The Red Cup Controversy - Starbucks declaring war on Christmas?

Pastor George Day

Janet DeMar,

God bless you. Do you have a carer at home?

Pastor George Day

Cabbage,

Hannukah is in December, not September. That is Sukkot!

pastor mary

Beautiful!

Charles Lee

Preach!!!!

Pastor George Day

Gwendolyn Lord,

So you're a goddess. Can you walk on water and calm the storm?

pastor mary

You are great!!!!!! Can I post this to my fb,lol. Just kidding. I'm a health care worker too, 12 patient care, always helping others in need. Trained one of my dogs for service after the first one was done with the help of a trainer. Constantly putting others in front of me. Your a part of a rare breed it seems. Couldn't agree with you more .

pastor mary

????????

pastor mary

I'm Christian, but not like them. I have a very open minded personality. And I appreciate ppl and their beliefs, and your right. It's embarrassing to be a Christian cuz of the individuals that are idiots. I be sure to tell ppl I'm not closed minded like the rest

Charles Lee

Amen!!!!

pastor mary

Amen. I was brought up with Santa, Christmas elves, 8 tiny reindeer. The nativity as I got a grew older. My mom decorated the day after Thanksgiving, with everything from the above to everything beautiful about winter. But we always appreciated everyone's beliefs. As an adult, I love to learn about other cultures. I love to learn PERIOD. just my opinion? Everywhere we go, people are different. We should learn about each other instead of fighting over beliefs and red cups.

Charles Lee

that is all well and good but December 25th is not the day Jesus was born!!! Please get the facts straight.

cullyann

More than anything, Christians and other religions are trying to force the other to be like them. They are probably afraid of anyone not like themselves, especially with so many Muslims emigrating to the US.

This country was not designated as a Christian nation by the founding fathers. Everyone in the US is entitled, constitutionally, to believe whatever they feel is right for them. At the same time, everyone is also entitled to believe in nothing. We are never going to make everyone Christians. It can't happen. ISIS intends to make the world Muslim; that won't happen either. It's impossible. And it's ridiculous. How boring would the world be if everyone thought the same?

Something as small as a coffee cup is as inoffensive as you can get. Anyone who doesn't like it can choose to buy their coffee elsewhere. There are people who own Starbucks. That ownership gives them the right to use whatever cups they want. I don't see any Jewish people ranting over the cups not having a menorah on them. Why should Christians have a hissy fit over no Christmas patterns on them?

Seems like people don't have enough to think about. It is just a cup.

Rev. Brien

Amen. I too wish for a day with family and friends, and for the most part I do manage to get some time for that, but I do believe that retail has just gone out of control. Just an opinion.

Jailyn

It never was, never should be. I say that as a Christian.

Minister Rob

The USA has NEVER been a Christian nation. The USA is supposed to be, by law, a melting pot of tolerance for diversity. The Bill of Rights enumerates the right to freedom of religion. Read your Constitution, Leatherneck. The concept of a god is not necessarily Christian either. Many non-Christians believe in a god or creator. Learn about world religions from unbiased sources on Youtube.

Charles Lee

Amen!!!!

Debra Battles

Well said. I am getting tired of all this selfish wining.

As I remember back to my childhood, I recall cards and songs saying "Happy Holidays". In 1962, Andy Williams recorded the song "Happy Holidays". I know social media back then was non-existent and wonder if his beautiful song would have been boycotted.

I am a 50's baby and I always thought that Happy Holidays meant Christmas and New Years. So in our growing multi-cultural society if it encompasses all others traditions, so be it.

If we express our upset and anger over something so silly, we are in the infant stage of ISIS, Hitler, and Bin Laden, only to name a few. It will only be a matter of time until a crazed organization arises.

But also with our changing society, I do believe we should close our borders to all. Not for prejudiced reasons, but for the sole purpose of taking care of our own. Some 21 million children live in poverty. Social security is taking a nose dive leaving our seniors living in poverty and our Veterans coming back from war and getting inadequate care. No matter what country you look at, there is poverty. When we can take care of and fund ourselves then we should help others.

Arthur Fischer

People should look into the origins of Christmas. Many like myself have found that is is from a pagan origins. You won't find Christmas in any Bible, because Rome celebrated the birth of their god on the same day many celebrate today. The Christmas Tree comes from Germany, and we all know there is no Santa so why mix in another fantasy? In Matthew 2, we read that the Magi went into the house and saw the young child and yet today three men are placed at a manger! Need I say more about a common day. The Bible makes it very clear that death is more than life. The scriptures tells us that we are to rejoice, not celebrate! Our Messiah was born to die for all of mankind, not for people to celebrate His birth on a day no one knows about! There is no mention anywhere on the day He was born on, so why of all days is it in Winter! Israel has Winter too so again He could not have been born in December anyway. Luke 2 tells us that the shepherds were out in the fields at night keeping watch over their flocks. They would not do that in December at night, it's too cold at night that time of year for the flocks! So check it all out and find that all of this is just paganism. I know about religious freedom and yet the Bible speaks of One Faith, not many religions that we do have here. Even non-believers celebrate this day of pagan practice and man made traditions.

Rev. Brien

Again you use the term "so called christian" as if it is a bad thing to be a christian. Maybe it is those types of views that are making people defensive. I do not care about a coffee cup. I do care when someone tells me that I cannot say "Merry Christmas", as if doing so will somehow cause a tear in the fabric of space. It is simply a well wishing, a greeting or a parting, that is all it is. Yes, the ritual of Christmas has been christianized, but that does not mean it cannot be celebrated by all, and in celebrating togetherness will not make you a christian. I have friends who celebrate Kwanzaa and I join them. I have friends that celebrate hanukkah and I join them. I do not see either one of those traditions being attacked EVERY year. My point is, these holidays are meant to be a time of peace. We need to treat them as such and stop the arguing. If you have to have a negative opinion as to whether or not someone says merry christmas or happy kwanzaa, then you truly have missed the point and NO amount of discussion will help you. Merry Christmas and have a safe holiday season

Rev. Jo-An Josephine

I agree with you Charles and to answer Brien's query, I believe the term "so called" Christians is because a REAL Christian does NOT make such demands on other people. They are humble and does not disrespect another for their beliefs.

P.S. a little info about the colour red around Christmas time. The colour red and especially a RED SANTA was introduced in the 20's by the Coca Cola Company to boost sales during the depression. Coca Cola is predominately RED. So again....who cares it's just a colour on a cup!!!

Pastor George Day

Charles Lee,

Christmas is the season when we remember Christ came to save us.

You do not wish to be saved.

Charles Lee

I think corporations have a right to decide how they want to officially greet people without narrow minded children getting upset because they don't agree

Pastor George Day

Carrie,

Merry Christmas to you too!

Bob

Red is my favorite color so they can use these cups year-round. Watch the Charlie Brown Christmas - people may learn something. Christmas is in your heart not on a cup. And Xmas is not disrespecting Christ because the "X" is not an english X but the Greek 'key'. I celebrate "Christ"mas on April 5th because that is the date scholars believe is most accurate-it's also my son's birthday. But it doesn't matter when Christ was born what matters is He was born.

Charles Lee

at last, an adult. Precisely it is all about respect our diversity and the choices of other. Starbucks has the right to put what they want on their cups.

Marcus

It does sort of suck when people stop pandering to you specifically, but it certainly doesn't constitute an attack.

Rob

Who is the one to deem what is offensive and to whom?

Pastor George Day

Alvin Jones,

Why are you shouting??

Charles Lee

It is just a few people being childish. Who cares what Starbucks puts on their cup. I mean, seriously people!!!

Randy C. Ford

In a way, there is a war on Christmas. It's a part of the "war on Christians." Please, let me explain. I'm going to avoid discussing doctrinal aspects and religious motivations and stick with social and political ones. This is an attempt to explain why reasonable people see it as a head-on attack.

The United States was founded on principles of individual rights. Of course, those rights have not been uniformly recognized or protected, nor are likely to ever be. Those with more power are better able to be "protected." Also , many won't see that a minorities Rights are being suppressed due to their limit views. There are always those trying to take what others have, and those people don't respect anybodies Rights unless forced to. We live in a land with a "perfect" concept of Rights, with a limited ability to protect them, especially for the weak.

In this imperfect society, as a "democracy," larger blocks of voters find it easier to protect their rights. Money and other power also helps. It's also much easier to defend a Right one already holds. In this country, the "Christian" religions have had the largest hold. I'm grouping, for this discussion, all "mainstream" groups that have "Christ" as the central figure.

With the advances in communication has come an increase ability of smaller groups to spread their knowledge and ideas. Groups that have felt that their Rights have not been protected have more ability to voice their views. That has lead to increased abilities to gain new people to their groups, and to raise the awareness of their concerns to others. The court system has also become more active in following these cases. This has resulted in more groups having their Rights protected and more awareness of others Rights.

This has, of course, affected the larger groups, especially the largest group: Christians. There was a time when, in many areas, almost everyone stated that they were Christian because they wanted to avoid anything from negative views to persecution or death. The fear may have been misplaced, or only a few radical people may have been a threat, but the fear and possible outcome was real. Some groups even had a policy that members were to join some mainstream religion to remain out of sight.

The "hiding" was effective. Most people didn't see the other groups, even if they were "main-stream, accepted religions." I've heard this question, "Which religion are you, Methodist or Baptist?" There were other groups around--the questioners were ignorant, stupid, or insensitive, but it shows their expectations.

Who would seriously argue against the city putting up a Christmas display, other than a "radical" who was recognized as a Christian? That isn't to say that everybody was insensitive, but rather saw Christianity as just a part of almost everyone's life. Everybody, other than some small Christian groups "celebrated" Christmas and Easter, even if they never participated in any other religious activities. Most people, even if not "raised in a Church," and never having been active in one, still believe that Christianity was the "true" religion; it was the only one they knew.

Now we live in an age where those beliefs are no longer "universal." People object to Santa Clause, even though Christian groups haven't taught that had anything to do with Christianity. He is part of the "secular" celebration. However, to many non-Christians, he is just part of the Christian religion. Few Christmas parade floats have symbols recognized by Christians as being a part of their religion, but other groups fight against the parades themselves as a symbol of the Religion.

While many consider these "secular" struggles to be a part of a "war on Christmas," there are more important ones that are not as straightforward, not as benign, that are influencing Christians to react more strongly to small actions. The most obvious is that Religions that are militantly biased against Christianity in other parts of the world are increasing and becoming better known here. The obvious example is Islam. There are other groups that have been know mostly through children's stories, but are generally threatening there, such as forms of Witchcraft. It is not as threatening, but groups using the same name are discussed in the Christian Bible.

Another reason for the belief in the "War" is that there is one. There are groups of people who work diligently at attacking the Rights of Christians, Rights that would be protected in any other group. Some of these attacks are performed in the court system. It's even more commonly done by threatening groups with limited resources with court action. We see these in the news frequently.

There is a lie that is being propagated that businesses can't have religious beliefs. It has always been the case, long before Europeans settled here, and has been reiterated, even recently, in Supreme Court rulings, that an association of individual has the same rights as the individuals. Most religious groups, from churches to denominations, are corporations. Those groups have the same Right to Freedom of Religious Speech as those who hold the corporations do. Individuals who work for companies, including corporations, have their own Rights as well.

An individual working for someone else retains their rights to Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech. They can refuse to perform an action that violates their religion. The company can legally refuse to perform actions that violate their owners religious beliefs. A state couldn't legally force businesses owned by people with a religious restriction against handling pork to make pork sandwiches. It's a simple legal principle.

However, one sees threats of legal action against individuals and businesses to have them remove Christian symbols and phrases. The legal action would ultimately fail, but the cost of fighting it could destroy the business. One of these pushes is to prevent employees from saying "Merry Christmas," because "it violates the customer's Rights." Hint: we have a Right to Freedom of Speech, not a Right to Freedom to Not Hear other's Free Speech in public. An employee has a Right to not say "Merry Christmas" if it violates their religious Freedoms. An employee has the Right to say "Merry Christmas" to other employees.

Another area where a lie is being used to attack religious activities is the "Separation of Church and State." It isn't in the Constitution. Look for it. It just isn't there. What is there is that the Congress can't pass any law regarding the establishment of religion, and that individuals have Freedoms of Religion and Free Speech. Everywhere forms of the word "establish" is used, it refers to establishing something, not to something already established. Congress can't pass a law that establishes a Religion. There were already many religions in the colonies. Congress can't pick one, or, in my opinion, decide if something is a Religion. They can't stop me from forming a new one.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Congress can't pass a law favoring one religion. They do not, however, have to entirely separate themselves from religion. We see today that the members of both houses use their "association" freedom to have prayer. People being sworn in can use their choice of religious articles. There is no such thing as "separation of church and state" in the US. It is a lie. It is a lie that is being used to attack Christianity. Gov't can participate in religious activities as long are they are willing to do so in similar ways with others.

We see old memorials being forced to change or be destroyed at gov't expense because they contain religious symbols. It is probably illegal for gov't funds to be used for that reason, especially if the monument was erected with private monies. They may, where practical, have to allow other religious groups to erect their symbols.

I completely believe the government must not choose any religion over another, and must protect the Rights of all citizens. What is going on, however, is much more than that. It is an attempt to remove all symbols of Christianity, even those of historical importance, and to prevent the government from in any way acknowledging it, even though it has been an influence since the beginning.

The effort, thanks to President Obama, seems to have been strongest in the Military. When I was there, all religious symbols were considered sacred. Going to religious activities were worked in however possible, such as by changing watches stood. All religions were handled, well, religiously.

From what I've seen, that has changed. I read that military bands were stopped from playing at religious events, including Christmas ones. People are being reprimanded and discharged based on displaying religious beliefs. Remember, the Draft could start back tomorrow. The military is being converted toward rejection of religion instead of acceptance of religions. I know that most who join the military do so to protect the Rights of others. In effect, we gave up most of our Rights for a limited time to ensure that others could keep theirs. However, there is no need to take away the Right of Religion. The Chaplains were the people you could always turn to. Not only would they try to help you, they were also held in a separate sphere where they had the power to deal with the outside matters. Now, based on numerous media reports, they are being limited in what they can talk about, including their personal beliefs, "so they won't offend people."

Atheism either is or isn't a Religion. If it is, people have the same Right to it as any other; if not, then there is no Religious Right associated with it. Either way, there is no Right to keep others from practicing, talking about, advertising, or displaying their Religion in public. Freedoms are limited where they intrude on other's Freedoms, not when the other person doesn't like your Freedom.

Privacy is a Right, too. All Rights, including those mentioned in Amendments, are always held by the Individual. Specific Powers are listed and granted to the government. The government can exercise those Powers, but can't give Rights, because it has none. Nor can it take them. Invading Privacy, if used to determine Religion or Religious affiliation is also an attack. Requiring one to list their religion is an invasion of Privacy. Obamacare, like Social Security, requires one to prove their religious affiliation to get certain exemptions: Few Christians are eligible. If a certain group can hold a religious belief, so can anybody else. A simple statement that it is against one's belief is all that could properly be asked, but if that would be sufficient, then the issue should just be voluntary anyway.

While most people are not consciously a part of suppressing religions, many are. Many are being indoctrinated into believing the lies so they can be more effective and used against others later. Once an attack is successful against Christianity, it can be turned to other religions. Even if you trust the ones attacking now, will you trust later groups from using that attack system against any other group? That is part of the war to purge selected religions; Christianity is the biggest target.

Arthur Fischer

Everything about Christmas is from a pagan celebration of a Roman god. Our Messiah was not born on December 25th. and the Romans did celebrate the birth of their god on December 25th. Also according to Matthew chapter the Magi went into the house and saw the young child. which means they did not go and see a baby in the manger! There is no mention of how many Magi there was and what they gave was not for His birth! When presented to a King they give their respects by giving the King the gifts that are significant for the King. There are no Christmas Trees in any Bible, You don't read anywhere of the Messiah or His followers celebrating their birth for they knew that birthday celebration is from a mixture of pagan and magic! Only two people in the whole Bible celebrated their birth. Pharaoh when Joseph was in prison and Herod of the New Testament. Both men were evil. Even the Messiah was not a Christian, why are you?

C@

I believe there are some people who feel religiously persecuted because people having other beliefs makes them nervous. I will never tell people what religion I am because after I do, they look differently on the words that come out of my mouth.

I can't weave my words adequately enough other than to give a "for instance". When I say Happy Holidays, or Season's Greetings. It's because I don't celebrate the same way everyone else does and I am trying to be polite. What I dislike is people correcting my polite behavior by saying "NO! It's Merry Christmas".

I feel like if I were to tell people what I believe (especially lately), I would not be employed (among other problems)- I would be a pariah.

Never have I felt so AFRAID to share my beliefs with other people. That's the kind of issue I have with society right now. (Some) Christians feel so persecuted they are lashing out at everyone and everything that opposes them (so it seems).

I think that is the bigger issue than "CUPS". Actually when I saw their all red cups I thought it was part of October 11th support for the GLBT community, and I was behind on the times.

As for "lawn decorations" mentioned by Randy, I have to say you must have felt pretty persecuted to start your reply by "you are full of it", it made me... almost... discredit your really thought out words- you had a good argument up till that point. I think the lawn decorations is a moot point. Debate it into the ground and you'll never get anywhere. You feel your tax dollars are used well for decorations and someone from another religion feels shafted their tax dollars aren't represented in decore in the same manner- save every tax payer declaring their views (maybe in a census) on decorations that is a waste of time and energy. Where both people are right and wrong in their own ways but it's NOT WORTH debating.

I try to be mindful, people don't mean to walk on my views we are just becoming more sensitive about our differences.

For this holiday season (which includes the New Year) I hope everyone takes "Happy Holidays" not as something offensive but at it's true value- an intention of wishing well, that you will enjoy all your holidays (New Year, Chanukah, Christmas, Hanukkah, Winter Solstice, Festivus, Kwanzaa or simply family time - unintentionally may have left something out).

Thomas William Cornfield

you are so right but what away to increase sales

Bill

We as Christians do not force anything on anyone, we offer the truth nothing more nothing less, if you are so inclined take a peek at revalations it will tell you what you new to know, then look at John 3:16.

Bob Anderson

When facism finally comes to America, it will be wrapped in an American flag and carrying a bible.

Ken Waters

Correct!

Robert Blackler

the cups are red and green to me that represents Christmas

Monty

As a Universalist chaplain, I don't feel there is a war on Christmas. We all know and understand what Christmas is about, even with a tree, presents, egg nog, etc. The coming of our Savior did not require Christmas decorations and lights. For those that got up in arms about the red cup, if your faith is that dependent on a cup you need to take a hard look at your faith.