According to a recent study by the American Academy of Pediatricians, more parents are refusing to vaccinate their kids than ever before. Although there is a consensus from medical experts on the benefits of vaccines, many parents have become suspicious of them.
Kristen O'Meara was one of those parents for years, she was staunchly against vaccines. Before her kids were born, she did lots of research about them online. The Chicago mother, like many other concerned parents, came to the conclusion that vaccines actually do more harm than good. Acting on her beliefs, she didn't allow her children to be vaccinated.
The Wake-Up Call
Then, everything changed. The wake-up call came when her three kids suddenly contracted Rotavirus, an acute stomach virus that can be deadly in certain cases. Fortunately, outbreaks are quite uncommon in developed countries because we have a vaccine to prevent them. Of course, O'Meara's children never got the vaccine before long, both she and her husband had also contracted Rotavirus. O'Meara slowly came to frightening realization: by refusing to vaccinate her children, she ended up putting the entire family in danger.
Regret
O'Meara recalled experiencing the first flickers of doubt and regret as she listened to her young daughters cry out while doubled over in pain. As the disease ran its course over a span of three excruciating weeks, she began to feel overwhelming guilt.
Before the disease struck, O'Meara admitted that she "secretly felt superior to others" for refusing to vaccinate. She looked down on other parents for being blind, uninformed, and "just sheep following the herd". She confessed thinking to herself, "let someone else take on the risks of vaccinating". Looking back, she concedes, this viewpoint was "very selfish".
Call to Action
And now, O'Meara has decided to speak out, encouraging anti-vax parents everywhere to rethink their stances. She encourages others to look past the "intentional bias of the anti-vax reports" and let go of their fear about vaccines. No matter your stance on this issue, it takes courage for someone to come forward in front of the national media and admit that they made a mistake.
Jenny McCarthy
Of course, plenty of people remain unconvinced that vaccines are completely safe. For years, former Playboy model and actress Jenny McCarthy has led an anti-vaccine crusade. She first began speaking out after her son was diagnosed with autism in 2007. McCarthy started promoting the idea that the mercury in vaccines causes autism and it quickly took hold. However, numerous studies concluded that there is little evidence linking vaccines and autism. After much public backlash, McCarthy's wounded reputation took another hit when she lost her coveted position on The View due to her anti-vaccine stance.
The Anti-Vax Argument
Aside from the autism link, those opposed to vaccines provide several additional arguments to support their case. They insist that the plethora of vaccines which doctors recommend can overwhelm a child's immune system thus putting them at risk. They also advocate for "natural" immunity, a theory that the immune system will become stronger if allowed to fight off diseases instead of being vaccinated against them entirely. The medical community has repeatedly dismissed these arguments, but rising vaccine refusal rates indicate that many parents find them convincing.
Religious Exemptions
The issue gets increasingly muddled when religious objections are introduced. In 47 states, it is legal to refuse vaccination on religious grounds. However, none of the major religions profess formal anti-vaccination stances (although certain independent sects have differing views). As such, most religious organizations - ULC included - do not provide exemptions to their members. Interestingly, studies show that religious exemptions are most commonly sought by people whose objections are philosophical in nature, not religious. It seems that many people see claiming a religious exemption as the easiest way to work around vaccination laws.
Herd Immunity
One of the primary arguments made by vaccine supports revolves around the concept of "herd immunity". This applies when a majority of people become immune to a particular contagious disease, thus preventing it from spreading throughout the population. It is, by far, the most effective method for preventing large outbreaks of disease. Vaccines provide herd immunity but only if people agree to get vaccinated. By refusing to do so, those opposed to vaccines are endangering more than just themselves.
Negative Side Effects
However, vaccines are not a cure-all solution. Sometimes, they can fail. A person may think they are protected, when in fact the immunization did not work. There are also unintended side-effects. While these are generally mild, some people can have severe reactions to vaccines. In that sense, those who oppose them may have a legitimate gripe pro-vaccination arguments often gloss over these downsides.
Takeaways
Opponents believe that vaccines are harmful. Advocates point out that the consequences of not getting vaccinated can be much worse. Ultimately, this issue may come down to a question of responsibility. As citizens of a larger community, should we be looking out for ourselves, or are we responsible for the safety of those around us, too?
Where do you stand on the issue of vaccines? Do parents have a right to refuse vaccinations for their kids?
207 comments
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Christian
God loves you and Yes you can ! Always Trust God.
No Vaccines until after age 18 years old.
The brain is still developing & you still risk harm to your teen's fertility, but at age 18 they have the legal right to pick what they want or reject what they want.
Until then, it is your responsibility to protect your children from Big Pharma trying to exploit them for quick profits $$$$.
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Michael
when it comes to vaccines, if you consume any mass farmed food of any kind meat or grain you need them to protect yourself from the poisons in the food, that also goes for all processed foods as well. If you consume these foods, you are compromising your body’s natural ability to defend itself period. And the government will not admit or even investigate allegations of harmful substances in our food and drinking water, they will just say it’s at acceptable levels. So if you take your health in your own hands and refuse to take the vaccines and consume these foods you will only harm yourself and those you love.
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Kristy Blankenship
It does not matter what or where you stand, I believe that whoever you believe if your maker has final say no matter what. We are but a "Blueprint" of plan that was made before anyone of us were born, the trials and tribulations everything. And in the end we shall all stand before the only person who can judge us. So live your life as you'd expect to be treated, pass no judgment onto others that might not have the same views as you. Because through everything we may never know why things happen or are the way they are but you have to believe that it is meant to teach us good even if we think it's wrong. The only thing I can say for sure is we all bleed RED, so how different are we really¿?¿ Blessed be to all....
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John Owens
I have to say that I am in agreement with most of your post (all that falls within my narrow sphere of knowledge), and I am open to the rest. As to the last paragraph-- WAAYYY too accurate. I think myself as guilty as others. Tolerance and understanding are lacking in a major way, and those who think they are enlightened are as intolerant or moreso, than those they ridicule.
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Michael Demers
I had wondered why this topic became a thread in the "Blog". A little research gave some clarity; the ULC is partnered with the National Autism Association and donates time and money. The National Autism Association is PRO-vaccine. The ULC in it's position statement says; "to do that what is right" and therefore asks it's membership to do the same by donating. What is truly amazing is that the ULC claims to "recognize the IMPORTANCE of maintaining open hearts and minds, embraces ANY INDIVIDUAL NO MATTER his or her spiritual background" (capitalization is mine) and welcomes all individuals, who choose "to become a member of this family of faith" Hmmmm; what then is it, that is juxtapose in the church's mission statement to allow spiritual expression and social justice?
We are talking "vaccine". A topic that has generated controversy in California (see SB 277) and it's implication nationally by appeal to the US Supreme Court. Let's truly look at this and know as individuals living in this world, that as soon as a voice is raised it will generate opposition. it's a fact of the dualism most of us inter-spond to. In that regard, it can be looked at by the motivation of those who pursue such causes. In this case vaccine. The majority of the world public know nothing of the true-motivations of the behind the scenes global-corporate or regulatory professional organizations that oversee their own financial status.
This includes the World Health Organization, NATO, the World Food Bank, The American Medical Association and it's spin-offs or even what many call the "alternative health care-INDUSTRY, yes; INDUSTRY.Research is fraudulent. Research papers are fraudulent. Journalism is fraudulent. Banks are fraudulent. Government is fraudulent. Corporations are fraudulent and their profits can we say are based on greed and "Vaccine"; well seriously are you the reader in their normal day life going to base your decision on vaccination on what you think you know. You know nothing of how disease is caused and nothing in the slightest to how it will be cured.....
So as the ULC heralds in it's mission statement, we as a membership, a family; support each-other in our expression as long as it does not infringe upon the rights or freedoms of others.... please share with me why this thread and topic of vaccine has appeared here. What is the behind the scenes motivation of the church and the Board of the National Autism Association in respect to all of us.
I am perplexed with all the hate and anger thrown at each other here.... where is the freedom of the true spiritual expression; where is the healing of the spiritual journey in this membership?? Fraudulent.
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Fay Fleming
fay
I am also amazed at this level of hostility. I am very much in favor of vaccination. I myself had Polio as a child and am suffering with the affects still. I had a very dear friend who also had had Polio as a child and was left with many problems associated with such, sadly he died at the start of this year. I also have a sister whose son died at the age of 14 due to a very horrific disease called Sub Acute Sclerosing Pan-Encephalitis (SSPE) caused by the Measles. This is the only way this horrid disease can be contracted and it is fatal, the only question is time. My sisters son suffered for 7years before he died. It is a gradual sclerosing of the brain so the sufferer becomes totally dependent. Please people look it up, Then talk to someone that has had polio, maybe then you will see why I am in favour of vaccination.
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John Owens
The statistical evidence generally presented would indicate that vaccines are a benefit to the population as a whole, but statistics, like polls, can be biased and are difficult to parse and verify. Anecdotal evidence, which is hard to fake and can be verified on a case-by-case basis, shows that some vaccines do more harm than good, as in the flu vaccines. My father was military, so as a child, I received the vaccines common to anyone in the service or travelling abroad in the late 1950s. Since then I have received a few tetanus shots, but not for the last 30 years or so. On the whole, I am healthier than those near me who get the latest and greatest vaccine every year, and I'm about 10 years older or more. That's anecdotal I know, but observable. It's extremely gullible to refuse to believe what one sees with their own eyes, and believe the word of strangers which is contrary to one's own observations.
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JoEtta Yeary Macera
I am not only a pastor but a naturopathic doctor; vaccines have changed and not necessarily for the better. If your child is healthy and I do mean organic foods; good water; no junk then the pH is at a rate where you will not need a vaccine. That is the plain simple truth. We should be back to basics body, mind and spirit.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Since when did having a different opinion on medical treatments and who to believe become so contentious that we start calling each other names? Isn't the point of interfaith practice to respect others view points and not mandate your own?
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Athena
NO... It has been shown that we can NOT trust our medical system to protect us re vaccinations. So , your kids get sick and you get scared, and fall back on "societal safety"? We can not even trust what is actually in the vaccines, all those added ingredients, like mercury to prolong shelf-life??? Really ??? Probably still in the vaccines, unless you know enough to ask for "without mercury please"... Parents should ALWAYS have the right to say whether THEIR CHILDREN are vaccinated or not ... NO one else is going to take responsibility for the coma's , brain damage, death caused directly from vaccinations ..Let alone any future, long term possible damage to show up later..... Oh well, so it was YOUR CHILD , collateral damage ...oh well >>>??? not to mention the huge PROFITs made by these pharmaceutical companies... BIG MONEY ..... dividends.... Pharmaceuticals .... the leading cause of death in America .... HELLO ... And you trust who ?
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Minister Norm Gold
To those still anti - immunization because of the mercury in the shots lading to autism - doesn't it mean anything to you that the British doctor that originally published his "research" which led to the initial scare, and to this ridicuous and dangerous movement - has lost his medical license and is in jail for fraud? Do you know why? because he was trying to sell a product that he developed on his own which he hoped would compete with the government sanctioned vaccines. That's exactly what happened. One man's greed led to so very many children getting sick, and even dying. Yet despite all this coming out in the independent media, there are still so many ignorant fools like the lady famous for her nude layouts (yeah, there's a great source for scientific knowledge and debate...) who insist on still touting the original "research", long since debunked and defamed.....and to ignore the HUNDREDS of scientific studies which prove that vaccinations are safe.
For those of you potentially hurting our kids and grandkids by not vaccinating yours, maybe you should join a very old organization. It's called the "Flat Earth Society". It actually exists. And it's a perfect fit for ignoramuses like you.
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Daniel
Again you like to muddy the waters . No one said mercury therefore autism We said mercury BAD No mercury GOOD I know you can't argue the points so you go on tangents
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Daniel
This coming from a man that won't put his money where his mouth is. You are a doctor not a virologist or geneticist or any other speciality to give you authority to speak about vaccine safety. You had a class or two on vaccinations and browsed some literature included with the vaccines that you administered.
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Kathleen
The doctor about whom you speak is Dr. Andrew Wakefield. He is not in jail for fraud. He lives in the US a free man. He has been exonerated by the British Medical Journal he published in as well. Brian Deer was paid to defame him by Rupert Murdoch and his son. Brian Deer has disappeared from society, and Poal Thorsen (who is not a scientist but a psychiatrist) is a criminal and fugitive. Dr. Wakefield's research concluded that further research needed to be conducted as the MMR seemed to be linked to the bowel disease that children with autism presented with. That is all. He was purposefully defamed, and his co-author has been exonerated. Dr. Wakefield has filed a lawsuit against Deer, et. al. I have attached the link here. Stop speading rumors about something you don't know about.
http://www.ebcala.org/areas-of-law/vaccine-law/co-author-of-lancet-mmr-autism-study-exonerated-on-all-charges-of-professional-misconduct
Our pharmaceutically-owned media does not choose to cover truth. Our media covers advertisers customer relations pieces. Shame on you, Dr. Gold, for spreading more bought information. I wonder how much you profit from the pharmaceutical industry?
Dr. Wakefield is touring with the #vaxxed bus nationwide. There are over 2,000 names on that bus currently of people and who have been vaccine injured.
If you want to research doctors who are "trying to sell a product that he developed on his own which he hoped would compete with the government sanctioned vaccines" you should research Dr. Paul Offit. He talks alot of trash about vaccines, and proposes that it is safe to administer 10,000 to an infant, and he is profitting heavily off of his Rotovirus vaccine. There are also many government officials who have worked for the CDC and the NIH, and who have begun working for the pharmaceutical industry.
I wonder why this Universal Life Monastery has chosen this particular article and topic to post here and now? Why not post about all of the deadly vaccine adverse events that happen on a daily basis? Has anyone bothered to look at VAERS? I am very concerned about the Universal Life Monastery at this time.
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Bob Anderson
You don't want to vaccinate your children? Cool. Just keep them away from other children. I am all for parents following their belief system. but don't expect me and mine to suffer for your actions.
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A. Selah
How would you and yours suffer if you are vaccinated? Wouldn't YOU be safe and the unvaccinated be unsafe?
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John Owens
Exactly.
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Daniel
Your children have the magic vaccine so what would they have to fear. If anything your germ carrying child would be a threat to my child's health
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Brother John
Disturbing information is often discarded as "conspiracy theory", sometimes for good reasons, sometimes because we "can't handle the truth". There is much readily available information regarding the benefits of vaccines. Some skepticism is advised simply due to the immense profits for the manufacturers who promote their use. But there are other reasons to be skeptical and explore both sides of the immunization issue. There is also much information indicating that vaccines have been developed, and administered, for the purpose of depopulation. The article at the bottom has links to verifying information. Consider the following quotes before exploring the article.
“Depopulation should be the highest priority of foreign policy towards the third world, because the US economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries”. – Henry Kissinger
“World population needs to be decreased by 50%”. – Henry Kissinger
“The elderly are useless eaters”. – Henry Kissinger
The first of the “new 10 commandments” on the Georgia Guidestones (research on your own) “Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.”
CNN Founder Ted Turner: “A total world population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.”
David Rockefeller: “The negative impact of population growth on all of our planetary ecosystems is becoming appallingly evident.”
Professor of Biology at the University of Texas at Austin Eric R. Pianka: “I do not bear any ill will toward people. However, I am convinced that the world, including all humanity, WOULD clearly be much better off without so many of us.”
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger: “All of our problems are the result of overbreeding among the working class” “The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.”
David Brower, the first Executive Director of the Sierra Club: “Childbearing [should be] a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license … All potential parents [should be] required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing.”
Jacques Costeau: “In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it is just as bad not to say it.”
https://tabublog.com/2015/04/13/bill-gates-vaccines-depopulation-agenda-the-message-cannot-get-any-clearer/
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John Owens
Brother John,
Thank you for posting those globalist quotes. I would hope that some of the trend-following lefties in here would research those quotes and those individuals quoted. Of course they will not, because they reject truth so they can believe their lies, but it seems they would at least consider this: IF there are people in power who believe these things, then surely they will work to make them occur.
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Irene
I for one choose not to Vac. Because everytime I did, my kid almost died. I don't tell others what to do, but I read that the percentages of vac. Helping people does not Compare to those who have died, and or gotten the very illness they were trying to prevent From getting.
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Daniel
I hope you sued and got compensation for that tragic event . It takes courage to say no to authority. Defying authority used to be a precious quality. It seems the government fears those who choose to think for themselves. Its a shame it was a respected quality that shaped this country
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steve r. yeager
It has been proven scientifically that immunizing children is beneficial to the child and the community at large. So-called studies that refute this have been disproven time and time again by credible medical organizations. To not immunize children is no different than allowing them to play in traffic based on your faith that they will not get hit because they haven't been hit before. Time is the great equalizer and eventually a case of mumps or measles or worse that infects a child will prove that it is better that they not get infected. Remember, there is no credible scientifically proven study that connects autism or any other malady with being immunized. We must move past this misguided, celebrity-driven thought pattern and allow good science and good health practice to be the standard by which we decde what is right. Sincerely, Steve R. Yeager, Pittsburgh, PA.
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Daniel
Herd immunity vs the health and welfare of a single child ? Hmmmm Not a difficult choice for me The decision against experimentation on my children with toxic substances and animal genetic material . Hmmmm Not a difficult choice
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Please listen to Dr. Tenpenny as she explains the CDC tests results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VwVBmx0Ng
I'm not asking you to change you mind, just suggesting you get some facts directly from the CDC's papers.
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Daniel
There has never been a double blind study showing the efficacy of immunizations nor had there been any study as to the side effects . You do realize that toxic levels of substances (by governmental standards) are in vaccines. You do realize that foreign genetic material is introduced into the human genome by way of vaccines? You would think it unnecessary to include mercury aluminum and formaldehyde need be inside something we inject into our children. I think it about time that individuals start to think for themselves If you and others did you would demand safe less toxic vaccines
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Rev. Don
Daniel, Do you know that you take in animal genetic material everytime you eat a cheeseburger?
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Daniel
It's a little different. It's not Incorporated into viral vectors and injected . But thanks for the useless comment
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John Owens
You have to admit that Daniel's certainly correct there, Don. The body can handle a lot of things through the digestive tract that it cannot if the same thing is injected, particularly if it has specifically been modified.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Steve R. Yeager, this is for you:
Experts voice doubts about the effectiveness and safety of vaccines, call for more study http://www.naturalhealth365.com/vaccine-dangers-1992.html
J. Anthony Morris, Ph.D, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist at the US FDA, states, “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good.”
Bernadine Healy, M.D., former director of the NIH and a past president of the American Red Cross: “There are unanswered questions about vaccine safety….public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis (linking vaccines with harm) as irrational without sufficient studies of causation.” “The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization…There is no scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease,” – Dr. Mendelsohn
As Russell Blaylock, M.D., a former clinical assistant professor of neurosurgery at the University of Mississippi Medical Center, explains it, “Vaccines shift your immune system to an immune suppression type of state called the TH2 shift…. a weaker, antibody type immune system… Then, everyone becomes more susceptible [to infectious diseases]… and no one is talking about that. Now, a lot of scientists know that, but they are afraid to speak out because their careers would be ruined.”
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rch
Speaking as a retired Pediatrician, I assert that the single most important benefit we Pediatricians give to our patients is immunization and protection against preventable diseases. As an example, I invite the nay-sayers to travel in countries that were late in receiving polio vaccine, to see the numerous crippled adults and "crawlers" who had polio infections in their youth. Massive "Thanks!" to Rotary International for initiating the PolioPlus campaign and seeing it through to near-completion today. I invite them to see the many blind, deaf, retarded children with rubella syndrome we cared for before the vaccine (the "R" in MMR). I invite them to visit children's hospital wards before the 1950's to see kids dying with measles encephalitis, about a 1/500-1000 incidence from that "ordinary childhood illness." Thanks to the Gates Fdn and others for their world-wide programs for rubeola. Mumps (the other "M" in MMR) was once a leading cause of deafness and infertility in later life. How about the numerous seniors suffering from life-changing shingles which is readily preventable with immunization? In my entire career the most miserable and suffering patients I ever cared for were feverish infants with whooping cough who couldn't eat, sleep, and often not survive (DPT vaccine). Most doctors of my generation and later have never seen diphtheria and tetanus infections (DPT vaccine), which I'm sure rank as two most awful ways to die for both adults and children. I rest my case. . . . (the misunderstanding of vaccine liability protection laws from some respondents is astounding)
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Daniel
I will consent for you to give my children immunizations if you sign a legal document denying the coverage that the federal government gives doctors indemnifying them from vaccine related injuries and if you put it in your will that your estate is responsible in the case of your death
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Daniel
PS Arguments from authority that rely upon a different set of curcumanstances to make your argument fail before you even make it
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Ian Patten
Okay, you have made a choice for your children's health. I sincerely hope that it works out and really do wish you all the best. The toughest thing about this is that both sides of the argument have valid points about risks. There are risks in vaccinating and there are risks in not vaccinating and at the end of the day, it's a decision about what holds the greater risk. I have my own opinion, as do all others that have been involved in this discussion. It is apparent that minds will not be changed here. Good luck to you and your family.
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Daniel
I find it curious that you won't backup your assertions with personal responsibility. The genetic experiments using animal proteins and DNA seem to be a far greater risk
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rch
Daniel, you must study the vaccine liability legislation to understand it better.
The legislation recognizes that an infinitesimally small percentage of immunized people will have an adverse reaction to vaccines. In the past the only mechanism available for compensation for damages was a law suit against the vaccine manufacturer and the practitioner. The process was adversarial, lengthy, very expensive, and extremely painful for the injured party and family. The legislation allows compensation for damages without legal action.
The legislation indemnifies everyone in the immunization chain, not just doctors. It protects nurses, doctors, hospitals, pharmacies, public health clinics, charitable organizations --- in short, anyone who administers or manufactures or markets the vaccine.
Finally, the legislation reduces the cost of health care. The extensive costs of defending law suits, both the legitimate and the unwarranted ones, is not added to the expense of producing and administering vaccines. The cost of liability coverage is subsequently reduced, an expense of doing business that is rolled into the cost of health care.
I hope this facilitates understanding of the real world of health care delivery.
rch
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Daniel
I do understand that without the government protecting you and your assets against liability that you wouldn't be so eager to administer toxins and foreign genetic material into a helpless child.
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Daniel
I really take offense at the twisted way you attempt to justify doing something that may harm a child for the greater good of the herd
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Lou Anne McKeefery
When children got chickenpox we adults got our booster. Why do we not see typhoid when there was no vaccine?
The polio vaccine in the US is 2 types of virus because the 3rd type caused Acute Flaccid Paralysis (AFP) The 3 virus vaccine is used in those countries with the crippled children and is being phased out.
And whooping cough on the rise because of the vaccine: http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm
I guess I got off easily, along with my entire elementary school who naturally got measles, mumps and rubella along with chickpox in the 50s because none of us died, nope not one funeral. There was one child who drowned in the summer though.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
It's most likely the child got sick from the vaccinated neighbor: http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm This vaccination causes typhoid Mary's all around us.
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Rev. Don
Dr Rauck,
It was a pleasure to see reality enter into this discussion. Thank you for your service in public health.
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John Owens
As if you know anything about reality.
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Russell
Science fact, there are NO gold standard scientific studies NONE, so if you can site and independent peer journal (not written in the States), with references, studies that have been done with a large number of people, for 5 years or more, let me know, otherwise you are voicing your opinion. At least know your sources and facts. Until more people realize that it's all about MONEY, why do you think the powers that be are working on MAKING everyone take them?
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Your are so correct Russell. I got wise when CA mandated vaccinations for school and included Hep B which is not a communicable disease. That didn't make sense to need for school. That made me follow the money.
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Rev. Don
Hep B is transferred by exposure to the blood of an infected person with measureable viral load counts.
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Richard James Clay
The child or children of any parent who does not receive all the appropriate vaccines should be expelled from school, or at the very least, isolated from other children. People's "beliefs" are what screws up this world and this country. "Believe" what you want, but when your imaginary scenarios begin to affect me, back-off!
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Daniel
Your child and everyother child in the school has had the "magic" immunization. They are protected. The only person "at risk" are those children whose patents don't immunize . What is your logic to exclude those unvaccinated? I'm eager to hear your reasoning
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Daniel
Everyone's imaginary scenario affects everyone else. Religious belief for one has great impact on society. The one in particular that teaches that doing wrong to someone else can be magically erased by mumbling a few hail Marys rather than instructing them to apologize to those they have wronged and attempt to make amends. Or those who rely upon an ancient fairytale to justify discriminate against the LGBT community . Or those that use their fiction to justify taking rights away from women to control their bodies .(Please don't argue ....80% of pregnancies spontaneously abort on their own so it would seem to be a process that the genocidal war god favors)
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RJ
Daniel please provide me with a link to where you got your fact that 80% of pregnancies spontaneously abort.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Of the most recent mump cases 100% were vaccinated so who should be expelled?
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John Owens
You are totally indoctrinated into the mainstream BS, Richard. Your attitude is one of superiority, which is another word for bigotry. Nothing at all is ever done outside of "beliefs". You believe in the Establishment, apparently. Your beliefs affect others around you. You are no more enlightened than anyone else here, and to think you are is vanity.
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Daniel
The easiest way to understand what youbare doing is by way of analogy. A vaccine with a 1 in a million mortality rate ..... Picture one million guns lined up 999,999 have a spray that let's them live longer . One has a bullet that will end one child's life. Herd immunity is just that. One child dies and thousands get hurt so the majority can benefit. I doubt the benefit I understand I do not want the one with the bullet or the ones that misfire and disable my children . Who wants to play Russian roulette with their children. One caveat is that this magic spray has future unknown side effects. Its a complex issue that I've done my homework with and make informed decisions . I resist to accept your position since its biased to put a child with a loaded gun to his head without informing those parents of this possibility
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virginia feldman
I've worked in India & other nations, before & after they could afford some vaccines. I've seen kids die of polio, and diphtheria, and tetanus, and measles. Very few people bother to learn the skills to look at the Internet with the proper skeptical eye. Or how to look at a 'scientific' study to see its deep methodological flaws, which make its conclusions invalid. Or to read newspapers (including your own article, stating "SOME people have severe reactions to vaccines") which, in their attempts to make interesting reading, present both sides of a debate as equally valid. (When the rate of serious adverse effects ranges from 1/100,000 to 1 1,1,000,000). You UL writers also have to learn how to 'umlump' the human tendency to lump --making statements such as "pro-vaccine arguments OFTEN gloss over these downsides." Often???- all vaccines require a signed consent form, which states exactly the rate of side effects. Pediatricians are all taught the Risks-vs.-Benefits approach to counseling. But--we're too late, because our patients have already read the Internet. Dr. Ginny Feldman
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Daniel
I fortunately do not live in a third world country and have access to clean eater inspected food and sanitary conditions . I also have access to medical care to mitigate any infection if it does happen to my children . So your comparison is flawed. Herd immunity and the grandest slipshot genetic experiment in the history of mankind make my choice appropriate. If I lived in a third world country then yeah let's do something short of rebuilding the entire nation over from scratch. What I'm saying is the cost benefit ( if any cause ive seen outbreaks among the vaccinated) ratio for someone living in the USA makes my choice clear. I don't vaccinate my children
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Daniel
One last comment . If you could can you please show a double blind study (and I'm not talking about studies with multiple vaccinations ) that demonstrates that the vaccines are effective and a breakdown where the health issues of injecting animal DNA and other toxins into our genome is harmless ? I understand heard immunity . I do also understand that the science is not as sound or harmless as pharmaceutical companies would have us believe. Corporate greed and a complicit government do not in any way quell my fears
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John Fiedler
There woll never be a double blind stidy. In order for that to happen, youd have to have consent to infect children with a disease to study them.
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Daniel
No . All that is required is a group of people willing to get shots that either have the vaccine or don't have it . The people won't know if their child have the vaccine or not and then each family would report any infection (like measles) if the study was done with that immunization. No one would be infected the ignorance of having the "magic" immunization is all that would be required
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RJ
What? How exactly would you persuade a parent to participate in such a study? Well Mrs Jones, we are going to give her child a shot. If your child happens to get measles, mumps, polio, what ever, then please let us know. we can then look up whether or not your child got the vaccine. Then we will know if it works or not. Sorry, your child contracted polio and will never walk again, but at least we now know that they are effective.
Now look at it from the other side. If your child develops any problems, then let us know and we check. If he got the vaccine, then we will know they are bad. I am sorry your child now has these health issues for the rest of thier life, but at least we know.
Please use my child for human experimentation.
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Daniel
Physicians don't care of the cost benefit ratio. They are held harmless for any immediate adverse effects and any long term effects . My doctor was comfortable not giving vaccinations to my children until he joined a group that insisted unpon forced immunization or expulsion from the practice . He kicked my children out for not complying with his corporate owners wishes. He disagreed but respected my decision until he had no choice from his boss to disrespect it
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Lou Anne McKeefery
That's very interesting Daniel, I wonder how many other MDs are facing the same threat. Since insurance companies give bonuses when over 60% of your 2 and under patients are fully vaccinated on schedule more and more will dismiss us in order to reap their hansom bonus.
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RJ
Lou Anne, please prove your statement. Show me proof that insurance companies give bonuses when over 60% of your 2 and under patients are fully vaccinated on schedule. If you can show me irrefutable proof that this is true, I will never subject my child to a vaccine shot again.
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Rev. Don
An excellent commentary. "I read it on the Internet so it must be true" is trumped by true facts rather than fringe hyperboles.
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John Owens
Your own vocabulary is filled with hyperboles.
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John Owens
and you made a reference to trump that was a Freudian slip, I guess.
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openyoueyes
Have you had your booster shots? Have you had TDaP? MMR? What is stopping you? The vaccines you got as a child are long worn off by now and you are just as susceptible to these diseases as those who aren't vaccinated. Vaccines wear off- that is a fact-- go get more...
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Rose
I feel this article was very bias toward vaccines and comments had many hints of people being very judgement. I am an RN with a very strong science background. My first 2 boys are vaccinated and one had difficulty with ADD symptoms. My third boy was a train reck. Had some initial vaccines. Really messed him up. Lived st Children's Hospital. I vaccinated for the "social responsibility" aspect initially. All of my children had learning issues. I have spent thousands of dollars on healing my children. I am now an alternative/energetic medicine practitioner and work with a wide range of issues and diseases. Toxicity IS really beloved people. Mercury IS one of the most potent neurological toxins on the earth. Why would we inject this into our bodies! Many people are not against the vaccine concept... just against the other toxic substances in vaccines. Some people have genetic predispositions which cannot tolerate the extra burden put on the body by vaccines. Instead of judging and criticizing them open your hearts and minds to find alternative ways that might work for everyone. I pray everyone who is healthy feels infinitely grateful that they and their family are blessed beyond belief. I thank God for the journey the toxicity has put me on. It has made me incredibly open to all thoughts and possibilities. It opened up a whole new concept of healing to me. I am non judgemental of people and their journeys/challenges. I invite all to join this wonderful ride!
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A. Selah
Thank you, Rose! I love your response! You are absolutely correct in pointing out ALTERNATIVE ways of healing and remaining healthy. They do exist, but most either don't realize that they do or don't believe that they are effective. It just takes a little research. I too am a Practitioner of alternative healing modalities and proponent of natural living. I also agree that we must learn to practice non-judgement of an individual's decisions for choosing what they feel is best for their life path and journey, as well as, that of whom they are responsible for. Peace & Blessings to you and yours.
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Gary
You put all of us at risk by refusing vaccinations. Many parents are too young to remember the days before vaccinations were available. They also allow these diseases to mutate and eventually bypass the vaccinations. The same is happening with the over use of antibiotics. As for the rise in autism, maybe it is because with advances in medicine, we can diagnose it better.
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Daniel
Actually no we don't. You can still have the "magic" shot that protects you from those diseases. It is the ones that don't have this magic shot that are at risk. But they or their parents accept this risk just as yours accepted the risk associated with giving you mercury and animal DNA
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John Owens
I've said that for years, Daniel. If they think the shots are so wonderful, what are they worried about? If my kid gets sick because I didn't allow a stranger to inject them with mystery substance, it shouldn't be a problem for their child, since they DID allow strangers to inject them. What contradictory thinking!
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biblical scholar
My child has an auto-immune disorder and cannot get vaccinated. That also makes him highly susceptible to anything he comes in contact with. He is literally at the mercy of those around him. If someone like you were to even walk on the same block as my child insisting that it's your right to put him in danger, as a mother it would take all I have in me to not put you in danger. How dare you. You are incredibly selfish.
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John Owens
So, you don't think that a person who has been vaccinated can spread a disease to your child BECAUSE of their vaccination?
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John Owens
And isn't it "incredibly selfish" of YOU to think I should do something to MY child in order to protect YOURS? YOU are being selfish in this case.
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John Owens
Should I take food from my child so yours can eat, or take my child's kidney so yours can have one? My child is my responsibility. Yours is yours. I will help when I can, but first I must care for my own. You think everyone else should care for yours at the EXPENSE of their own. YOU, Julia, are incredibly selfish.
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John Owens
Julia never answered this one.
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Jackie
i do not pretend to understand the "science" behind vaccinations but, it seems to me that it should be a families choice. i hear of schools threatening not to allow students to enroll (or stay enrolled) if they do not get a list of vaccines. IF the parents who wish to vaccinate their children do so, why are they so afraid of the children who are not vaccinated? IF they believe the vaccines work and are basicslly harmless to their child where is the problem? would not the vaccinated child be safe irregardless of those around them?
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Daniel
You hit the nail on the head. Those who are vaccinated aren't at risk . It is only those who aren't. So they discriminate against those parent that make informed decisions about their children . Schools in general have to allow for religious exemption in a bunch of states . Private one do not
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biblical scholar
I posted this in a previous comment but I can see it bears repeating. My child has an auto-immune disorder and cannot get vaccinated. That also makes him highly susceptible to anything he comes in contact with. He is literally at the mercy of those around him. If someone like you were to even walk on the same block as my child insisting that it’s your right to put him in danger, as a mother it would take all I have in me to not put you in danger. How dare you. You are incredibly selfish. Also, jackie, please refrain from using the non-word "irregardless."
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Paul R Walsh
As a child I was vaccinated for all the known childhood diseases (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) parents that don't believe in vaccinating their children are putting them at risk for medical issues down the line.
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John Owens
When I was a child, I had measles, mumps, and chickenpox. My family was military and believed in vaccines and my mother (may she rest peacefully) was a fervent believer in the medical establishment. I am now 59 and my own resistance to sickness seems to be greater than those around me who get flu shots and go to the doctor every time they get a sniffle. Some of my resistance is certainly genetic, some philosophical (a hearty attitude contributes to a hearty immune system), some due to diet (basically kosher without the rabbis' involvement), and some because I had the illnesses and was nursed through them. I think parents who blindly trust the medical establishment are insane.
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Daniel
Just as your parents took the risk of death , disability or sickness by giving you those magic immunizations we accept the risk of not giving our children those magic shots
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HeidiAnne Leon
i have 2 teenagers, and in my opinion I had them get the vaccine for them, because i didn't want them to get one of the diseases. My bio mom got polio before the vaccine was ever available, and she ended up having 13 operations, and had a lot of trouble walking because of this. I didn't want to take any chances. Furthermore, i didn't want to put any children, or any adults at risk, due to my not having my children vaccinated. I think parents should not just think of their own children, but how others could catch any of the diseases as well, if their own parents didn't have them vaccinated.
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Winston
60 nursing students were JUST instructed that mercury, vaccines, and "all those things" do NOT contribute to autism...they just for some reason make children regress at 12-18 months...LORD HELP US!!!!!!! Big pharma just wants to dumb everyone down. Requesting prayers to help me keep calm and quite so I can just finish this stupid class and become a nurse.
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Windsor Thompson, LTC, Army Nurse Corps
Study hard conspiracy theorist!
-CCRN sends
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John Owens
Wasn't it Jonas Salk who said we were beating the Russians in the Olympics because our vaccines were giving them tumors?
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Our polio vaccines in the 50s and 60s had the SV40 monkey virus in them which is found in 60% of our cancerous tumors.
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John Owens
Thank you. I couldn't recall the details, but remembered the gist. The fact is, it takes a lot of ignorant trust to allow strangers to inject substances which other strangers have created into your body.
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biblical scholar
I posted that as a joke.... I literally posted the least-informed thing I could possibly think of that went counter to all the research and you agreed with it... wow.
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John Owens
doesn't change the fact that one of the higher-ups in the SALK group DID joke that our athletes were beating the Russians because OUR vaccines that we gave them were causing cancer. WOW indeed.
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John Owens
Look it up if you think you are so smart, Winston.
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Rev. Don
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the vast majority of people who subscribe to this belief (that vaccines are bad) are the same people who subscribe to the belief that"...I read it on the Internet, so it must be true". I am related by marriage to 44 year old who has 4 young boys, a 25 year old partner, a high school education, no job or savings and he and his family live rent-free at a spare house his parents own. He too, has refused to vaccinate his sons, and is "home-schooling" his children. My fear is that one day they'll pass a coughing illegal immigrant at the mall and come down with something the majority of the world's immune systems would shrug off. The problems with this scenario are obvious to me. Being a parent involves, in the very least, acting on the best available information from educated health professionals in the interest of the children, rather than risking their childrens health by validating subscription to conspiracy theorists who spout misinformation on the web and on the airwaves, with advertising revenue their main objective. In these instances I must confess a fondness for mandated regulatory intervention.
Rev. Don the Revelator
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Daniel
Theres no need to fear since he has access to modern Medicine. Remember the times she there would be parents who would put up with a little discomfort and let their children be exposed to childhood illnesses . The human body has a richer more effective and side effect free way of immunizing people from those uncomfortable diseases. A genetic experiment on his children may not be what he wishes. Rather than condem the man for being informed and making choices that benefit his children on the individual level applaud him. Yeah he's not protecting society with herd immunity but it isn't his job to affect society its to protect his children with the best information he has on hand. As far as home schooling go.....the educational system is so broken that its almost worthless . I've seen children that were falling behind every year in the school system .1100 hours of teaching yeild an increase of .75 years . The same individual taken out of the system with 360 hours of one one one education and no public school get 2 grade levels ahead . This was replicated for a second year and now its in its third year. Accepting the norm isn't helpful it isn't even American
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Rev. How much research have you done? May I suggest: DA study helps provide an understanding of rising rates of whooping cough and response to vaccination http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm
and What the CDC documents say about vaccines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VwVBmx0Ng
Once you mandate any medical procedure or practice, we not longer live in a free country.
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John Owens
Spoken like a true big-government, socialist, nanny-state elitist who thinks they know what is best for everyone, Don.
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Daniel
Jesus was a liberal Perhaps you should be more like him
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John Owens
He was definitely NOT a modern western liberal. Liberals are by definition amoral and lean toward atheism, and believe in situational ethics. Anyway, my comment was to Don, not to you. You and I seem to mostly agree thus far, except on this last comment.
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Daniel
Oh forgot the Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Sounds pretty liberal to me
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Daniel
I am curious how you would think otherwise The only part of the republican platform to somewhat match Christianity is the anti abortion but even that is a stretch . 80% of all pregnancies wind up spontaneously aborting . So it would seem that the creature responsible for 4 of 5 abortions wouldn't be anti abortion
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John Owens
It is the lack of understanding that is liberal. Not the Savior.
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Daniel
You didn't answer my question. In what ways was Jesus not a liberal?
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John Owens
Good Heavens! How did you jump onto abortion? And who said anything about Republican? Apparently you just want to argue. Sorry. I thought you were someone else. I'm a little too busy for banter.
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John Owens
My dear man, Jesus was Jehovah, or, more appropriately, Yahweh, so your position is without foundation. Besides that, He also taught obedience to the Commandments, which are NOT liberal, and are NOT oppressive.
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Daniel
Still waiting on your answer. Be honest for once in your life and admit that you were wrong. Jesus was a liberal
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John Owens
You are a bot. Arrivederci.
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biblical scholar
Okay, John Owens just provided my favorite comment in this whole thing. He asks "who said anything about Republican" in response to Daniel when in fact absolutely nobody had said "Republican!" So I'm happy to answer your question, John. YOU brought it up :)
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Rev. Don
John Ownes,
Please put down your Alex Jones Dictionary. I can find no definition that modern liberals are amoral, lean towards atheism, or employ situational ethics in any comprehensive dictionary. Dictionaries are where definitions are found. I think you invent facts to shore up your intellectually weak & vitriolic comments. People who invent facts are people who knowingly tell things they really know to be untrue. You can extrapolate from there.
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John Owens
You guys are just punks, who fool themselves into thinking they're intelligent. NO. I didn't bring up Republicans. Daniel did, along with abortion. You guys have voices in your heads or something. I also didn't mention Alex Jones, Don. YOU did. And you're using your little pin-head code words like vitriolic. Check your glossary. Let's see, here are a few that are in your little red handbook: Spewing bile, flat earth, misogynist, Neanderthal, umm, let's see, uneducated... I'll mention some more when I answer your next idiotic remark. And YES, liberals DO ALWAYS believe and practice situational ethics and you know it, because there are no firm right and wrongs to liberals. First Daniel, and now YOU have turned this blog about vaccinations into a political bowl of rancid spaghetti.
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Daniel Swan
Uh dude... where have you been? Our ENTIRE system is amoral here in America. N.A.F.T.A. seems to have been forgotten about, besides the decimation of Americas economy, and the sweat shop labor we once stood against now in full swing in different countries across the globe by AMERICAN corporations, and barely any regulations whatsoever on safety standards or pay regulations. The Patriot Act/Homeland Security... which are completely in contradiction to the constitution. By the by.... where was the Supreme Court (which is meant to overturn unconstitutional acts or laws) when this was passed? Coffee breaks seem to be common with our Supreme Court Justices over the past 15 years. .....and uh... Corporate bailouts? Yeah... that was a REPUBLICAN (PHARISEES) who backed his corporate masters. Let's not forget the monitoring by the NSA over anything connected to the internet, or cell phone calls. Of course, the brainwashed would say "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about." I pose the same conclusion when it comes to secret societies our politicians are a part of. Whenever I hear a politician bring up God in their speeches, it should be apparent to most that politicians only bring up such things when they're about to do something completely against the constitution, the rights of the people, or commit an atrocious act in another part of the world. We wouldn't have the pollution we have today, or the amount of destruction to the planet if our corporately bought and payed for Politicians would legalize HEMP..... Gods greatest gift to man, which can literally used for ANYTHING. It's not just the liberals, friend.... IT'S ALL OF THEM. When politicians start going to prison for the same crimes we would go to prison for, or when the fourth branch of government is eradicated (lobbyists), and when they are tried for treason against America, then I'll start believing in American politics again. Our politicians are not gods, fiend. They get sick like us, they bleed like us, and they die like us, and yet they are revered as deities, with title dictating their own godhoodism. They're all bought and payed for, and they've all sold their souls to the Devil..... You can quote me on that. When they can stop hiding behind the flag and the cross for their evil misdeeds, then America will be free again. Over the past 15 years America stepped back 50 ft. when it comes to morality bud.
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John Owens
The Rant, that was a LONG rant, and you seem to think all the Establishment politicians are NOT taking baths together and having pedophile parties with each other and running around naked together. There is nothing done that is not "bi-partisan". You don't think Slick Willy and Hillary supported NAFTA? All those poop-eaters play together and try bait-and-switch to further their agenda. The Republicans want us to march in an orderly fashion over a cliff and the Democrats want us to run pell-mell over a cliff. Not any appreciable difference. While you're hating on Republicans, Democrats are raping you and making you like it. The Republicans do the same to their constituents. I've been around a pretty good while, and I've had my eyes open MOST of that time. I've been fooled before, and it made me a little more wary. None of that makes Jesus a modern western liberal. He'd say we're ALL wrong. I'm sure of that.
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John Owens
Liberals are the MOST judgemental people on the planet.
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John Owens
and Wilson, the irrational volleyball, Daniel DID bring up the republicans first. Just below, " Daniel
October 6, 2016 at 8:03 am
I am curious how you would think otherwise The only part of the republican platform to somewhat match Christianity is the anti abortion but even that is a stretch."
Thus,
you show your ignorance.
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Daniel
Free healthcare for all Feed the hungry Antiwealthy ( it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye if a needle) Peace loving / antiwar live thy neighbor
He most certainly not a conservative
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John Owens
My father was a conservative who voted Democrat. He was a veteran of WW2. He would secretly give money to a neighbor in need. I have never met a conservative who hated his neighbor or loved war or wanted anyone to starve and there is NOT ONE WORD ABOUT FREE HEALTHCARE IN THE SCRIPTURE because NOTHING is FREE. YOU have been indoctrinated. He also was NOT anti-wealthy. He just said our possessions interfere with our salvation, AS DO OUR POLITICS.
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biblical scholar
John Owens clearly has never read the Bible. Here's some examples of what it says about rich folks: Sooner will a camel pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into heaven. / Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. / No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. / Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. / For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. / For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. / But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
I could go on, but I feel at this point you have shown that you have no idea what you are talking about, you are blaspheming by saying the Bible says things that it does not, and you really need to shut off your computer and actually read the darn book before you spout off some more.
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John Owens
WILSON, you know not whereof you speak. Job was wealthy, Abraham was wealthy, Solomon and David were wealthy. Joseph of Arimethea was wealthy. Your interpretations of things do not determine truth. You are a poor excuse for a human.
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John Owens
And liberals do not love their neighbors. They pretend to, but conservatives CONSISTENTLY give more to charities, regularly, than liberals, whether you are speaking of blue-collar conservatives and liberals, or multi-millionaires. Judge not that ye be not judged is CERTAINLY not liberal thinking. Liberals judge and rant against those who do not think like them. Jesus nowhere espoused a welfare state. He did speak about individual kindness. He never spoke about murdering infants (except when He, as Yahweh, said people should NOT sacrifice their firstborn to Moloch), and He is only recorded to have fed the masses on two separate occasions and never said that free food and medicine are RIGHTS. Wilson the Volleyball of convoluted reasoning misses out on most of the Bible because he is so heavily indoctrinated that even when he reads something contradictory to his belief, it will not register with him, like my own answers did not register on Daniel.
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Daniel
open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values. (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical Jesus was a liberal by any standard
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Rev. Don
John,
You must be on a poop diet cause you sure are full of it with your irrational sweeping generalizations a laTrúmp.
Yer buddy,
Don
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John Owens
I suppose it is normal for anyone to seek validation from their Deity by reading their own beliefs and practices in to whatever scriptures they use, which is exactly what you two are doing. I pity your ignorance on this matter, moreso because you think you are so knowledgeable, and NO ONE mentioned Trump except Don. That is what goofy people do. They try to label people and group them so they can either dismiss, reject, or marginalize them. "You don't agree with me, so you are one of THEM." That is a liberal practice. Jesus Christ did not practice that. Ergo, JC not equal to Liberal.
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John Owens
Daniel, I appreciate the quote from Webster or Oxford or whomever, but NONE of that describes a western liberal in the everyday usage of the words, ergo, it does not make Jesus a western liberal. He was NOT open to new ideas. He corrected the Pharisees because He was the Yahweh who GAVE the Commandments to Moses, so He was VERY old-fashioned, in fact, MORE old-fashioned than the Pharisees. He was open to very, very OLD ideas. HIS ideas. You are trying to read yourself into Jesus. Your idea of Him probably even likes the same kind of music as you. That's normal, but not enlightened.
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John Owens
and Don the Irreverent mentions Trump, while I did not.
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Daniel
Liberal democrat Republican conservative You used the word socialist and then denied that Jesus was a liberal. I'm just asking for your reasoning for saying that.
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Daniel
Free healthcare and the Bible let me think. Hmmmm Jesus healed the sick and I'm pretty sure he didn't charge for his services
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John Owens
He used His healing power, He didn't build a hospital and staff it and put beds in it.. That is a ridiculously flawed argument. He didn't say free or universal health care, ever.
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John Owens
If we (humanity) had obeyed His commandments He gave through Moses, we would have no sickness. We would only need occasional surgery for sporting or construction accidents.
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biblical scholar
Really, John Owens?! I have read the Exodus and Leviticus stories about the commandments and nowhere have I found it to say something about never getting sick if you followed the rules. Please show me where it says that as I'm interested in having the most accurate perspective possible. It's incredible that you know something about the commandments that nobody ever has said yet you fail miserably when discussing absolutely any other parts of the Bible. I'm guessing your abhorrent lack of knowledge on 99% of the book is based on your superior expertise in the "you won't get sick if you're a good boy" bit that no one else on the planet has found despite reading it for thousands of years.
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John Owens
A) I did not fail AT ALL in answering Daniel. B) This is not a BIBLE blog. C) I wouldn't have mentioned the Bible, if Daniel hadn't called Jesus a liberal D) This is about vaccinations E) Read Exodus 15:26 and Psalms 103:3 and YOU WILL SEE THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TAUGHT SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT THERE!!
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John Owens
Jerk.
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Daniel
Again I ask how is Jesus not a liberal Please stop trying to duck the answer
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John Owens
answered several times. You are ducking the answer
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Daniel
You have not answered the question. You went out of your way to avoid answering it. Telling me how your father was a conservative and......does not answer the question In what ways is Jesus not a liberal
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John Owens
You just keep ignoring the answers and asking the question over again, because the answers do not agree with your ideology. I'm busy. You are being obtuse and somewhat belligerent. That may seem intelligent to you, but if so, you are very mistaken.
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Daniel
You have yet to answer the question. Perhaps belief in imaginary gods yields people of inferior moral character
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John Owens
Are you a bot?
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Daniel
Are you a coward? You are a liar but I'm still trying to figure out if you're a coward
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John Owens
What part of "I'm busy" don't you understand? You are obtuse. Your question has been answered numerous times, and you are still being a prick. I have to order some parts from Canada right now. So far, you are not worthy of my attention. You want to drag me into name-calling, and then question my commitment to faith. Not my first barbecue, Boy.
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biblical scholar
No worries, Johnny boy. I gotchu. I GOTCHU! Here's why Jesus wasn't liberal: 1. When hungry people asked for food, Jesus gave 2 loaves of bread and 2 fish to the richest, fattest, least hungry people he could find and let the crumbs trickle down to the masses. 2. When the sick asked for help, he first asked for proof of insurance and when they couldn't provide it, he said "LET THEM DIE" just like the crowd in the Republican primary debates in 2012. 3. When God asked him to, as a perfect human, take the burden of sin from the human race and open the path to salvation, he screamed as you did in this very thread, "NOTHING IS FREE! They have to pay the price themselves." 4. When asked about who among us is blessed, Jesus responded, "the meek?! Ah hell no. Open carry, You got to take what you want if you want to be blessed"
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John Owens
A) you are a BIG liar. He never said people should not have to work to purchase their own food. If He did, show it to me. I can show scriptures. All you have is pinko arguments. He gave them ONE meal. He did not feed them for life. IDIOT!
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Rev. Don
John,
Thank you for telling me your opinion. Respect my right to my own opinion. Thats what adults do. The insults are just uneccesary and make you look small.
Don
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John Owens
You are deflecting. You want to force people to do what you believe is right. That's wrong. No two ways about it.
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Rev. Don
Dear John,
As far as your grownup debate skills are...you approach a task requiring the skills of a miniaturist, with all the vim and vigor of a house painter. Why all the insulting, name calling and anger? I'm sorry for you. However I am quitting this battle of the wits against an unarmed man. I hope you find peace.
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John Owens
Again, I respond to attacks, and somehow I am the bad guy. It's as if you all expect me to be bigger and more magnanimous than the rest of you. Bunch of wannabes.
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John Owens
I didn't want to argue in the first place. I pointed out to you that you think you know best what others should do. If that offended you, you shouldn't have said that was your position.
Daniel and Wilson want to make Jesus a communist. That wouldn't bother me, but they want to belittle me in order to do it. That is ignorance in action. I am not unarmed, Don. You poor men are.
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Rev. Don
No, its just that you use crude, personal bathroom logic in displaying your fear of having a calm and RATIONAL discussion.This is the climate YOU ochestrated for attention seeking. So get down off your hastily made cross and talk like a big boy.
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John Owens
You are totally wrong and totally biased. I used the crude, bathroom logic in RESPONSE to Wilson. And again, you are doing just like Wilson. YOU are the one who cannot discuss rationally, because you are irrational.
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John Owens
gosh Don, you're so.... articulate! What a jerk you are
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Miranda Allison Young
Any parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are very foolish and very selfish. As this article states, vaccines do far more good than harm. There are very, very few bad reactions to them compared to what can happen without the vaccines.
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XaurreauX
"Stop Making Sense" -- The Talking Heads
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John Owens
Like the Tuskegee airmen?
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Daniel
Sheep
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biblical scholar
pig
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John Owens
While we argued over Jesus being a liberal or not, I agree with your stance on the vaccines, Daniel.
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Dreamsinger
You're right, it does take courage to admit you were wrong. It takes even more courage to not listen to paid former porn star celebrities for medical advice.
And a massive amount of courage to do the right thing, when you hear all the news stories about epidemics, and get vaccinated.
If the shot caused autism, the world would be crawling with Sheldons and Rainmans by the 1970s.
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Daniel
Actually her reasoning behind her stance of vaccines may be flawed but not her position. Most communicable diseases were eliminated through advancements in safe food and water and waste disposal. Very little if any was due to vaccinations
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Warren Taylor
Tell that to the children who don't have polio.
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Daniel
Tell that to the parents who have had children die from immunizations
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Daniel
Every year in the United States between 3,000 and 4,500 severe vaccine reactions are reported to the Centers for Disease Control," Dr. Bob Sears told CNN’s Don Lemon. "Not mild reactions. Severe reactions that land somebody in the hospital, the intensive care unit or cause a permanent disability or death."
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Daniel
I'm curious as to his long you would estimate incorporating animal DNA into our genome would produce the effects you are talking about? She is talking about the strain in his damaged immune system being accelerated by introducing toxins to his system such as aluminum , mercury, formaldehyde , various species of animal DNA etc etc etc. No immunizations do not cause autism but they can affect ab individual sensitive to those toxins to express the condition when they normally would have not. Its a complex system of genetics and environment.
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Daniel
Epidemics from third world countries with diseases that cause flu like symptoms for a fee days. Gods design is a little more effecient and harmless than mans. Everyone got childhood illnesses but now its no we can't do that we have big Pharma to look out for our welfare. If our nation was filled with the likes of you we would have never had the revolutionary war. It takes courage to ask questions and to doubt motives. Money is the biggest motivators.
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Rev. Don
My concern is for once eradicated diseases that are re emergent. Like the recent polio outbreak in Africa. When I was a kid we were given a shot, thanks to Jonas Salk, and never developed polio. I have friends who weren't so lucky. Other inncoculations were given via a sugar cube. There was no Big Pharma back in the 50's. There was a focused group of MD's trying to eradicate needless suffering via means to encourage a childs immune system to make specific antibodies to protect them. To fail to protect the future generation is just plain ignorance.
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John Owens
Lack of any controls on immigration contributes greatly to re-emergence of diseases we once thought all but dead. Zika, while not considered an old disease, is a great example. We went from zero to 940 cases in about three months.
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biblical scholar
Well, Zika is transmitted by mosquitoes and hardly ever by people. So it's not immigrants that brought Zika here, it is mosquitoes and US citizens traveling abroad. That's a nice assumption you make though, just blame it on immigrants without looking into the facts.
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John Owens
do you really think the MOSQUITOES rode from Brazil to Miami? Or is it much more likely people came and were bitten by mosquitoes? Goofball! Why don't you try looking at facts? Idiot.
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Universal Life Church Ministries
Your language and attitude are questionable for someone befitting the title of ULC Minister. Open hostility is directly counter to the values we espouse. Is there something that drew you to this church or do you simply see your role here as a "troll"?
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John Owens
The example is relevant, Wilson, whether immigrant or normal travel. Diseases do not discriminate between citizens and transients. The point is that travel restrictions are sensible and useful. You focused on the immigrant thing, and THEN made my point, talking about citizens. If the citizens can bring the disease, THE IMMIGRANTS CAN, ALSO.
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John Owens
OH yeah, Joseph, thank you. That’s another of the words from the little red book– “troll”. You guys love that word. I also love the way you guys attack and attack, and then act all sensitive and offended when someone hits back. Kinda like nagging sissies.
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John Owens
Joseph, I find your singling me out questionable. Did you not read anyone else's posts, or were they all nice and pastoral? Geek
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John Owens
Joseph, I suppose you would prefer I behave in a more mature manner, and let you JERKS just say what you want without answering, like I would any child.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
Research DDT and Polio. Why did polio cases rise when children were out of school for the summer? Because DDT sprays for the farm ran that cycle: http://www.westonaprice.org/wp-content/uploads/polio3.gif If you take time to research you will find there were two reports regarding why there was an increase in polio LIKE symptoms. DDT causes the same symptoms. One report blamed DDT the other blamed polio and put up the money to develop the vaccine.
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John Owens
OH yeah, Joseph, thank you. That's another of the words from the little red book-- "troll". You guys love that word. I also love the way you guys attack and attack, and then act all sensitive and offended when someone hits back. Kinda like nagging sissies.
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Daniel
conservative
: believing in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society : relating to or supporting political conservatismTraditional like the Roman empire You really must think of the time you are discussing
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John Owens
Just FYI, since you keep looking in a dictionary and choosing the definitions that most suit your position in this strictly rhetorical (since the outcome doesn't affect anything) argument, I feel it necessary to inform you that only about 25% of the meaning of any word used in conversation or correspondence is found in its LEXICAL definition. (Any competent student or teacher of any language should know this.) The other 75% of the meaning is found in the context in which it is used, its regional use, colloquial use the intonation of the speaker (if it is being spoken), body language, and facial expression.
Now, the visible and audible portions of this statement do not apply here, since we are using text, but the rest does, and what your position and arguments do not take them into account or even acknowledge them. If they did, we would not be having this discussion.I will respond to your future obstinate remarks as my work load permits, but I have to bear down on my duties for a little while. To quote Arnold Shwarzeneggar, "Ah'll beh bock."
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rebadams7
You should always be mindful of your child's individual needs as to when and how many vaccines to allow at any one time. These were not developed for convenience or simply to make parents lives more scheduled. Measles mumps and rubella would not only make a child sick it could leave them permanently scarred and handicapped in some cases children died. Tetanus and diphtheria are known killers. Polio is still out in the world and as people travel around it may be a case of carrying it home. Once upon a time not that terribly long ago if you talk to your grandparents it wasn't unusual for children to die and it wasn't unusual to go to children's funerals now they are rare. My children weren't l always vaccinated on the perfect schedule. I did make sure they were vaccinated. I've seen firsthand what can happen with these diseases and even if it's only a mile disability like losing 40% of your hearing. It's a condition that might've been avoided if the vaccination had been done
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Daniel
Most diseases were a result of unsafe food and water and lack of a sewage system. There have never been studies (double blind ) to test the effectiveness if vacinees nor have there been studies as to their harmful effects. The only way a physician will give a vaccine is because the federal government indeminfies them from being sued and has a fund set up to compensate those who were harmed or killed by vaccines.
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John Owens
It stands to reason that if the government protects doctors from lawsuits and has compensation funds, that's an indicator they know something has gone wrong in the past and may do so again. Those who claim the vaccines are loaded with biological time-bombs are labeled as the paranoid lunatic conspiracy theory fringe, but this says they at least have something right.
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Daniel
For instance ". Aluminum:
Aluminum is present in many things around us. It’s in food, air, water, and soil and is said to be harmless when swallowed because it doesn’t absorb into the body when consumed. Aluminum is put into vaccines as an adjuvant to help them “work better” or to “enhance” them. So what is the concern about injecting aluminum into the blood stream?
According to the FDA:
“Aluminum may reach toxic levels with prolonged parenteral administration [this means injected into the body] if kidney function is impaired . . . Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates [babies], who received parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity [for a tiny newborn, this toxic dose would be 10 to 20 micrograms, and for an adult it would be about 350 micrograms]. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration.” [Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration, Document NDA 19-626/S-019, Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act for Dextrose Injections.]And also:
“Aluminum content in parenteral drug products could result in a toxic accumulation of aluminum in individuals receiving TPN therapy. Research indicates that neonates [newborns] and patient populations with impaired kidney function may be at high risk of exposure to unsafe amounts of aluminum. Studies show that aluminum may accumulate in the bone, urine, and plasma of infants receiving TPN. Many drug products used in parenteral therapy [injections] may contain levels of aluminum sufficiently high to cause clinical manifestations [symptoms] . . . parenteral aluminum bypasses the protective mechanism of the GI tract and aluminum circulates and is deposited in human tissues. Aluminum toxicity is difficult to identify in infants because few reliable techniques are available to evaluate bone metabolism in . . . infants . . . Although aluminum toxicity is not commonly detected clinically, it can be serious in selected patient populations, such as neonates [newborns], and may be more common than is recognized.” [Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration, Document 02N-0496, Aluminum in Large and Small Volume Parenterals Used in Total Parenteral Nutrition. Available online at: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/98fr/oc0367.pdf]-
Lou Anne McKeefery
The Aluminum is very different when injected into your body than when consumed and sent through your intestinal tract. Aluminum in vaccines is intended to stay in the body so that it doesn't "forget" what it's protecting you from. Aluminum can cross the blood brain barrier and finds places to reside in every organ including the brain.
You have to add together all the vaccinations to get an idea of total toxicity.
As long as we have the revolving door between CDC, FDA and EPA and business I will not believe any of them. They are the best marketing arm for pharma and agriculture companies.
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John Owens
I would say that anyone who advocates vaccinations should also advocate breast-feeding, particularly just after delivery.
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James
Natural, environmental organic alum's? VS inorganic alum's (man altered, processed & pollutions) must be taken into account when exposures are present. FDA must be taken with a grain of salt in many cases. They are the ones that approve all the recalled drugs & foods that are at the center of recalls, lawsuits & illness as they follow government laws that only a drug can prevent or cure.
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James
@ Lou Anne... Some good words there. Cherry picked data & flawed science Pharma & gov force upon us as they see fit. It's all based on the law of "only a drug can prevent or cure". Exposures & what maybe cock-tailed with can have a HUGE bearing on unstated matters. Not a roll of the dice I'm willing to take as current Gov & corporations shield themselves from suits related to the (known & unknown) laws of cause & effect.
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Daniel
JC fits the definition of liberal almost perfectly. While conservative hardly at all. JC was antiwealthy prochoice , believed in not forcing his views on others , free healthcare (it doesn't matter that he used his magic wand or not) , feeding the hungry He fought the establishment of the time . He was for change . It's is beyond me the cognitive dissonance required to believe that most Christiand even think they are like Christ in any way. More like his alter ego the genocidal war god Yahweh . How anyone thinking man can believe Casper shoots ghost soerm I to a virgin and out pops a wizards is beyond me. The man Jesus was a semiBuddahist . You know who the conservatives were at the time of Jesus ? The Roman empire So yes Jesus was a liberal . Sorry if it doesn't fit with your convoluted reality
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John Owens
You are more full of crap than a Thanksgiving turkey. The Romans and Greeks were liberals. It is liberal of you NOT to realize that Jesus was (is) Yahweh. The first chapter of John tells us this. Other scriptures, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father," "without Father, without Mother." You misunderstand Yahweh because you have never known Him.
You sit there and say Jesus was a semi-Buddhist. You just told me and everyone else you are a heathen, a pagan. I knew that when you first jumped on me. It's okay. YOUR reality is a total fantasy, therefore, REALITY seems convoluted to YOU.
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Daniel
I guess live thy enemy was a Roman saying? Yes he was very different than the norm of Roman society . Yes he was a liberal
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John Owens
Love thy enemy was a YAHWEH saying. CONSERVATIVE, you pagan.
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Daniel
Aren't Yahweh , the holy Casper and the Buddhist wanna be all one?
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John Owens
Yahweh and Jesus are ONE, the holy "Casper" as you call it, is not a separate entity, and Buddha may have been a real human, but he died and has never re-incarnated, so NO, they are not ONE.
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Daniel
You confuse pagan and liberal. Don't you worship Holy Casper Genocidal Yahweh Buddha Jesus
Is three many or is there a requirement of more?
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John Owens
No, it is YOU who confuse, that pagan and liberal are the same. It is obvious from your blasphemy that they are the same. It makes me a little sad. Many of your posts seem sensible, but when you speak of Jesus or any god, you go off into insanity and blasphemy. I'm not judging you, but I owe it to you to tell you that you are not doing yourself or whatever cause you represent any good service by this.
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Daniel
No John I'm pretty sure that they are different words . ? Different letters different number of letters and a different arrangement of letters. The conservatives of the time were the Roman . The early Christians were crucified and had to practice their new magic in secret. Jesus was totally different than the conservative Roman (which was the entire empire) You don't like being wrong but please have some intellectual honesty
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John Owens
YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A MENTAL CASE. CALLING the Romans conservative does not make them conservative. In fact, the original discussion was not about conservatives at all. It was about Jesus not being a modern western liberal (socialist democrat). As for honesty, what on EARTH would a pagan agnostic know about honesty? What motivation could they possibly have to BE honest, when there is no real god to hold them accountable?
And, no, I don't like being wrong, but I readily admit when I am. I just don't happen to be wrong here, even though you probably think I am in the minority. I just don't mind being the lightning rod for puffed up wannabes who think because they read something that they actually KNOW something.
The Roman used government to tax and to discriminate, just like liberals want to do. The Romans did not want the subjects to carry arms, just like the liberals. The Romans wanted a strong central government, just like liberals. YOU are definitely not intellectually honest, but you ARE pseudo-intellectually dishonest.
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Daniel
You don't believe the dictionary a good source on the meaning of words? What definition would you rather use ( please keep it to a reference book)
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John Owens
I love the dictionary. I love books, period. I have great respect for them. I used to read a LOT, but now my eyes get too tired. About a half hour at a time maxes me out. But, you are missing the point. Back to my last post, the dictionary can only give you about 1/4 of the meaning of a word. You know the word liberal can mean more than one thing, like the word gay, or the word bristle, or the word prick, or the word grass.
In the King James Version (1611?), the word liberal means generous, sharing, not greedy, not stingy, empathic. That is NOT what it means today, and you know that. Jesus (God Almighty, Yahweh) IS generous, IS sharing, IS empathic, IS NOT greedy, IS not stingy. He was perhaps liberal in the KJV sense of the word, but not in the modern political sense of a western European or American liberal. The Bible says, "the soul (body) of the liberal shall be made fat." That is NOT referring to politics. This referring to personality on an individual level, NOT a political philosophy.
I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, but I cannot resist. I have to do some more work, but as Gen. McArthur said at Correguidor, "I shall return."
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Maureen Tighe-Brown
Food, water, & sewage have nothing to do with causing the communicable diseases: measles, mumps, chicken pox, diphtheria, polio, & the flu. Period. Look it up on Google & Wikipedia. Get your children vaccinated.
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Lou Anne McKeefery
The point is that when you're body is healthy, food water and sewage control offer healthy environments. Then you the body can successfully recover from the illnesses. For some good information, research polio and DDT.
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Lisa E.
AMEN!!!! The people that don't vaccinate are putting everyone at risk and may be the cause of long ago eradicated diseases coming back.
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John Owens
Again, if the vaccine is worth a crap, how is NOT getting it putting anyone else who DOES at risk?
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biblical scholar
Amen John Owens. That's the perfect logic. If vaccines are soooo successful, then what's the harm in my kids not having any? And for that matter, if seatbelts are soooooo safe like big polyester would have you believe, then why are you scared if I drive 70mph down the wrong side of the street?
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John Owens
Nice logic you have going, there, Wilson. Extrapolate to the ridiculous and well beyond. Vehicular recklessness and vaccines have so much in common.
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John Owens
Here's another way to look at it, Wilson: The rest of us use toilet paper when we go to the bathroom, and wash our hands, but just for illustration, let's say you don't do either of those. Now, that's just nasty, but it won't hurt YOU that we DO use paper and wash, and as long as you aren't preparing our food or drink or touching us at all, it won't hurt US that you DON'T.
That's a little more accurate than your driving metaphor, but again, the discussion is about VACCINATION. I would say, vaccinated people should have nothing to fear from UNvaccinated people, if the vaccines are effective. The UNVACCINATED, however MAY have something to fear from those who are vaccinated. The vaccinated person is MUCH more likely to be vector with no symptoms than the unvaccinated. Isn't that logical? -
Patty
John Owens herd immunity protects the ones that can't be vaccinated. Ever seen a case of lock jaw? I have I have also seen polio and children dying from scarlet fever, measles, and small pox so please get off the soap box stop believing everything on the internet and take a peace corp stint and see what happens to kids and adults that do not have access to vaccines.
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John Owens
Patty: If the herd immunity protect the ones that can't be vaccinated, then the herd has nothing to fear from those unvaccinated. I'm too old for Peace Corps, but I've been around enough to know whereof I speak. I also insist, there are other factors besides vaccination involved. If a group has access to vaccinations, they also have knowledge as to the other factors. I suppose there may eventually be an HIV vaccine, but if a group knows there is a risk, and knows the risk factors, they can perform preventive measures and get by without the vaccine.
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Daniel
Sanitary condition improved because disease vectors were reduced. Its not rocket science. In fact if you look iylt up communicable diseases decreased in direct relation to those factors before the introduction of immunizations
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Daniel
Yes I know the Romans and Greeks were not liberals they were the conservatives that crucified the liberal
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John Owens
They were the EPITOME of liberals. They worshipped many gods, they had sex with many people, including children. They had slaves. They were democrats.
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Rev paul
Agreed
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James
Refusing to vaccinate kids? BUT, on the other hand partakes of the goodies of western diet (cell phones & enriched foods), and all the other aspects of what permits ailments to take hold. That process not work in a logical way. To be OFF-GRID & avoid vaccines, one must do healthy things to prevent these ailment. Western medicine & vaccines are designed for ppl who (for the most part) partake of the western lifestyle.
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Let me check something... a Playboy model start this “death cruzade” because of her child has autism? And she said that vaccines are guilty of that? Ok, let me see, she didn’t consider in some point that her life style in certain point on her life influence in his child condition? Everybody knows what that lifestyle implies: drugs, alcohol, even sexual diseases! Maybe she could overcome the situation, but body has memory and those diseases can really harm babies, specially with autism. Please, stop to become famous stupid people... catholics and religious fanatics following a Playboy model “ideas”? Are you kiding me?