poor countries where running water and hygiene are uncommon. But in an educated modern land that wishes to call itself the paramount of modern civilization it has no place. If certain religious or cultural factions want to take it as a personal affront to bad.
-
Rev Adrian
If we were made in God's image, then god had a todger with skin on. If he wants you to now remove it, why didn't he create it without the skin? More interesting, why does god need a todger? Was there a Mrs god to use it on? This also begs the question of the need of sex for a god and why is he so interested in our private parts and what we do with them or to whome?
-
Bob
Good Points .
-
-
Vanella Crawford
What’s the preoccupation with the why, who and how of sexual behavior and practices? I truly want to know.
-
Amy
It depends n a deeper knowing how a child incarnates into a Jewish or Muslin family. Some feel think that the child chooses the parents. Then if thst is do then the child chose Jewish or Muslim parents who follow the tradition of one or the other. It’s not belief vs. protection if children. It’s cultural traditions for over five thousand years - that sense perhaps that at 8 days the child has no real pain memory- vs hospital circumscision - this is an interesting debate. Suppose if children no longer are curvunscised and lived life naturally uncut- maybe it could impact the lowering of violence. Maybe it cones from a preventable trsuma.
-
Andrew Kidd
My faith suggest the practice of circumcision. Personally, I don’t remember procedure so I don’t mind being “kosher”.
-
Just American
Carl we are so proud to have you as a member of the human race. From all your innuendos and insults and "porn" references of your magazine you apparently read, I am sure that you contribute a lot to the "diversity" of people in your lower class. I am not sure, what benefit for you, that your on a site like this other than to create chaos, conflict and controversy. You seem to think that anyone here cares about you lack of respect for your body as you have pointed out in great detail. If you "don’t care if males are circumcised (learn to spell) or not" about the subject then why waste yours and everyone else with you nonsensical statement, low intelligent humor and language ? Not to mention of your Jewish insults. Maybe you need to reconsider you value not only to fundamentals of this site but you as a person. The only one being laughed at is you and not for your humor.
-
Just American
Why is it that now seems to be a practice to find a stat your looking for, that's fits your agenda, and use that as a basis for a argument? The number of 100 deaths above article for children in the US is not only pure fantasy but an outright lie at worst. Any search will reveal stat by reliable source such as the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatricians which report that the rate is 1 in 500,000 performed. Given that there are 1.3 million male infant circumcisions in the U.S., that would put the morality rate at 0 to 2.5; not 100 to 117. I suppose some of you would rather rely on Carl Elfstrom above comments who seems to be more concerned with not getting enough attention in his comment
-
Rev. Rose
I was circumcised when I was born. The only side effect was I couldn't walk for a year...
-
Andrew Kidd
Me too?
-
-
Tom B
chuckle...
-
Christian
Evolution or God's Image ?
Humans are made as they are made - and do not need any extra holes, scars, or cuts carved into them as adults or as children.
Mutiliation of children does not bring your closer to the Creator of all the Cosmos. Galaxies, Stars, Planets, Moons, motes of space dust - All as the Creator intended. No need to push metal rods into toungues, or cut holes in ears, or poke holes in noses, or cut up genitals. NO form of self or other mutilation is required for spiritual enlightenment. If you want to meditate in the Shaman's tent... enjoy. But religous freedoms end where another's person begins. Believe as you wish, but do no harm to others. You would not want others to harm you ! So be polite and return the favor. Put down the knife. Do not cut yourself. Do not cut other people. Bring true Kindness and real Healing to all the world. This is your nature. Be helpful. Be loving. Live Peace.
-
Danny
The kid in the picture sure looks old? I had mine done before I left the hospital Why would the subject a child this old to go threw this. I think if it wasn’t done back when you were born it shouldn’t be done when your as old as this kid. The kid probably has nightmares about getting his penis cut off. Poor kid
-
Bill Fox
I'm sure these same people advocate surgery for a pre-teen boy to change a perfectly healthy penis into a grotesque mimic of a vagina.
-
The Doctor
oh look another ignorant transgenderphobe who does not grasp that they do not ever do that. transgender does not automatically mean sex change operation some do choose to pursue such eventually but its not some SOP that happens as soon as someone starts exploring the concept.
And news flash the operation if/when it occurs is always on consenting adults. Doctors do not do such operations just because on some whim. The rare times it is done on minors it always has valid medical health reasons.
Not to mention it is done so well that there have been cases of men being in relationships sexually with transgendered women for years with no clue their lover was once physically different. Boob jobs are easier to identify.
-
-
Father Fred
Government has no business in religious decisions,,, or for that matter, health or healthcare.
-
The Doctor
A governments job is to protect and serve its people from the weakest and poorest to the strongest and wealthiest. Religion has no place pushing a risky medical procedure onto children too young to decide for themselves if they want to practice the faith of their parents.
And health care should be provided to the poor and wealthy equally by the government. Not a business that will always favor the rich and ignore the poor.
You do understand that female genital mutilation, honor killings, stoning raped women etc all are part of various religious practices right?
Faith is fine, as long as it does not harm another. circumcision on a child is wrong period.
For the record I dont even condone ear piercings on children. Moms who want to put earings on toddlers disgust me.
-
-
Shane Lowrey
Circumcision, genital mutalation, is wrong.
At least as an adult, it's would be the persons choice. No one else has the right.
-
The Doctor
indeed the jewish people for example could simply say ok we now do it at 18 along with the bar mitzvah. they need to adapt to the modern times and align these with the accepted age of adulthood.
-
-
Br. Karsten Johansson
Why is it always "your right" to impose religious ideals onto a child who clearly doesn't understand, let alone the capacity to agree or disagree with those religious beliefs? That same child should have every right to choose their own religion, and forcing the mark of your religion on them is tantamount to sin.
A couple weeks ago, the provincial government in Nova Scotia, Canada banned the declawing of cats because of the "unnecessary pain." Why are we more protective of destructive pets than we are of innocent boys who may or may not prefer keeping their foreskin once they reach an age to understand both it and the religious attachment (or detachment, as the case may be) to it?
-
The Doctor
Declawing is vile. if people cant deal with cats scratching they can just not keep cats. Its just as vile as circumcision.
-
-
Rob
It seems that one of the main issues is the child's right but what if the boy or girl ( less of a chance I agree) chooses to be circumcised where is his or her rights then. I realize that 8 days old is maybe a little young to make that decision but what of a boy of eight or ten or twelve by saying he has to wait until he is 18 is not giving him the right to choose it is taking it away as much as doing the deed at birth. He has no right either way by what everyone is saying he only has rights after an arbitrary age. I am circumcised at birth more because it was the normal practice in the US. They claim that males circumcised are more likely not to have medical issues with their sex organ. I will admit I have thought what if I was not cut would it have made a difference.
-
Rob
as far as the argument there can never be a jewish community without circumcision I would say the jewish religion is much richer and there is so much more to it them the tip of ones penis. The Jewish community survived when Russia put a ban on circumcision many years ago. So it would thrive and flourish if one was to begin in Iceland. But personally, I believe practicing Jewish families should be able to continue the practice. Life is not safe at lease if one is live one instead of just existing. If you are just existing by all means "safe" your life away but you will never know the richness of life and all it difference.
-
The Doctor
Frankly I think the jewish faith is due for a modern update starting with them ending circumcision or teaching boys they are men when still children.
-
-
Mike Dubik
Circumcision is a procedure in search of a legitimate rationale.
Just like female circumcision, it started out as way to limit libidinous urges. Few would defend it for that purpose today.
The major reason it endures, is so that the son can look like the father. Also, a pretty weak argument.
As for preventing diseases, if you cur off an infant's earlobe, you reduce the chance of cancer of that earlobe to zero. Also, a pretty lame.
-
Jones
Put down the knife. Show me your hands! Step away from the children. get down on the ground. Do It Now. You are under arrest for child sexual mutilation, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, child abuse, conspiracy, assault with a weapon, and you best not add resisting arrest... If you know whats good for you.
Genital Mutilation is an individual choice at age 21 years old minimum.
Ritualized Child Sexual Mutilation is horrific, hurts children, and has been known to cause death to young boys and young girls.
PROTECT your children from crazy people armed with knives.
The CREATOR of the Cosmos takes no pleasure in the mutilation of children.
And if your god deity demands harm to children, time for you to go shopping for a nicer Deity !!!
-
Secretary3rd
Drip. Drip. Drip. Those that do not drip do not have yellow stains. Those that drip, do.
-
David C Bertiaume
Mixed emotions here. I am circumcised and have no memory of the event. (it was done because that was the "norm" at the time, not for religious reasons) Yes, I do agree that FGM is wrong and having said that I would say it would be hypocritical of me to say that male circumcision is ok. Also having said that, I am glad that I had a circumcision. Evidence suggests that it inhibits the transmission of certain STD's. If that's true, it would seem that it shouldn't be something we reject out of hand. There were many things in the Old Testament that were required (midwives and mother only near babies, stay away from pork and shellfish which spoil and need to be well cooked!) which in retrospect helped prevent the spread of disease at the time, whether these are still applicable today with our increased awareness of hygiene is another matter. It should be talked about but one point I would like to make is that unlike FGM, my circumcision has never made sexual congress painful or something to be avoided.
-
-
Rev Ned
It is genital mutilation and should be banned.
-
Ron
The liberals are fierce proponents of abortion rights claiming a woman's right to choose. But if that choice is to have an raise the baby the same liberals now want to take any choice as to how the baby is raised away from the parents. I guess the only believe in a parents right to choose when it agrees with there agenda.
-
The Doctor
Mutilation is not something any parent has a right to do to a child, its child abuse purely.
-
John Owens
But women have a right to have them mutilated and torn out of them.
-
-
It's a barbaric practice that has no reasoning in the modern world.....would we be accommodating of ritual sacrifice of humans, or even animals, if the religion demanded it??? Absolutely not, and neither should we allow mutilation of an child for any reason!
That's a very tolerant and Godly reply. You should be proud of yourself. BTW, nice straw man with the "human sacrifice" bit. Nobody is suggesting human sacrifice and animal sacrifice is not illegal. So since Katelynne Victoria Shouse thinks something is wrong that has been practiced by a faith for millennium the entire Jewish religion should fall to its knees and comply? You sure do have one massive, overblown ego there Katelynne. As soon as you make piercing and tattooing for no reason but decorative illegal then come talk to me. As soon as you make implants, liposuction and other "mutilations" as well as those required by transgenderism illegal, again call me. You have absolutely no right to pass judgment on the religious rites of another faith especially since it's been around since the beginning of history.
Where do you pompous people come from?
Tattoos, implant, piercings,etc are a persons choice and they have to consent. FGM and MGM are performed on children that do not consent because they are Children. If they want FGM and MGM when they are grown and able to consent as an adult then so be it, its their informed choice.
@ Rev Hoagie As an adult if you want to have a part of your body removed, I think you should be able to do it. However, in the same way that tattooing your child's body should be illegal, I can see no justification for foreskin or clitoris removal. I don't see how we can pitch millions of years of evolution against an Iron Age superstition. As for the justification that millions of Jews do - the removal of clitorises is justified in a religion with 1,000 times more followers, by your logic we should all support female genital mutilation too. In parts of Africa albino babies are killed at birth - probably adhered to by far more people than the number of Jews, I assume you support that too. In living memory Chinese girls had their feet bound, I guess you would have been against its prohibition too?
Drip. Drip. Drip. Yellow stains. Yellow stains. Yellow stains. Oh! Terrible on you. Ask your girlfriend or wife what she would rather have yellow stains on the underwear or not. When you die and in Heaven everyone will see the ones who drip and us who do not. Ha! Ha!
Rev. Hoagie????? You should stick to sandwiches, there is no massive, overblown ego involved other than the person advocating we should tolerate genital mutilation of children because "God wills it!" This has been the war cry of religious nuts since time immemorial, and we are not living in the dark ages anymore.
And you have the Gall to call yourself a Reverand? Child abuse in any form has no place in this world. As a Clinical Psychologist, I see the aftermath of this abuse every day.
I agree with you
Yet how many babies are executed and removed from the mothers womb in the name of womans rights... AHA
The one thing everyone either conveniently forgets or chooses to ignore is this: Anti-abortion laws affect the working poor, never the rich!!! They simply go to Europe, and take care of things! No law is a good law if it cannot be universally enforced. So while I have thoughts and feelings about both sides and points of view, this abortion debate will not end in our lifetime!!!